Stealing from Friends: Things That Cryptic Should Stop Doing

[sidereal]

I dunno.  DirecTV uses Comcast's pipe to tell me to switch to cable, which seems like pretty much the same thing.

And they PAY for the privilege of doing so - i.e. they make media buys to use that pipe. This is not even remotely the same fucking thing.

Totally covered on page 1.  Cryptic theoretically paid for accounts to send their little spams as well.
But I was mostly playing Devil's Advocate.  I'm on board with it being a shitty, stupid thing to do.  Almost certainly against the TOS which, yes 12-year-old brothers break with impunity all the time, but which companies with lots of resources to sue for are very, very careful about if they're smart.

[Samwise]

this could be part of being Darkfall-loving, SB-playing sociopath

That's pretty much what I'm thinking here.   

[Ingmar]

I wonder if that sarcastrobomb Massively guy is just the first of many?

[Rendakor]

I wonder if that sarcastrobomb Massively guy is just the first of many?

I suggest moving the thread to Politics before that happens. 

[sam, an eggplant]

My favorite part about Cryptics CO beta is that they do a shitload of previews and send out more mail than any other company I've ever encountered. Ever. It's approaching spam.

Seriously. I think we're up to four or five emails just in the past week. Every time they turn the servers on they send two emails. It's a bit much.

[d4rkj3di]

 

This does not surprise me at all.

[Soln]

fanboy LARPing.

WHERE DO I GET MY F13 BETA KEY!!

[UnSub]

Evil Inc. needs to STOP IT!

Weak parody. 4/10. Also, I can provide screenshots if you really want, but then you'll say I faked them too.

Seriously, if I'm wrong, all Cryptic has to do is post a message saying "This didn't happen" and it's all done. They are paying a PR company money to do their PR, so get them onto it. Or admit it happened, apologise and move forward.

I find it amusing that people might imagine that either I or my sources have some axe to grind against Cryptic - I started following Cryptic / CoH/V back in 2001 or so, have been a fan of them for years and have always been really excited by what Cryptic  planned... up to this point. Or that I get some kind of advantage out of posting this. Net result: I'm no longer in the ChampO beta, user name and password no longer accepted.

So be it.

EDIT: There's a small chance I can't get in for other reasons - maintenance, technical errors, etc - but I did expect that putting my name to this would be the end of ChampO beta experience.

Works now.

[lamaros]

Evil Inc. needs to STOP IT!

Weak parody. 4/10. Also, I can provide screenshots if you really want, but then you'll say I faked them too.

Seriously, if I'm wrong, all Cryptic has to do is post a message saying "This didn't happen" and it's all done. They are paying a PR company money to do their PR, so get them onto it. Or admit it happened, apologise and move forward.

I find it amusing that people might imagine that either I or my sources have some axe to grind against Cryptic - I started following Cryptic / CoH/V back in 2001 or so, have been a fan of them for years and have always been really excited by what Cryptic  planned... up to this point. Or that I get some kind of advantage out of posting this. Net result: I'm no longer in the ChampO beta, user name and password no longer accepted.

So be it.

EDIT: There's a small chance I can't get in for other reasons - maintenance, technical errors, etc - but I did expect that putting my name to this would be the end of ChampO beta experience.

Se now this strikes me as being more unprofessional than the original post.

[schild]

It strikes me as "guilty as charged."

[Triforcer]

They can't really have expected that NO ONE they sent the emails too would break this story (or at least post on a forum somewhere leading to the story breaking).  That's pure idiocy....

...nevermind  .

[Lum]

People here do lots of things that violate the Rules of Conduct and the EULA in MMOs. 

People acting as official representatives of their company are held to a higher legal standard than "everyone else does it".

[sinij]

People acting as official representatives of their company are held to a higher legal standard than "everyone else does it".

As experience clearly shows, this is unreasonable expectation.

[UnSub]

Net result: I'm no longer in the ChampO beta, user name and password no longer accepted.

So be it.

EDIT: There's a small chance I can't get in for other reasons - maintenance, technical errors, etc - but I did expect that putting my name to this would be the end of ChampO beta experience.

Se now this strikes me as being more unprofessional than the original post.

I've shown that I can't be trusted and can't keep a secret. It's Cryptic's beta and they can kick me if they want to. I'm not so  about it because I was pretty sure it would happen as a result.

[lamaros]

Net result: I'm no longer in the ChampO beta, user name and password no longer accepted.

So be it.

EDIT: There's a small chance I can't get in for other reasons - maintenance, technical errors, etc - but I did expect that putting my name to this would be the end of ChampO beta experience.

Se now this strikes me as being more unprofessional than the original post.

I've shown that I can't be trusted and can't keep a secret. It's Cryptic's beta and they can kick me if they want to. I'm not so  about it because I was pretty sure it would happen as a result.

Strange idea of 'secret'!

[MahrinSkel]

I'm having a hard time understanding the outrage here.  Cryptic is reaching out to the most concentrated nexus of their target market.  NCSoft (in partnership with Cryptic) created the most target-rich environment *possible* for Champions Online to go after for beta buzz, every single current player of "Underwear Fetishists Online" games is on one site.  And they aren't being sneaky about it, pretending to astroturf their way into extending these invitations, they're just doing it.

The only difference is that NCSoft operates the forums in question, and Cryptic doesn't (anymore).  So nobody is ever allowed to try and poach WoW players using the exact same techniques they used against DAoC and EQ1 (and that Mythic used against EQ1 in their turn), because they've morally inoculated themselves against it by putting them all into one site and providing in-game mail (so few people have their guildmate's email addresses)?

Was it immoral for people to talk up Camelot in EQ1 guildchat?  Or AoC and WAR in WoW's chat?  Or is it only immoral because these are employees of a competitor who openly identify themselves as such?  What if it were members of their families?  Close personal friends?  Guildmates?  People who met them once at a fanfest or other convention?  How wide must the chinese wall between employee and shill be, before the moral taint no longer attaches?

Or are you just frightened that the community you belong to is about to fission, and this un-named dev gave you a convenient target to unleash teh haet on?

Let NCSoft defend themselves from this.  Nobody "owns" the community, or the subscription revenue they provide.  Or does Comcast have the right to decide what online games you're allowed to play, and charge the providers for using their pipes to do so?  Why should you be allowed to play CoH, if they sign an exclusive with Cryptic?

--Dave

[Triforcer]

Don't even try.  Ever answer will be some variation of "Explain mahself?  Scahlett, all I know is such ungentlemanly actions gave me the vapahs!" 

[Tebonas]

Wow, I'm glad my angle wasn't morality but the annoyance and immersion breaking factor. I don't want spam and advertisment in my game. And the provider of my game enforcing that is actually one of the reasons I give my money to that particular game ( or more specifically, them not enforcing it or worse showing they have no qualms about doing it themself is a reason to withhold my money).

[UnSub]

The only difference is that NCSoft operates the forums in question, and Cryptic doesn't (anymore).  So nobody is ever allowed to try and poach WoW players using the exact same techniques they used against DAoC and EQ1 (and that Mythic used against EQ1 in their turn), because they've morally inoculated themselves against it by putting them all into one site and providing in-game mail (so few people have their guildmate's email addresses)?

If you think it is fine for a competitor to come into your business and use the tools you provide to try to take your customers, good luck to you. It's not the attempt to take the customers, it is the method used.

I'd expect Cryptic to contact guild sites, or even have an open recruitment attempt on their website. But if this kind of thing becomes acceptable behaviour I think PMs on official forums will become a thing of the past.

Was it immoral for people to talk up Camelot in EQ1 guildchat?  Or AoC and WAR in WoW's chat?  Or is it only immoral because these are employees of a competitor who openly identify themselves as such?  What if it were members of their families?  Close personal friends?  Guildmates?  People who met them once at a fanfest or other convention?  How wide must the chinese wall between employee and shill be, before the moral taint no longer attaches?

The difference between the importance of what a redname says and what an ordinary player says is immense. The gap probably has to be a bit wider than "direct employee of Cryptic". That Cryptic was giving away beta keys next to the CoH/V stall? That's fine. But the second s/he crosses the threshold and starts handing out ChampO beta keys while standing in the CoH/V stall is where things get tricky.

Or are you just frightened that the community you belong to is about to fission, and this un-named dev gave you a convenient target to unleash teh haet on?

God no. Bring on the better MMOs. CoH/V is in its last stages (unless I14 is a huge success) of major reinvestment. Cryptic's act was worth commenting on because the act was underhanded. If Cryptic wants to complete with CoH/V, fine, do it in open competition, not by trying to directly steal players off the official forums.

If Cryptic didn't think this was a bit underhanded, their response would have been "so what?". They'd have been open about it.

Nobody "owns" the community, or the subscription revenue they provide. 

Hear that? That was the sound of thousands of CSR people doing a simultaneous /facepalm. You don't own the community, but you own its integrity, its management. You attempt to keep it together. I've got no idea of Comcast so I don't even understand your last point.

Cryptic can't feel they have any ownership of the community - they sold their rights to CoH/V off to NCsoft. The money they got wasn't because they made a shiny IP, it was because 150k players played it and paid for the privilege.

[lamaros]

I'm not sure if the Home comparison works. It's more like I have a party and my neighbour I don't know rocks up and starts telling everyone there's a better party down the street, and people should check it out. (Except of course, games aren't excusive like a such partys would be, you can play two games at once.)

Which is pretty low, but it's not the bottom of the barrel.

[apocrypha]

I'm a bit confused I must admit.

Some of you seem to be expecting things such as honour and morals from companies that are in direct competition with each other. Gaming isn't some magic paradise rainbow unicorn fairy land that exists outside of capitalism you know. And yes, I know that point was made on page 1. I just think it's such an important point that it bears repeating.

[Xuri]

Thieves don't steal from thieves? Unless they can get away with it. Which Cryptic didn't. :P

[Numtini]

Right now there's a spam in the MMO forum for a powerlevelling company and chances are that by the time most people read this message, it will be gone and denned. It's categorically different than someone like Schilling who comes here to chat up their game and engages us as fellow gamers--even if they act like a douche.

There's a world of difference between a dev doing PR by conversing with people and someone spamming someone. And the in game angle just makes it worse.

[Arthur_Parker]

For me it's exactly what Numtini said, it's lazy marketing and ignores the fact that spam of any kind is really annoying.

[UnSub]

... and now I'm back in the ChampO beta. Perhaps unbanned, perhaps hit by an account bug I've never experienced before. 

[Mrbloodworth]

wow, what happened in here. I know what this thread needs.

[UnSub]

I'm not sure if the Home comparison works.

Should have said 'business'. Editted.

[HaemishM]

My favorite part about Cryptics CO beta is that they do a shitload of previews and send out more mail than any other company I've ever encountered. Ever. It's approaching spam.

Seriously. I think we're up to four or five emails just in the past week. Every time they turn the servers on they send two emails. It's a bit much.

They send out more email than they have playsessions open.

EDIT: And as for why this is bad...

Black Snow, WoW gold sellers. Spamming advertisements in someone else's game is JUST FUCKING WRONG. If a WoW gold seller can get banned for trying to sell gold in spam tells or on forums, why shouldn't a competitor be held to an even higher standard? It would be bad enough if you were astroturfing on your competitor's forum with "guerilla marketers." It's even worse when it's blatant. It's like rubbing your balls in your competitor's face and daring him to do something about it.

[Reg]

It was just in the forums though wasn't it? That's bad enough but not as bad as spamming their beta invites in the game itself.

[SnakeCharmer]

The mistake people are making here is in parallel to a word in the title:  "Friends".

It's business.  It's not personal, it's just business.  Every company that I have worked for, I've taken business from when I left them.  I've taken business from close 'friends' in the industry, and I've had close 'friends' in the industry take business from me.  Hell, I've hired people in the last year I knew could take business away from their current company.  I can't imagine that game developers are any different in that regard with headhunting for people they've worked with in the past with particular skill sets.  Is it possible that Schilling hired some of the EQ/SOE people because he knew they could bring in players based upon name recognition alone?

The people doing the solicitation aren't slandering (or is it libel?) NCSoft.  They aren't saying bad things about them.  They're just saying "Hey, we've got a superhero MMO too!  Come check us out!".  Had Cryptic been saying "CoX is a steaming pile of dung, CO is freaking awesome", I could see the froth.

Would it be any different if they had people datamining the NCSoft forums for people that post their email address and soliciting that way? 

[schild]

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd here we go:

Original response from Diamonds to Unsub:

Hey Unsub,

Yes that was indeed me. Have them send me an email. We are specifically looking for guild leaders and active community memebers. Have them send me their CoX name, email address, Guild and Guild Rank.

If they already got a message from me and was wondering if it was a phishing scam, it wasn't. In the message, it has my email which they can use to verify that it is me (it has a @crypticstudios.com email).

Lastly, please don't discuss this outside of those invovled (aka don't post about it in a forum etc). Thanks.

Cheers,
Diamonds

An admittance of guilt and the want of privacy. You don't get one without the other Diamonds.

My email back to Diamonds:

> Subject: RE: Beta Access for ChampO
>
> Let's chat. AIM or MSN would be easiest.
>
> Best Regards,
> Eric Schild

He forwarded the email to marketing, which TYPICALLY is one of my biggest pet peeves since those stone-walling jerks tend to make me go behind someones back which just results in more tears for my armor-polishing tear juice.

> Hey Eric,
> I'm Cryptic Studios' new Marcom Manager (Marcom is community, PR, and marketing). I just started on Monday, but I should be able to answer any questions you might have about the CO beta we're running. Just let me know what you're wondering.
>
> Cheers!

My response to him:

XXXXXX,

Hi, this isn't actually about the CO beta. This is about finding out
whose idea it was to start soliciting CoH players in a more-than-tacky
way. I'm not entirely sure you want to be involved. But feel free to dig
to the bottom of it if you want to! I think Chris is the best one for
answering these particular questions though.

-schild

Now you may ask, why would schild, of all people, give someone any privacy in this sort of situation. I'll tell you why. This guy is, shockingly (for the gaming industry) straight forward and useful. Which is not the norm.

His response back to me:

Hey Eric,
I think I know what you're talking about now. I've been reading up on recent press and some news aggregates have picked up this story. Maybe I can help clear things up a bit?

So, we're currently running the closed beta test for Champions Online and a few of our employees thought it might be a good idea to contact avid MMO notables and various guild leaders floating about to see if they wanted to test. I'm certain this wasn't meant to be a malicious attack on a competing product, nor did anyone intend to steal players, violate user agreements, kill babies, or knife hardworking farmers in the back. We had invites to send and the folks who send them figured people who play MMOs most might want them most. If a line was crossed, it was totally inadvertent and no harm was intended.

That being said, we have just recently restructured the Community, PR, and Marketing departments (part of the reason I'm here), so we'll make sure to stay straight as an arrow from here on. Shills, poaching, bullshotting... No chance, man. We make good games and we hope people will play them. Best anyone can do, right?

This is the best answer I've ever gotten about anything for anything involving marketing people. Grats to Cryptic for not hiring a bonehead. Now don't do that shit again.

[sinij]

I find it ironic that you feel posting private correspondence to prove your point is fine (and it is), but trying to get few Ubers to test your game isn't (and it is also fine in my book).

What I really want to know is why f13 staff has a bone to grind with Cryptic. At this point it is clearly past 'yellow journalism' or even 'ranting' and well into 'flaming' territory. Not that there is anything wrong with good flame war for no good reason, but it not something you normally do around these parts.

[IronAngel]

EDIT: There's a small chance I can't get in for other reasons - maintenance, technical errors, etc - but I did expect that putting my name to this would be the end of ChampO beta experience.

Hey UnSub -

You haven't been banned, and we'd like to try and figure out why you can't log in.  Please email support@crypticstudios.com and we'll look into it.

Thanks!
IronAngel

[schild]

I find it ironic that you feel posting private correspondence to prove your point is fine (and it is), but trying to get few Ubers to test your game isn't (and it is also fine in my book).

What I really want to know is why f13 staff has a bone to grind with Cryptic. At this point it is clearly past 'yellow journalism' or even 'ranting' and well into 'flaming' territory.

Eh, I don't have a bone to grind, I just laid it to rest. I told the other guy I was posting it. As for why, well, people questioned the validity. Given Chris flat out ad...

Wait a minute, why the fuck am I even responding to you?

[Rendakor]

I think its amusing that they had to get someone in PR to talk to you after some "restructuring".