ECM nerf sighted

[Thrawn]

According to the Game Devolopment forum you can expect some nice buffs to stealth bombers and a completely backbreaking ECM ship nerfs -

Falcon & Rook


The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges.

Summary Falcon changes

- ECM Strength Bonus increased from 20 to 25% per level
- ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed (52km optimal / 81km falloff w/ 2*SDA IIs)
- Increase in general manoeuvrability (might give agility bonus to it to replace the ECM optimal range bonus)

The rook operates at longer ranges, able to attack at distance and whilst having a weaker ECM strength but longer ECM range than the falcon can lay some real damage on its target gaining a heavy/heavy assault and standard missile velocity bonus in addition to a small drone bay for additional utility.

Summary Rook Changes

- ECM strength bonus decreased to 15% per level
- ECM Optimal Range bonus decreased to 15% per level (92km optimal / 81km falloff)
- 5% Heavy/Heavy Assault missile velocity per recon ship level added (105km range with heavy missiles at max skills)
- 25m3 drone bay / 25 mbit bandwidth added

The Scorpion


We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal.

Summary Scorpion Changes

- removed the ECM optimal range bonus
- increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level
- added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level.

Yay, I can do DPS in my Scorpion now and I have to get in lock range of everything to use a Falcon!  Awsome!

Maybe this is how they'll make T3 attractive, they'll just nerf the hell out of everything thats currently used a lot.

[Fordel]

Well it isn't surprising, since it seems half the ships in any given sized fleet are Falcons or wannabe Falcons.

[Pax]

I'm quite pleased by this.
Everyone having a Falcon alt has long reached beyond stupid levels.

Now to the really important news - Stealth Bomber are getting a buf... ~change~.
Giving them more dmg potential is a good thing, though I'm not sure, if point blank range is going to make them attractive.

[Thrawn]

While I don't disagree that ECM needed some adjusting the usuall CCP heavy handed approach to just nerf it to hell isn't suprising.

[bhodi]

Falcons needed the nerf. Everyone agrees with that.

Scorpions getting hit with splash damage is really unfortunate and as a whole it seems the ECM nerf wasn't well thought out. Forcing them to be closer-range but not compensating them with armor bonuses means that no one will ever fly them in fleet fights. That means no one will fly caldari in fleet fights, since missiles/torps still aren't useful. Suggesting that maybe they should be up close 'brawlers' is either ignorance or sheer stupidity. They have 4 launchers. FOUR LAUNCHERS. And no ranged bonus.

Stealth bomber also works out to be a nerf. You used to be able to one-volley cruisers. So now, instead, you can shoot torps at battleships, take down a third of their shields, and still be destroyed in one volley. The reason SBs suck is their 1k EHP and their requirement to be within 25k or so of their target. Switching to torps doesn't help either of these two issues. It's a nerf because the switch to torps also eliminates the ability to hit smaller prey.

[Fordel]

I don't even know how ECM still exists.

All the other forms of CC have workarounds and their counter mods are useful even if they aren't actively countering the CC.



ECM is a random binary switch that completely neuters 95% of the ship load outs in game AND it's counter module is ineffective and virtually useless when you aren't being ECM'd.

To say nothing of the awesome fun of being unable to do anything but rep yourself while being locked out.

[Endie]

Nobody fly Caldari?  It's just another buff to MY ROKH. 

(not that I ever seem to get jammed, but being as much as three times as far away as the best ECM ships reach makes me immune and them useless).

[Predator Irl]

Nobody fly Caldari?  It's just another buff to MY ROKH. 

(not that I ever seem to get jammed, but being as much as three times as far away as the best ECM ships reach makes me immune and them useless).

Only a matter of time before CCP nerf Rokhs too. Eventually we'll all be flying the same ships, they will just look different! But then the noobs will be complaining that someone else's ship will look better than theirs, so CCP will change them so they are all identical.

[Sir T]

I remember when I used to Fly 3 ECM Dominix setups. Good god those were fun.

What people don't realize is that they are bitching about the ECM... that's already been nerfed from the original! Basically ECM modules used to have double the jammer strength. It was changed nearly 2 years ago to the current version, and the only think that stopped Falcons from becoming commonplace was the Nanofags.

That said I had great fun with ECCM fit Domis against falcons in my time... 

[slog]

Great, I'm 21 days from a fleet fit scorpion too....

[eldaec]

Scorpion change looks stupid.

wtf is a brawler?

Falcon and rook changes seem reasonable though.

[Endie]

Scorpion change looks stupid.

wtf is a brawler?

Falcon and rook changes seem reasonable though.

I dunno, I think the rook should be able to operate another 40-50km out from the revised figure: close enough that small fast stuff can get to it and lock it down between cycles if it just sprays all its ecm out at once, but far enough away that it has a pretense of a tank.  Remember that nobody flies rooks now because even at very long range it dies a lot.

The falcon will just never be used.  In another year or 18 months they'll actually revise it again to give it some means of defence, but no range, no tank, what looks like mediocre speed and manuevrability for a ship that will be primaried instantly?  Strictly a gate-camper's ship for ganking with alongside dps stuff.

The scorp looks similarly doomed for most situations: the stronger ecm is just compounding the situation where it will be used (set up on a gate with a bubble and webbing/scrambling tacklers so it is not at risk).  You would have to be an idiot to fly them into fleet fights, now: they'll be sitting up front with the poor minmatar...  I'd seriously be amazed if they'll survive long enough for their cruises to hit the target, let alone a RoF boost to count.

[Predator Irl]

If they are going to buff the Rook, they should at least give it a similar tank to the onyx to make it useful. At least that way they would be used in fleet fights. From what I can see, CCP are trying to remove ECM from the battlefield. It makes no sense!

[Jayce]

Great, I'm 21 days from a fleet fit scorpion too....

Looks like this thread just saved you 21 days.

[Trebes]

Scorpion change looks stupid.

wtf is a brawler?

Could they be trying to turn it into the rough Caldari equivalent of a Megathron but using close range missiles? That's what "brawler" sounded like to me, from my understanding of the Megathron.

[Amarr HM]

I for one am happy with these changes always felt the Falcon overpowered when compared to other Recons. Though it looks a bit heavy handed (CCP vOv) & I agree with Endie I think 100km would have been a good compromise.

[Thrawn]

Actually it appears that CCP is tweaking the changes already, didn't catch exactly how though.

[Murgos]

Actually it appears that CCP is tweaking the changes already, didn't catch exactly how though.

I think Falcons don't change in any appreciable way from how they are today.  Scorps, although somewhat closer range than before will now have significantly more strength.

I think that with a careful setup Scorps may be the new hotness.  With a close to 19.xx strength they will be able to with, almost 100% certainty, perma-jam any BS.  It works out to something like a 93% chance per module where Falcons will max out at ~60%.

Rooks end up somewhere in between strength-wise but shorter distance.  Oh, and Falcons are now rail boats.

I wonder if the actual point of this change has nothing to do with 0.0 and everything to do with Sleepers?

[Viin]

Interesting. I can see a solo-gank setup for my Scorp really easily with these changes ...

[bhodi]

OK, so CCP backpedaled on a lot of the ECM changes. Why the fuck they don't have an internal testing department to vet the more retarded ideas I'll never know.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.03.25 15:58:00 - [596] - QuoteReport

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the constructive feedback so far!

In the first pass on sisi, we will look at the falcon and rook with their suggested roles switched as many of you suggested so the rook will be the "brawler" (short range ECM strength bonii) and falcon will be the weaker but longer range "sniper" varient.

The skill bonuses and other changes to the caldari recons will then look like this:

Rook:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% Bonus to Light & Heavy Missile Velocity per level
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per Level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
5% bonus to heavy and light missile kinetic damage per level

Attribute Changes:
+25m3 drone bay
+25mbit drone bandwidth

Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
20% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range per level
5% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level

Attribute Changes:
+1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint

Scorpion

The scorpion remains unchanged from the original suggestion for now. Whilst this change would make them less usual at long range jamming, they can still jam out to ~140km using their falloff (setup for ECM range) so whilst their role in the long range scenario is reduced, their new short range scenario is much better.

The Widow

Forgot to mention it would be getting an increase in ECM strength bonus same as the scorpion. Will make a seperate post on black ops themselves.

I will update the original post with these changes in a minute. There is no ETA on when these changes will be on sisi for testing as we are currently testing for Apocrypha 1.02. Some time after that is deployed to TQ, then we will move sisi to a version where you can start to playtest these changes and we will continue to monitor feedback and make more tweaks as needed.
--

The tl;dr version of this:

Rook: Close in small gang ECM support. Fairly very strong but still made of tissue paper and is intended to fight in around the sub 50km range. Might actually be useful now for roam/gatecamp work
Falcon: Pretty much unchanged from where it is now. Standard GF falcon remains cap stable with the removal of the cap bonus. Effective range reduced to around fleet sniping distances
Scorpion: No longer a 250km beast. Effective range reduced to around fleet sniper ranges.


Consider ECM much like autocannons now - you're always going to be in falloff. This has the side effect of making ECM very, VERY powerful when at close ranges (<40km), even more powerful than it was before. Also, due to the way falloff works now with ECM, 'easy jam' targets will no longer be able to be permajammed as full falloff has a 50% chance to miss regardless of sensor strength. I suspect this means that people will jam more battleships, less HACs, and won't jam cruisers at all.

[Jayce]

Maybe CCP took a note out of Blizzard's book:
1 - announce ridiculous nerfs
2-  let people whine
3-  tone down until whining subsides
4-  look like the hero.

[Viin]

Aww there goes my gank scorp.

[Phildo]

Jayce, that's been said before.  It's never what happens.

[5150]

Since no one else appears to have posted this yet:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1032703

I'm unhappy about this for several reasons:

Falcon nerf (which appears to be what the whiners actually want) != ECM nerf which is what CCP appears to be heading towards

The Dev posting the thread clearly has no idea what these ships are or how they are used currently (unfortunately I believe the original post has been updated so you wont get to see the original ideas for the 'sniping ECM' Rook with a drone bay and the close range 'brawler ECM' Falcon with added agility!

and yes I'll admit this is the first time I've been on the pointy end of a serious nerf (I started ECM back when it was crap so it's only been buffed so far for me)

[Quinton]

Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2).

[5150]

Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2).

Ah sorry my bad - didnt check there because this change is apparently still away off yet.

[Yoru]

Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2).

Split that out of there, and into here.

[Sir T]

Hmm... I can see people using heavilly tanked scorps with these changes and just dump ECM. I've often felt that with 8 mid slots you could shove a massive shield tank on one and use it as a missile chucker, ignoreing the ecm or have one ecm module on it. That could have a role in a fleet, but it might not be too different from say a Raven if you try that.

[Fordel]

Do ECM ship bonuses effect those weird ECM 'Burst' modules?

[eldaec]

If they really want the scorp to be a brawler....

15% radius bonus to energy pulse weapons and ecm burst modules.
10% capacitor use bonus to energy pulse weapons and ecm burst modules.

[Scorpion, stupid smartbomb theorycrafting]
Warp Core Stabilizer I
Warp Core Stabilizer I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
ECM Burst II

Large EMP Smartbomb II
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Large EMP Smartbomb II
Large EMP Smartbomb II

[eldaec]

Do ECM ship bonuses effect those weird ECM 'Burst' modules?

Only on a Scorpion.

[Fordel]

I always liked the idea of loading nothing but FoF and those ECM Burst modules.


It's probably a comedy kill mail waiting to happen, but dammit, it would be neat!

[eldaec]

Smart bombs do more damage, hit everyone, and won't get laughed at (as much).

[Fordel]

Do FoF's hit friendlies?

[Pezzle]

Last I remember FoF are not supposed to hit friendlies but they still might bug out and do so.