Looking to play a MMO...

[patience]

If you want to play a text based MMO that isn't a mud but a stratgy game I suggest Utopia or Dominion. 

[Cheddar]

I want to try Lineage 2 

Can anyone refer-a-friend me? Email is viewable in my profile.

Invite sent.

[eldaec]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing the Lineage 2 calls their scheme 'refer a friend'? I mean, if someone is your friend...


EDIT:.....sorry, too easy, and now I can't think of anything meaningful to add to stop this being a worthless reply. Maybe there is a message there about Lineage.

[Hindenburg]

Look at it this way, if you like a friend and want him to stay outta drugs, would you offer him flour or cocaine?

[Pennilenko]

Look at it this way, if you like a friend and want him to stay outta drugs, would you offer him flour or cocaine?

The cocaine.........I don't really have a lot of friends though.......

[Signe]

I don't understand the question.  You would have him inject flour rather than cocaine?  How is that friendly?

[Jack9]

Who would want to be injected with either?

[Signe]

I don't know.  I don't do drugs.   

[damijin]

Who would want to be injected with either?

I can find you a small army of people who slam coke to answer that question.

Anyhow, L2 is a cool game. It gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention here, and some of it is deserved, but a lot isn't.

The only real problem with retail is that it's been long overrun with powergaming botters who really cheapen the feeling of the great political PvP game that is really there. Private servers are notoriously more strict about botting, some even going as far as to ban players who log on two characters at the same time to 2-box, insisting that if you want to have that buffer in your group, you better damn well find a real human to play it. These servers have nothing to lose by banning, because they aren't taking subscription fees. The retail version of L2 decided long ago that its business model was to utilize cheaters as a revenue source.

Aion will go down the exact same path. Because I played L2 for so long, I have many friends who botted in it, who know people who made their livings farming that game. Right now there is word that one of the most renowned Greek farming groups from L2 is playing Korean Aion beta with over 140 botted characters being operated. There is already a very functional Aion bot that will seem all-too-familiar for people who have seen it's Lineage predecessor.

NCSoft has chosen this path. Private servers have proven that if they truly wanted to, botting could be all but eliminated, but it would require banning a gigantic number of customers. NCSoft doesn't think that is the best way to operate their business, so make what you will of that.

[Gets]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing the Lineage 2 calls their scheme 'refer a friend'? I mean, if someone is your friend...


EDIT:.....sorry, too easy, and now I can't think of anything meaningful to add to stop this being a worthless reply. Maybe there is a message there about Lineage.

Wasn't worthless. I laughed sincerely.

As for not so worthless MMOs. Sorry, I can't think of anything perfect right now and I've tried a few myself in the past. The indie MMO scheme hasn't gotten its head out of its ass yet, but I'm still hoping. Can't stand any level grinding myself anymore. I realised WAR was just doing me a favor by dropping me off the server randomly after a few minutes logged in. If you can stand min/maxing however, then I'd suggest Runes of Magic, which is nothing other than a free version of WoW with heavy RMT and farmers. Lots and lots of farmers. I suspect the devs are farmers even, since you can buy stuff from the cash shop if you whore enough, or so I've been told by a RoM addicted guildmate.

If you like RoM's gameplay, but just can't find the strenght to whack large mushrooms over their anime-smiley faces, then the next logical step would be to try WoW instead. Do the trial until the level 20 cap with some random partymembers, if you can find a high level person then do a dungeon that's usually too hard for people your level and be a loot-slave, keeping the good equipment and throwing away the not so good, because you have no backpack space. Seriously, can you please return the option to place items on the ground? Please? No?! Go suck a lemon then!

Now, if this doesn't suit you, it's time to try something completely different and get someone to give you 21-day EVE trial. Ah, EVE, you've kicked me, beaten me, but still I've crawled back, and even though I know you'll do it again after I let my guard down, I'm too much of a sucker by now not to have a need to know what your next move might be. Why EVE? Well, there's the F13 crew keeping things afloat. We're pretty happy of what we have achieved and our wealth is lovingly spread among our possible recruits, which you can't enjoy in WoW for example, because trial characters can't accept donations. They can in EVE though! The first month is still fairly tricky and non-rewarding, as you have to do Learning skills to not gimp your progress, which sucks since it's just a timesink that might deter you from wanting any future progress at all. The newbie experience has been simplified and improved just recently, and I'm happy CCP has concerned themselves with this, but it would be nice to get feedback from actual new players.

Thankfully, EVE is a sandbox game. For new players it's like being thrown into a pool, but you've never swam before. Except there's seven types of flesh eating fish there. Oh, and it's not really water, it's some sort of flammable acid. But really, I would have quit playing, but we have some pretty darn great people in our group, people that have managed to carve out something for themselves and they let other people share the experience (with some minor prereqs). Goals are important in EVE, as you're pretty much the only one making them. There's a lot to do and a lot to see, but you have to understand that much of it is capitalised by bigger entities, because EVE is as much a sandbox as it is a social game. And a PvP game! I honestly don't know any other video game that has gotten my heart race.

I think it's important to read some EVE stories while you go through the boring bits of the game. No one's going to lie to you, there are people in internet spaceships that would rather make your life boring and frustrating, but having a perception of the whole universe by reading war stories while autopiloting or having Spelunky open on a second window while you chill and shoot control towers can help get through those.

[Slayerik]

Freeshards? Really?

Jesus Christ people, why don't you just go ahead tell him to download TinyMUD.

The part of this you aren't getting is I met Chin on a UO Freeshard called Metropolis, and a few other f13ers are in on the joke. We had fun for a while there.

[Morfiend]

Anyhow, L2 is a cool game. It gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention here, and some of it is deserved, but a lot isn't.

ORLY?

[Nebu]

Anyhow, L2 is a cool game. It gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention here, and some of it is deserved, but a lot isn't.

Do the words "soul-crushing grind" mean anything to you?

[Cheddar]

Anyhow, L2 is a cool game. It gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention here, and some of it is deserved, but a lot isn't.

Do the words "soul-crushing grind" mean anything to you?

Actually, a lot of that has been mitigated through a sweep of changes.  I am actually enjoying myself and levelling at a decent pace.  According to reports in now takes 1 hour to hit 20 - not sure how they measure that, but evidently quests give a fuckton more XP.  Plus equipment is a lot more accessible.

Also, northern part of Talking Island has gold laying everywhere tonight!  Not sure if its from a bot or what, but it was a nice surprise!  Its EVERYWHERE.

So, in a nutshell - no longer a kick in the dick, more like a slap.

[DLRiley]

Who would want to be injected with either?

I can find you a small army of people who slam coke to answer that question.

Anyhow, L2 is a cool game. It gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention here, and some of it is deserved, but a lot isn't.

The only real problem with retail is that it's been long overrun with powergaming botters who really cheapen the feeling of the great political PvP game that is really there. Private servers are notoriously more strict about botting, some even going as far as to ban players who log on two characters at the same time to 2-box, insisting that if you want to have that buffer in your group, you better damn well find a real human to play it. These servers have nothing to lose by banning, because they aren't taking subscription fees. The retail version of L2 decided long ago that its business model was to utilize cheaters as a revenue source.

Aion will go down the exact same path. Because I played L2 for so long, I have many friends who botted in it, who know people who made their livings farming that game. Right now there is word that one of the most renowned Greek farming groups from L2 is playing Korean Aion beta with over 140 botted characters being operated. There is already a very functional Aion bot that will seem all-too-familiar for people who have seen it's Lineage predecessor.

NCSoft has chosen this path. Private servers have proven that if they truly wanted to, botting could be all but eliminated, but it would require banning a gigantic number of customers. NCSoft doesn't think that is the best way to operate their business, so make what you will of that.

I think the butt sucking grind generally prevents me from playing L2. If there is political based pvp, or pvp at all in L2, it doesn't exist in any significant way.

[Nebu]

So, in a nutshell - no longer a kick in the dick, more like a slap.

Damn, your mmo ADD is worse than mine.  Did you quit LotRO already?

[damijin]

Here's the thing about the L2 grind that everyone forgets to mention:

Yes, it takes a long time to hit the top level, but you don't need to get there to get to the fun. Lower level characters can PvP amongst themselves and fight over territories and castles that have little or no value to the higher-up clans. The real truth is that L2 is *far* more casual than raiding in WoW.

Yes, it will take you a lot of hours to become a super-star. But you can do it in bite sized chunks. Log in, play 2 hours, log out. Rinse repeat. From what I've seen of my WoW-raiding friends, they wind up being *forced* to play for much longer durations, negatively impacting other facets of their life (not like losing jobs, but more like "Ah yeah, I gotta head home guys, raid tonight" instead of hanging out).

So yeah, L2 takes a long time to reach the end, but there's a lot for you to do on your way there, and you can do it at your own pace, rather than being forced to be online at certain times of the day to raid for several hours.

(Disclaimer, I've never played WoW past level 32. Maybe lots of people play it without raiding, I dont really know.)

[Cheddar]

So, in a nutshell - no longer a kick in the dick, more like a slap.

Damn, your mmo ADD is worse than mine.  Did you quit LotRO already?

No.  But I do need a break every so often, and for the last week LoTRO has been randomly rolling me back by 1 hour every single evening. 

Which sucks when most nights you have 1.5 hours of play.

[DLRiley]

Here's the thing about the L2 grind that everyone forgets to mention:

Yes, it takes a long time to hit the top level, but you don't need to get there to get to the fun. Lower level characters can PvP amongst themselves and fight over territories and castles that have little or no value to the higher-up clans. The real truth is that L2 is *far* more casual than raiding in WoW.

Yes, it will take you a lot of hours to become a super-star. But you can do it in bite sized chunks. Log in, play 2 hours, log out. Rinse repeat. From what I've seen of my WoW-raiding friends, they wind up being *forced* to play for much longer durations, negatively impacting other facets of their life (not like losing jobs, but more like "Ah yeah, I gotta head home guys, raid tonight" instead of hanging out).

So yeah, L2 takes a long time to reach the end, but there's a lot for you to do on your way there, and you can do it at your own pace, rather than being forced to be online at certain times of the day to raid for several hours.

(Disclaimer, I've never played WoW past level 32. Maybe lots of people play it without raiding, I dont really know.)

WAR or AoC isn't grindy compared to WoW. Yet people left it in droves because of the grind. Not being as grindy as WoW's end game shouldn't be a game designers goal. Not being grindy should be in and of itself a goal for a developer, otherwise I don't care if you have flying unicorns shooting rainbows from their ass.

[damijin]

I disagree. Grind is attractive to many people. If a game requires far too much brain attention, you wont be able to play it for very long without getting mentally exhausted. A good grind system with proper social structure is ideal for players to hang out, mindlessly hack away, and socialize amongst themselves while they explore the world.

But that's just my opinion. See, to me, MMOs are a social space first, and a game second. If I want to play something that isn't grindy and loaded with achievement for repetitive tasks, I'll play... well... just about fucking anything else. The anti-grind crusade is retarded.

[Sjofn]

Raiding in WoW is a looooot more casual than it used to be. People who've been raiding since the 40 mans bitch about it all the time, it's so much more friendly to the normies than it was. 

[Nebu]

Grind is attractive to many people.

Aren't those the people we mock and giggle at here?

[damijin]

Grind is attractive to many people.

Aren't those the people we mock and giggle at here?

I guess I'm just not a part of that inclusive "we". Enjoying grind isn't the same thing as catassing and pissing your life away. Grinding can be done in small little bits at a time, it only means that you are repeating a very similar task to advance your character, often a task that requires very little attention to be paid. I personally have always subscribed to the idea that one of the two following things should be included in every MMO if it wants to have a strong, self-sustaining community.

A) Mindless grind.
B) Downtime (includes travel downtime).

If you don't have one of those two situations for your game's character advancement, you leave the player with no chance to talk and socialize. They are constantly too busy managing their current encounter to have a conversation with the other players. Your community will be weak as a result, because strong bonds will be much tougher to form. I can see how a lot of people favor the downtime of running around over the downtime of watching your character kill monsters, but really thats just a different-strokes-for-different-folks thing. Game design wise, both means exist to the same end. Some people like watching violence without having to run around a lot. Some people like exploring and running from new area to new area. Both people socialize while they do it.

I mean, I know this is all very off topic to the original post, but I guess I get frustrated sometimes at how people will support games that they've never played, or only got 50% into the tutorial before quitting, like Eve -- and bash games that they played the beta of in 2004 and haven't touched since, like L2.

[DLRiley]

I disagree. Grind is attractive to many people. If a game requires far too much brain attention, you wont be able to play it for very long without getting mentally exhausted. A good grind system with proper social structure is ideal for players to hang out, mindlessly hack away, and socialize amongst themselves while they explore the world.

But that's just my opinion. See, to me, MMOs are a social space first, and a game second. If I want to play something that isn't grindy and loaded with achievement for repetitive tasks, I'll play... well... just about fucking anything else. The anti-grind crusade is retarded.

I generally find I rather have a game first than a social space. Otherwise I can't really call any mmo shit, because ALL mmo are social spaces more than games. For that matter if you find yourself unable to play a game with a group of friends than the game isn't hardly worth more than a week. If you find yourself incredibly bored without a group of friends with you, than that game has a shelf life of 2 days.

It kinda hard to rip into you since you seem to be the ideal mmo gamer. If MMo devs had a million of you running around, all mmo's would be block busting success stories, instead of either humbling paying the light bills or running into deficit spending and praying to the snake god of game design that their publishers keep paying the light bill.

[Rendakor]

WAR or AoC isn't grindy compared to WoW.

Really? Were we playing the same game? I can gain 5 levels in WoW in the time it takes to gain a single level in WAR in tier 3. I can only imagine it got worse in tier 4. In fact, slow leveling was probably the BIGGEST complaint I heard in the WAR forum here.

[DLRiley]

WAR or AoC isn't grindy compared to WoW.

Really? Were we playing the same game? I can gain 5 levels in WoW in the time it takes to gain a single level in WAR in tier 3. I can only imagine it got worse in tier 4. In fact, slow leveling was probably the BIGGEST complaint I heard in the WAR forum here.

Take WAR grind 1-40 + gear compared to WoW's 1-80 + gear. But no WAR doesn't feel less grindy than WoW only numerically does WAR is less grindy but that is assuming the given player is playing on a full server on peak hours and playing for 3-6 of those hours daily. On less than optimal play, not so full server, not playing during peak hours, only playing an 1 or 2 every so often during the week, than starts WAR is approaching L2 ball crunching grind.

[Nebu]

Enjoying grind isn't the same thing as catassing and pissing your life away.

We're talking past each other here.  "Grind" is what we call parts of a game you have to endure to get to "TEH FUN".  I have no patience for grind anymore.  I did that in EQ and DAoC.  If you enjoy it, mor epower to ya.  It's your free time.

[Ratman_tf]

damijin, I agree with the bit about high activity. Nobody can maintain a high activity rate for hours and hours on end. Disagree about the socalization part though, but then I've always been a hermit who turns off chat in these games. WoW is my big exception, where I fell prey to the Raid Beast and actually liked it.  And even in that specific case, I only talk to my guild mates. Everyone else in the game can eat a bag of shit and die. 

[Hindenburg]

If a game requires far too much brain attention, you wont be able to play it for very long without getting mentally exhausted.

Mind showing a MMO that requires far too much brain attention?

[Chinchilla]

Lotsa reading!  Gonna start now!  Oh and gonna post a review someone gave of WoW and WAR.

[Chinchilla]

Postby xvim on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:42 pm

WoW has a lot of PvP, but the game isn't optimized for it. There are hundreds of thousands of players who do nothing but PvP in WoW, there are a couple dozen servers that are entirely dedicated to it. The problem comes largely in trying to balance solid, balanced PvE content and gear with the same considerations for PvP, the result is that they try to separate teh two for the most part by adding an stat called Resilliance that, though okay in PvE is essential for PvP.

WoW has a system of Battlegrounds, relatively short, team based skirmishes with different objectives based on which BG you enter, Warsong Gulch is a straight up game of capture the flag, Arathi Basin has you attempting to hold 5 'nodes' that accumulate points over the course of the game the more nodes you control the faster you gain points for the win but with 15 people on each team and 5 nodes to capture/protect you have to work as a team to control the board. Eye of the Storm is similar but only has 4 nodes and a central flag that can be captured by either side and run to a controlled node for bonus points. There a couple other BG's 5 in total now I think? On top of that there are PvP objectives scattered about in various zones, like when you first get to Hellfire Peninsula there are 3 points on the map that can be captured by flagging for PvP and then hanging out in that area, the rewards for these events are pretty good so you can often find some decent world PvP action over these targets.

There's also an arena system where you can form a 2, 3 or 5 man team and duke it out in closed quarter matches for some excellent gear.

Combine all of that with the best PvE content in any MMO released thus far.

WAR is an excellent game if all you want to do is PvP. That is a game that is totally optimized for PvP content to the point that well PvP IS the content, it's got some awesome mechanics for conducting seiges, both attacking and defending large keeps with seige weaponry, it's a lot of fun, great graphics and it's neat to play in a warhammer setting. I'd still play it if I didn't miss the PvE content in WoW.

Don't pick WoW because you're excited about grouping with Slackers a lot, you can ask Tarren and Rellim about that. A lot of us do play and we occasionally group up to do stuff. Many of us are in Business Casual, a few are not. We don't have a 'raid schedule' or anything but when we have 5 of us on at a time we'll group up for some instancing. Depending on the season or the placement of the stars or some other mystical factors that I haven't figured out we'll have 10 people all logged on and ready to rumble or we'll have 2 people on, an 80 and a 40 soloing their little hearts out. Expect little more than conversation and the occasional escort through a dungeon if you're having trouble getting a full group together mixed in with the occcasional group instance run.

Personally, you have WoW already, might as well give that a go unless you're really wanting to do nothing but PvP in which case WAR is your best bet and Deedub is the man to talk to.

There's nothing else on the market right now that's really all that worthwhile, I have a fondness for EQ2 but very few people play it anymore. The player base they have is enough to keep the game going and I know Erindor still plays, I would too if I could justify paying for two different games but time and money conspire against me.

This could be helpful for someone else so figured I'd post it.

I really do enjoy the look and feel of Warhammer, but that could just be due to the fun of being in a MMO again after such a long time. After my 10 day of Warhammer ends I will download WoW. I have WoW downloading right now on my home PC for the 10 day free trail run. I did a ton of PvP last night in WAR and it was a blast. I think I can see how the PvE can be weak there, but I'm not sure 100% how. I'll probably see it better once I see WoW's PvE.

[Hindenburg]

That review said that WAR is totally optimized for PvP.
 

[Sky]

If you don't have one of those two situations for your game's character advancement, you leave the player with no chance to talk and socialize.

Forcing people to do anything is fucking stupid. Maybe people can socialize because they like socializing and you can leave off with making the game fucking boring for those of us looking for more game than virtual chat room.

I know I love showing up at the spires to the Overrealm in EQ2 and hearing "The spires will be active in 5 minutes." That really makes me fucking social. When I go afk and make a sandwich. Dinosaur game mechanics.

Maybe we can talk about how forced grouping is awesome because nobody would group if they weren't forced to. Which leads me to believe people don't like grouping, if they need to be forced to do so. When I move, I like to stop by walmart and pick up five random people to help out.

[Lantyssa]

Is this where someone brings up cantinas and wound healing?

[Sky]

Is this where someone brings up cantinas and wound healing?

We're heading there over in the kotor mmo thread.