A stupid idea I had a long, long time ago

[Nebu]

What about this idea:

1) There are unlimited levels. (some type of skill point system)

2) Each level the risk of dying increases. 

Seems like there's a risk/reward that would make for an interesting dynamic. 

[Typhon]

Give people a reason to play hardcore other than just the challenge.

The entire point of playing hardcore is challenge. Challenge and bragging rights.

I was saying "hardcore" when I meant "permadeath", as they were synonymous in this conversation.  Permadeath generally equals hardcore in MMOs because people don't want to lost their characters.  Which is kind of unfortunate because permadeath can resolve some other problems (e.g. can't fight wars of attrition if people don't die).  I'm suggesting that permadeath can be inserted into games like these, with the benefits they bring, if people feel that the time spent with a hardcore character isn't wasted.

Rather then the only use of permadeath/hardcore is to staple it onto a otherwise complete game to give a subset of players a "hard mode".

[Famine]

I was saying "hardcore" when I meant "permadeath", as they were synonymous in this conversation.  Permadeath generally equals hardcore in MMOs because people don't want to lost their characters.  Which is kind of unfortunate because permadeath can resolve some other problems (e.g. can't fight wars of attrition if people don't die).  I'm suggesting that permadeath can be inserted into games like these, with the benefits they bring, if people feel that the time spent with a hardcore character isn't wasted.

Rather then the only use of permadeath/hardcore is to staple it onto a otherwise complete game to give a subset of players a "hard mode".

I think there has to more thought put into "hardcore" than just that. Having that high of a risk only leads to less quality player-versus-player game play as people will generally not fight unless it's ganking (i.e.: not logging on unless they can completely overpower you). Thus to me, permadeath is not hardcore in that sense. 

[schild]

I don't understand. Hardcore Mode is absolutely defined by Permadeath. What are you saying?

Did I miss something? I might have.

[Typhon]

I really not explaining what I'm talking about clearly, sorry.  I'll try again and then shut up if you'd like.

Hardcore) The 'hardcore' concept frequently (ok, mostly) includes the concept of permadeath.  I find the "hardcore" concept to be tacked on, and because it's taked on I think it's not done very well.  I think if you want a game like that, make that the core.  Something like Dungeon Crawl Soup.

Permadeath) While permadeath is mostly synonymous with hardcore, it does not need to be as permadeath adds many desirable elements (or removes undesireable elements):

+Brings tension to gameplay.
+Allows for wars of attrition.
+Makes a world-reset resonable (even required)
-DUDE I LOST MY FUCKING STUFF!!!1!

Mostly, the last point wins - the exception being in hardcore mode and games that feature permadeath (where hardcore is the only way to play).  What I'm talking about is making a game where characters that experience permadeath are part of the gameplay, but that players accept it because playing those characters brings some advancement.

Different ways to think about it (though not the only way):

In this game "battlegrounds" involve larger space, and take days/weeks/months to win.  Characters are created specifically for the battleground.  Players have an 'avatar' that gains points via the player playing in battlegroudns (with hardcore/dead-end characters).  These points are used when creating characters for certain battlegrounds.

Edit: trying to explain the concept better

[DLRiley]

That tension your talking Typhon is the feeling a player gets after logging off and considering to uninstall. However you are right in your second point. World PvP without a death penalty is pretty sad to watch. Having a death penalty is the only reason EvE pvp feels like a war. But I might want to remind you that your no longer building a game at that point.

[Famine]

I think if you want a game like that, make that the core.  Something like Dungeon Crawl Soup.

Permadeath) While permadeath is mostly synonymous with hardcore, it does not need to be as permadeath adds many desirable elements (or removes undesireable elements):

In this game "battlegrounds" involve larger space, and take days/weeks/months to win.  Characters are created specifically for the battleground.  Players have an 'avatar' that gains points that can be used when creating characters for certain battlegrounds.

Not to sure I see eye-to-eye on that myself imho. There has not been many references to this in our genre so it's hard to say if that fits in what would be considered hardcore. Although it's obvious it's an extreme when it comes to systems that deal with player-versus-player (PvP/PKILL). For me at least, hardcore is defined not by one element or one core element but several elements. Then of course what you're referring to with developing around one major core element is something that would not be as fitting I think. Like for example, I believe a rule-set coupled with supporting system designs developed to work as a balance would be ultimately considered hardcore in the general eye. Those systems in that example are what I feel is lacking in today's gaming. Not because they are poorly designed or poorly executed but because there are many limitations that are uncontrollable to the end user like client and server lag. Then it falls on the "omgneverdonebefore" category with something fresh or new!

 

[Bzalthek]

I really like the idea of permadeath, though I was never a hardcore ladder type player.  It just reminds me of the good old days with D&D.  But, in today's world, would permadeath work with a PvP type MMO?  All I can see are 20+ man gank squads where some internet community decides it wants to press 'delete' on a game.  I don't see at as conducive to the sustainability of a product.

PvE on the other hand is another story, though the terms raider and hardcore would have to be disentangled.  The 'learning curve' of encounters is measured by deaths, it seems.

[pxib]

I've been thinking about why permadeath works so well in the roguelikes (including such unconventional entries as Demon's Souls) and so poorly in most multiplayer games, and I believe the answer has to do with the particular variety of competitive interaction. Dungeon Crawl and its ilk are, in competition terms, like a race rather than a game, as much as you may be playing concurrently with other adventurers, you are largely competing with yourself. It isn't a zero sum. You can lose and still improve your personal best score, or experience some new aspect of the world... then use that improvement or that experience as a jumping off point to advance further next time.

Your victories are not someone else's defeats.

Talking about failure in Moria or Angband is so much fun because you're educating yourself and other players to potential hazards, in addition to subtly referencing how much you've already achieved. Death isn't a loss in the win/lose sense because the point of any individual game isn't winning, it's dying well.

In multiplayer PvP, your failures almost always benefit the enemy more than they benefit you. They succeed by making you fail. Your loss is their gain. Not only does death destroy you, it strengthens that bastard who killed you. You could keep fighting him, but unless you've had a major brainstorm or he got very lucky, he's just going to kill you again. At best, you've learned some important lesson about timing particular abilities, checking you six, or not going out alone... at worst you've only learned "don't fight THAT guy", and in return for that wisdom you've given everything you owned to some lousy latency-abusing jackass.

Any permadeath PvP system must unify these two ideas or the constant stream of failures to the benefit of competitors will be frustrating rather than fun.

[DLRiley]

Any permadeath PvP system must unify these two ideas or the constant stream of failures to the benefit of competitors will be frustrating rather than fun.

I hate to point this out you ARE right about the nature of permadeath in multiplayer and single player games, but your aiming piss at the wind if you think you can meld those together. By its very nature any permadeath system in a multiplayer game where your not just in competition with yourself, must be under the consideration that permadeath is NOT your source of fun. You must JUSTIFY permadeath in your game under the pretext of realism at best, but never act like its suppose to be a source of enjoyment for the player.

[pxib]

If character creation is quick and simple, progression isn't grindy, gameplay is fun, death is entertaining (think Burnout, Team Fortress 2, or Offroad Velociraptor Safari), and the rewards available for killing you aren't particularly high... I believe permadeath could be quite an enjoyable way of making a graveyard full of amusing stories and screenshots.

Other than that we're in complete agreement. Unless your whole game design addresses the wind direction, designers and players alike are going to get a misty facefull.

[DLRiley]

If character creation is quick and simple, progression isn't grindy, gameplay is fun, death is entertaining (think Burnout, Team Fortress 2, or Offroad Velociraptor Safari), and the rewards available for killing you aren't particularly high... I believe permadeath could be quite an enjoyable way of making a graveyard full of amusing stories and screenshots.

Other than that we're in complete agreement. Unless your whole game design addresses the wind direction, designers and players alike are going to get a misty facefull.

But, but your not making an mmo at that point 

[pxib]

I don't see why it couldn't be MM or O. But yes, it wouldn't look like any pie currently baking.

[Lantyssa]

The more persistence the more losing the character will hurt in a PvP scenario.  It doesn't have to exclude MMO, however MMO + PvP + long-term persistence is going to be either nearly impossible to balance or appeal only to a very small set of people.

[ajax34i]

Sorry for the necro, this is still on the first page and is interesting.

I think there's a better approach than separating the permadeath characters onto a different server, or offering a "hardcore" option just for bragging rights.

Design the game so each toon gets access to 90% of its powers / abilities at character creation or very soon thereafter, before there's a chance that they'll be killed by a random asshole.  Have "progression" in the game be determined just by the areas the character gets to, or by the story/quests, and not by level or by equipment (much).  Don't block areas; let players progress through a series of zones (or a few / 1  chapters of the stoy), and if they get killed, let the next character they create start off at the point where their previous character died, if they wish to do that.

I think that a game where characters can be perma-killed but the player's advancement through the game-world is bookmarked would be fun.  It's how we play pen-and-paper: if my character dies, the DM will let me roll another one and somehow insert it into the party so I can continue playing.

[Tarami]

That's kinda the worst of two worlds when it comes to persistent MMOs. Casuals (who are also bound to die more often) don't get as attached to the character and the hardcores don't actually get permadeath.

What works in PnP doesn't necessarily work in MMOs; PnP RPGs are collaborative, while MMOs are largely (very) competetive.