Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)

[DLRiley]

Abyss points seem to determine abyss rating which in turn determines who the server gives demi-god mode to. Now i heard items which i think needs abyss points too can also give demi-god mode but not nearly as much as topping the Ranking chart.

[amiable]

Higher ranks are also limited so there can only be x of so many ranks on a server.

Basically the game is predicated on having a ton of casual players the more hardcore can farm in order to maintain the pyramid structure.  It seems to me if you play this game for casual PvP you basically exist solely as a tool to increase some chinaman's peen (dude, the preffered term is Asian American).

Maybe I'm misreading this and it works differently when the game goes live, but I think this system is really going to encourage a lot of abuse (point farming, buffbots etc...) and that is what I am hearing you see a ton of on the Korean servers.

[Segoris]

I honestly think limiting the # of max rank is a good thing. Not everyone is the #1 person, earn it if you want it.

Even without all the casuals, the system can be in placed via farming Balaur, or with the hyeinas that are the kids with 20 hours worth of time to invest in pvp per day killing each other, the system will still work. Casuals are given other avenues to gain points if they really want to use them (quests and Balaur killing) so trying to earn points for that new weapon doesn't automatically have to be done by competing against people with huge gear/rank advantages. 

As for buffbots, I'm finding that one hard to believe since most buffs are duration based and/or proximity based (iirc). If someone wants to go back every 30-60mins for a health buff then more power to them. It's just going to get dispelled anyways by people who have a dispel spell and actually know their abilities. Other things like point farming has been done in both DAoC and WoW anyways, nothing new there. Hell, it was incredibly easy back in DAoC and that was probably the worst I've seen for points farming.

[amiable]

Well, we'll see.

To be honest I have heard this song and dance before:  "Oh it won't be THAT difficult for casual players, they have ways around it."  This usually comes from folks who belong to serious catass guilds who are online constantly grouped with fellow catassers and really have no conception of what play is like for the dude who logs in a few times a week for an hour at a time.  Said casual is then repeatedly ass*^($ until they give up in frustration.  But hey, maybe this is the exception.

(Note, I do not consider myself a "casual" player by anymeans and I am much more likely to fall into the "catass" group than the "casual" group).

[Draegan]

You can farm Abyss points via PVE instances and other things as mentioned already.

The Abyss gear is like best in slot Ulduar gear in WOW.  People still have fun without getting it in WOW don't they?  There is very good crafted gear you can get after too.

[Phunked]

It's roughly analogous to giving people who get Gladiator rank in WoW the ability to go divine mode and one shot all non-gladiator ranked people every so often.  That sounds like fun. It won't be at all the case that the first guild to get a gladiator ranked PvPer will control all future ones. This has never, ever, ever happened in ranked PvP systems. Nope, not once. Not in WoW, not in DAOC, nowhere.

Yeah, capping the number of high abyss ranked people is a good idea. Why not just make it take a long time if you're casual? I mean technically, any number of people can PvE catass to best in slot gear in WoW. How many actually do? But it at least gives the idea of "potentiality". Knowing that you can't /ever/ get Jesus mode because you're not friends with chinaman-uber grinders guild 54 is totally gonna up the replay value.

If I bothered, I probably *would* catass my way up to RR whatever it is, but I think this is a moronic idea, if only because it'll discourage all the casuals who you're supposed to farm relentlessly from even bothering with this system.

[Segoris]

Edit: Forgot to warn that link is to mmorpg.com's blog site...although it is way above par for most stuff found there

Good info blog/post on the Abyss

[Falconeer]

Some people like rankings. What's wrong in wanting to be number 1 in a game? Seems to me that many of these games give plenty of things to do and opportunities to everyone. Then, on top of that, they have one maybe two mechanics that give single players or guilds a chance to compete in order to have the top spots. And there's always someone complaining about not being able to get everything.

Potentiality. Well, screw potentiality. How terrible can it be to find out you can't be among the best? It's a game and there's lots for everyone, "democratic" rewards and some competition based ones. You sound like a basketball player angry with the NBA for not granting you the potentiality of getting a Championship ring. Silly analogy, but what's wrong in giving the rings to only one team every 12 months?

[amiable]

If I bothered, I probably *would* catass my way up to RR whatever it is, but I think this is a moronic idea, if only because it'll discourage all the casuals who you're supposed to farm relentlessly from even bothering with this system.

Thank you phunked, that is exactly the point I am trying to make.  It doesn't matter if you can "PvE" to get Abyss points, because the hardcore will be setting up gank squads to grind YOU relentlessly.  Because of the pyramid system getting high rank in this game is going to require:

A.  A almost 24-hour multi-player account where folks take turns playing the charcter.
B.  Mercilessly exploiting some bug/farming/etc.
C.  A combination of A+B.

On top of that you NEED casuals to farm, I used to see this in WoW constantly where folks would avoid even fights like the plague because they "took too long" and slowed down the PvP xp grind.  In this game it is going to be wore because once you hit a certain rank you are going to avoid ANY situation where you have even a minute chance of dying.  

Now I'm not saying the numbers/prep game doesn't have it's place, but this game isn't being marketed to the EvE crowd, it's being marketed to DIKU folks.

[Falconeer]

While you are able to attack anyone of any level, you will not know what level the people on the other faction are.  This makes for some interesting encounters where people misjudge the strength of their opponent.  In one personal experience, a bunch of us ganged up on a single enemy only to have him obliterate all of us by dropping a meteor on us!

Oh, the memories...
Where can I preorder? Wait, I did it a month ago


Also:

One final point, spending points you have earned subtracts them from your total, thus reduces your rank.  This means as people purchase items, there will be a constant moving up and down the RvR ranks, and high rank players will have to decide if they want to give up their rank abilities to cash out their points for weapons.

[Morfiend]

I am a huge fan of PVP and RVR and all that stuff, but honestly this system sounds like ass, and if it works like advertised, I think it will probably be what ends up driving me from the game.

[amiable]

Silly analogy, but what's wrong in giving the rings to only one team every 12 months?

Because NBA championship rings are basically ornaments whereas high end gear in a DIKU (and in this one in particular) turns you into a juggernaut of destruction irrespective of your individual skill?

If, like in the world of real sports, titles/awards have zero effect on play I would agree with you. If hitting rank 1 only gave a title/ornamental appearance buff I would say more power to them, great system.  But in this game PvP rank matters tremendously as you get new skills. abilities, equipment, etc...  and adding a pyramid/loss structure to the system practically builds in a "rich get richer" component.

[Falconeer]

Ok, I agree, but I think you are definitely exaggerating on the juggernaut thing. The higher rank a player is, the bigger the rewards for whoever kills him. The more he gets killed, the more he drops in AP and rank. Leading players will have crosshairs on their backs.
More, because of this system the lower ranked players have lots to gain and not much to lose, while the opposite is true for higher ranked ones as dying make them lose their harder-to-keep ranks. Can't really see a rich get richer future in this.

Seems like a system conceived to have a very active ladder. The thing that you "spend" rank by buying equip and abilities sounds interesting too.

[Hoax]

I'm really amazed that this has been a top seller on Steam for the last two or more weeks.

[DLRiley]

Your assuming that the rank 1 player is a solo'er.

[Hindenburg]

Leading players will have crosshairs on their backs.

Actually, it's more likely that leading players will be avoided like the plague, like they always are.

[Falconeer]

Hey Hindy, I love you, but you are a PvE player, so what do you know?  

[Draegan]

Leading players will have crosshairs on their backs.

Actually, it's more likely that leading players will be avoided like the plague, like they always are.

Are you kidding me?  I'd be gunning for his ass if I saw him. 

[Hindenburg]

So you gents would risk your abyss points to try and take down someone that you know has a far better chance of killing you than you of killing him?

you are a PvE player, so what do you know?  

I'm a min/maxer first. Killing the weak always provides better honor per hour.
When you saw a GM/HWL in wow you didn't think "omg, must kill", you thought "fuck, i'm about to be farmed so the next guy on his team gets HWL"

[Koyasha]

A system where top ranks are limited could work, I think, as long as people are constantly required to use their points in order to use their abilities.  It sounds like that may sort of be the case here, but I'm not sure.  They mentioned in the above link various devices, but didn't mention how you get them.  Things like those temporary respawn points, siege weapons to break down the doors and so on.  If purchasing these costs points, and you can only get the most effective ones if your rank is high, then you will be constantly losing points because in order to win you need to spend points.  If you can buy them at low rank then people will make specific characters for the purpose of buying them so their mains don't have to spend points, of course.  The Balaur also may or may not throw a monkey wrench into things because they could be set up to hunt down high ranked people and focus more attacks on the fortresses of highly ranked legions.

As for the GM/HWL thing, I usually DID see people trying to go after the Grand Marshal/High Warlord (or sometimes potential candidate if the person was well known to be going after the rank).  And it wasn't TOO rare to actually kill the target from time to time.  But it was pointless, because their team would still win the match and they lost nothing from dying.  In the Aion system they do lose something from dying so the tendency randoms have to dogpile on the big target is detrimental to them and if they die they actually lose something.  If you didn't think 'omg must kill' then you're one of the more rational people who realized that killing them isn't going to make a damn bit of difference as to whether you won or lost the match, and it isn't going to actually inconvenience them in the slightest.

[Falconeer]

I understand Hindenburg, but this is not (yet) WoW, dammit. Not saying it will be different not saying I am right (hell it has yet to be released), I am just saying you all read too much into some generic blog stuff. Of course there's room for lots and lots of fail. But to compare and nitpick every single line you read with every other game you played sounds premature. And I am not pointing just at you Hindenburg.

Finally, many of the things that are being nitpicked and mocked here are just loved in a different, noble country and by people with different habits everywhere. So while I understand everyone's preemptive concerns, a bad game is one thing, while a game for people with different tastes is another.

[amiable]

So you gents would risk your abyss points to try and take down someone that you know has a far better chance of killing you than you of killing him?

Exactly....  For such "avid PvPers" you seem to have very little knowledge of the behaviour of folks who actually participate in these ladders, I guarantee the following:

1.  Once a character has hit a certain rank you will NEVER see them in a PvP zone outside of a group of similarly ranked players.
2.  If 2 such groups were to encounter each other they would AVOID getting into a fight because of the serious possibility that thye might lose, damaging their rank.
3.  They will spend the entirety of their time looking for solo/small gorups that are far inferior to themselves in order to maximize abyss point gain/time.
4.  White knights like yourselves who look for "good fights" will never make it to the higher levels because groups using the above tactics will always outscore you.
5.  This isn't even accountig for the collusion that will occur at the top ranks on opposite sides so folks can maintain their ranks.

[tmp]

So you gents would risk your abyss points to try and take down someone that you know has a far better chance of killing you than you of killing him?

If i understand it right the higher amount of accumulated points/rank, the higher the chance to actually "drop" some of these points on death. Which would mean pretty much any player with large amount of points is going to have wolf packs of low ranks hunting him -- the risk for these players to actually lose something is low, while potential payoff if they're the one who manages to get the credit for the kill in the zerg is huge.

edit: as far as the 'uber players with god mode switch go'... consider these players are basically EvE titans with a catch that's rather than take long minutes to hunt down, immobilize and kill it can take just few seconds of focused dps. I.e. much, much easier to defeat. Yes, they can kill a lot if their doomsday ability is up, but this kind of power player is definitely not "always avoided like the plague". The potential grief one can cause such power player by killing them and making them lose that power is enormous draw for many.

[DLRiley]

High levels with even higher rr/abyss points/whatever you call it, travel in groups, most travel in large groups. Anyone but a fanboy who spent 3 minutes in that type of game mode would notice that. Throwing yourself at a group of high levels, when only one of them is needed to solo 5-10 of you is a moronic idea no matter how much loot they drop.

[tmp]

Throwing yourself alone at a group of high levels, when only one of them is needed to solo 5-10 of you is a moronic idea no matter how much loot they drop.

Fixed.

[amiable]

Throwing yourself alone at a group of high levels, when only one of them is needed to solo 5-10 of you is a moronic idea no matter how much loot they drop.

Fixed.

As stated above such groups will:

1.  Run at the first sign of large opposition and
2.  Never fight equal powered groups because of the threat of loss.  

Mark my words, you will never have the opportunity to fight high ranked oppositin on a "fair" footing.  Ever.

(Also in general the highest ranked folks will be members of classes witht he best escape options, see EvE:Vagabond).

[Draegan]

Some perspective:



Also read this.

From what I understand you get a ration of AP much like EXP.  If you do 10% damage to a target you get 10% AP from the death.  It actually works on the exp end of things in the game.

If your group does X% of damage to a target your group evenly splits X% of the AP points.

The higher the rank the more points you get from the kill.  The abilities given don't automatically give you the complete edge in a fight.  Also of course players of high rank are going to try to keep it.  But not being ranks 14-18 doesn't really take away from the game for me. 

[Falconeer]

What's your point, naysayers? Whoever gets the top first will stay there forever?
From how you put it, whoever becomes n°1 first will NEVER get bumped. I guess the same rules apply to n°2, and then n°3, and so on.
Please. Pyramidal PvP systems have been working in south Korean games for a while and you can't keep quoting WoW which simply, as Koyasha pointed out, had a different way to handle honour/abyss points and ranks.

If what you are all trying to say is that to get to the VERY BEST spots will be close to impossible for everyone but a very few skilled/no-lifed godly catassers slash players, then we agree. But if you are trying to say the system will basically lock the ladder because of all the reasons you quoted, so no one in the low tiers will ever get better and no one in the top ones will ever lose ranks, you are just wrong.

Hard, yes. It is meant to be fucking hard, a thing for a handful of players out of a full server! Impossible? No.

And finally, all this bullshit in a game where factional open PvP is the key, not Battelgroudish Warcraftesque crappy sport-like stuff.  

EDIT: some engrish

[DLRiley]

South korea land of the pve'res...just saying.

[Draegan]

And finally, all this bullshit in a game where factional open PvP is the key, not Battelgroudish Warcraftesque crappy sport-like stuff. 

There are those nifty instances where you race against the other side in a PVE dungeon.  I think it's an interesting idea.

[amiable]

Falconeer,  I totally understand your enthusiasm for a PvP oriented game entering the market, I'm enthused too, and I think I have decided to play solely on that basis and the fact that it is a stable and beautiful game.  But if there is one thing I have learned from F13 is that just because you are excited about a game doesn't mean you shouldn't critically examine it to determine where it is going to fall on its face.

In general introducing PvP loss into a DIKU game results in far less PvP than in games where there is no loss.  In general ALL players are risk averse, and creating a ladder system just takes that to its logical conclusion.  I hope I'm wrong.

[Draegan]

You're not losing gear or anything at this point.  Just points and rank.  I don't know how people get bounced out of rank though.  If one person drops out of points who's next on the waiting list?

[tmp]

As stated above such groups will:

1.  Run at the first sign of large opposition

In a game with long range crowd control, an ability to pull people into melee range and where spike damage kills anyone in few seconds? Good luck with that running, especially every time it happens. That first sign of large opposition is often quite likely to be the high rank guy in question keeling over.

(Also in general the highest ranked folks will be members of classes witht he best escape options, see EvE:Vagabond).

But what escape options are there in Aion, exactly?

[amiable]

But what escape options are there in Aion, exactly?

Oh, lets see the ones I know are in the game off the top of my head:

Stealth
Run speed buffs
AoE stuns
potions for removing roots
dispels for removing roots

A combinaiton of any of the above...  Decent groups are always, always going to have an escape plan.  See DAOC and EvE,

[tmp]

Some perspective:

Something interesting about that table... since it only lists one slot for 'supreme commander', i'm guessing the available slots are listed for one side. That means 2744 * 2 = room for nearly 5.5k players on any server with these 'officer' ranks. Quite a lot.