Bad Groups

[Jayce]

It's not hard to hit the uncrit soon after or at hitting 80, but it's annoying as fuck. And while you're gemming for all that defense, your HP suffer.  

I used this:  http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/41986-ciders-easy-540-defense-gear-guide.html

Mostly bought/rep gear and no need for defense gems.  It took a while to get to 25k health/armor though.  I didn't start heroics until I got about 23k.

edit: and quested

edit2: urilfied

[SurfD]

One reason I love my bear.  Defence cap? What defence cap?

[Soulflame]

One reason I love my bear.  Defence cap? What defence cap?

SwipeSwipeSwipeSwipeMangleSwipeSwipeSwipeSwipe
MaulMaulMaulMaulMangleMaulMaulMaul
 

[Polysorbate80]

I've picked up a little more defense gear, so although I'm still a long way from the def cap (armory) last night I decide to try a heroic for once.

Problem:  It's ToC.  I haven't ever even done this one, other than tanking the black knight on normal once.  Not an ideal choice of dungeon, but I decide to give it a go anyways.

Joust finishes quickly, faction champs come up.  First mob drops & we're almost through the second when I notice my health bar is getting rather low and not being replenished....turns out the the paly healer has been preoccupied with looking at my gear and is now too busy typing complaints at me to actually cast spells.  Finish champs with no deaths, but drama ensues, so I called it a night.  No idea how Paletress/BK would have gone.

[Arrrgh]

I've picked up a little more defense gear, so although I'm still a long way from the def cap (armory) last night I decide to try a heroic for once.

Bad idea. Yes, if you get a godlike healer they'll be able to carry you, but if you get an average or below healer you're just going to wipe, screw over the whole group, and waste more time than if you had simply queued as DPS and hopefully picked up some more tank gear.

[Polysorbate80]

I dunno; I'm still crit-immune so far as I know, and dodge and parry are close to what a def-capped fresh 80 would have.  I do wish my block% were higher, but I haven't yet run into any drops that'll change that.  We were doing OK when he was, y'know, remembering to heal. 

I do wish I'd been familiar with the fight, but some of the dungeons just don't seem to come up in the random very often.

[apocrypha]

You logged out in your PVP gear so I can't see what your tank gear is like, but as a healer I know that a badly geared tank is just going to be impossible in ToC and above. There's just too much damage thrown around the whole group for there to be any issues with the tank :(

[Ingmar]

Don't worry about your block %. It is the least important of all your defensive stats. If you happen to get gear with block rating on it, great, but it isn't anything to go chasing after. Once you replace all that resilience gear with actual tanking gear it will go up - defense doesn't just lower crits taken, it also raises your chance to be missed, and chance to dodge/parry/block.

Tank gearing this expansion is mostly about stacking stamina to the sky once you're def capped.

[proudft]

If your stamina is below, say, 30k ToC can be pretty rough, especially if you get a bad combo of NPCs or Paletress, or on phases 2 & 3 of the Black Knight.  On the bright side, it probably won't random queue you for the ICC 5-mans until you're semi-ready.

But yeah, DPSing until you get some of the badge gear is probably the easiest solution.  You never know what kind of healer you'll get, so it's best to do a bit of overkill.

Edit: well I see your stamina is 31k on the armory, but if you're not crit immune it's not REALLY that high.  

Edit Edit: wait, is your resilience is high enough to put you into crit-immune when you add it to your defense?   Maybe that healer sucked.   

[kildorn]

Phase 3 of the black knight is cake with a real AE healer and decent DPS. But yeah, if you have under 30k hp as a tank in my pug heroic, I'm probably going to be... nervous.

[Polysorbate80]

You logged out in your PVP gear so I can't see what your tank gear is like, but as a healer I know that a badly geared tank is just going to be impossible in ToC and above. There's just too much damage thrown around the whole group for there to be any issues with the tank :(

No, that actually is my tank gear :P  I don't have any other pieces yet.  I've been tanking non-heroics for badges/drops.

Current def + resilience is ~7% crit reduction, I'm ok on that part at least.  HP is around 33k self buffed, haven't broken 40k with group buffs yet but I can get close.

If it had been an ICC, I would have bowed out without trying.

[Jayce]

I've picked up a little more defense gear, so although I'm still a long way from the def cap (armory) last night I decide to try a heroic for once.

I can't see the armory from here, so I'm sort of confused: I have mostly epic defense items, and left the defense cap in the dust long ago, decent dodge and parry, but I'm not quite to 30k health yet.  I've found getting to 30k while not losing other stats to be non-trivial.  Also, I've tanked every heroic except HHoR without problems.

Is it just apples and oranges to compare my heroic stuff to your PvP gear?

[Ingmar]

I've picked up a little more defense gear, so although I'm still a long way from the def cap (armory) last night I decide to try a heroic for once.

I can't see the armory from here, so I'm sort of confused: I have mostly epic defense items, and left the defense cap in the dust long ago, decent dodge and parry, but I'm not quite to 30k health yet.  I've found getting to 30k while not losing other stats to be non-trivial.  Also, I've tanked every heroic except HHoR without problems.

Is it just apples and oranges to compare my heroic stuff to your PvP gear?

PVP gear has an assload of stamina on it, basically. He's got a 170 stamina beer mug in there too.

[Lt.Dan]

Your average PUG'er is also going to have problems believing that you're uncrittable in resilience gear.  It's not widely known.

As an FYI on my Pally tank who is uncrittable with about 30k health has successfully tanked HToC and HFoS.  Bit scary in the ICC 5 man and some whinging from the group but totally doable provided you know the boss strats.  I have no qualms about running HPoS but think I would struggle in HHoR.

[Rasix]

Heh, for fun (and instant queues) my friend and I decided to tank/healer some instances last night.  His gear is really rudimentary (improving by the minute) and my healing gear is below my DPS. So random decides to dump us in HFOS (not sure how, his GS at the time was pretty low and I was only hovering around 4k with a lot of that left over elem gear) and the group starts bitching the second we get in.  We had completed some easier heroics without even a hint of a problem but the elite DPS were scoffing at the prospect of using misdirect and other class abilities.

We decided the bitching probably wasn't worth the effort and just dropped groups and logged on alts.  Probably for the best, it was the first time I had healed since the Bush administration and I'm pretty sure the spike damage would have done me in on the vkyrul and Scourgelord.  He was not hard to heal at all though, in a HCOS his health never dipped below half.  Best part of that HCOS was ilevel 245+ unholy DK doing almost less DPS than him.

His gear for reference.

edit: Resto shaman healing is pretty lame.  I've got serious priest and druid envy.

[Polysorbate80]

but think I would struggle in HHoR.

I don't like running it even on regular--not so much from difficulty as from it just being annoying.

[Selby]

Your average PUG'er is also going to have problems believing that you're uncrittable in resilience gear.  It's not widely known.

I *never* complain about a person's gear unless I am draining my mana bar on every pull trying to keep them alive.  I then suggest we have a look at what we're doing and see if something is wrong, since the average tank doesn't worry any of my healers too much these days (all 3 are well geared).

And an undergeared tank that can at least hold aggro on all mobs can be fixed with high DPS on most fights anyways, so a healer bitching about gear is likely just being a dick.

[Sjofn]

I don't even look at people's gear, it just doesn't occur to me to do so. MOST of the time I'm tanking, though, so I have a lot of luxury in that department. I just slow down if the healer seems to be having a little trouble with me chain pulling or whatever, and totally ignore the dps as long as they're keeping up.

[Lt.Dan]

I was levelling my druid last night and got into a normal Nexus group.  The tank drops from the group after one pull after a DPS takes an eternity to fix his UI and relog.  The replacement tank was a 2h wielding Pally tank who didn't drop consecrate.  We struggled through one trash pull before someone asked "do you have a shield?"....his answer "DKs tank with 2handers so can I". 

Luckily I have a leave party macro hotkeyed. 

[Malakili]

We struggled through one trash pull before someone asked "do you have a shield?"....his answer "DKs tank with 2handers so can I". 

Luckily I have a leave party macro hotkeyed. 

How... how do people get to level 70 and be this stupid.  Oh wait, now I remember, because people bitched when grouping up while leveling, so now you can go the entire game and learn 0 things about how to actually play your class.

[Ingmar]

We struggled through one trash pull before someone asked "do you have a shield?"....his answer "DKs tank with 2handers so can I". 

Luckily I have a leave party macro hotkeyed. 

How... how do people get to level 70 and be this stupid.  Oh wait, now I remember, because people bitched when grouping up while leveling, so now you can go the entire game and learn 0 things about how to actually play your class.

You never had to group to level in WoW.

[Malakili]

We struggled through one trash pull before someone asked "do you have a shield?"....his answer "DKs tank with 2handers so can I". 

Luckily I have a leave party macro hotkeyed. 

How... how do people get to level 70 and be this stupid.  Oh wait, now I remember, because people bitched when grouping up while leveling, so now you can go the entire game and learn 0 things about how to actually play your class.

You never had to group to level in WoW.

You never HAD to, but there was a time when it was a lot more common.

[Rasix]

Where you played in a manner that didn't represent what you'd be doing at max level.  Hell, my friends and I at launch did ever dungeon up to Ulda'man as a shaman, shaman, mage trio. Alts never saw the insides of those dungeons except with a higher level escort to trivialize it.

[Paelos]

Where you played in a manner that didn't represent what you'd be doing at max level.  Hell, my friends and I at launch did ever dungeon up to Ulda'man as a shaman, shaman, mage trio. Alts never saw the insides of those dungeons except with a higher level escort to trivialize it.

Grouping only consistently works when your playerbase has a common goal at a similar time. That usually happens at the top in a Diku format that is adopted by users at staggered intervals. Every MMOG player knows deep down that you're either there early with the base, or you're a beggar later on in the game hoping for help.

[SurfD]

One reason I love my bear.  Defence cap? What defence cap?

SwipeSwipeSwipeSwipeMangleSwipeSwipeSwipeSwipe
MaulMaulMaulMaulMangleMaulMaulMaul
 

Pfft.  Real bears have Maul macroed to every attack.  I havent had to actually hit a maul button in over 6 months.

[Lantyssa]

Ooh, that would open up a button.

[Gobbeldygook]

As a healer, I usually glance over the tank and DPS gear to get an idea for how much I'll need to pay attention and how aggressively I can DPS.  As a tank, I usually glance at the healer's gear to get an idea of how aggressively I can pull.  If they're in most blues, yeah don't be stupid just single pull.  If they're in all toc/ICC, QUADRUPLE PULL FUCK YEAH.

[Ingmar]

One reason I love my bear.  Defence cap? What defence cap?

SwipeSwipeSwipeSwipeMangleSwipeSwipeSwipeSwipe
MaulMaulMaulMaulMangleMaulMaulMaul
 

Pfft.  Real bears have Maul macroed to every attack.  I havent had to actually hit a maul button in over 6 months.

Any warriors reading this should not get the bright idea to macro heroic strike into your stuff, it works for bears it does not work for us!

[Merusk]

But Dks SHOULD macro Rune Strike. 

[SurfD]

Well, it works great for bear raid tanks (dont see why it wouldnt work for Warrior Raid tanks either).   Out in PvP / some heroics, it can lead to rage starvation however, since you are constantly using rage for maul and not doing many normal attacks to get it back.

[Ingmar]

Well, it works great for bear raid tanks (dont see why it wouldnt work for Warrior Raid tanks either).   Out in PvP / some heroics, it can lead to rage starvation however, since you are constantly using rage for maul and not doing many normal attacks to get it back.

For warriors, it is generally a bad idea for a couple reasons.

- Because it can cause rage starvation occasionally, particularly early in pulls (warrior rage income is a little more spiky than bears largely because we don't have your crit-makes-rage feedback loop - a bear swiping a large pack of mobs with a decent crit rate is essentially doing it for free or actually gaining rage by hitting swipe, for example - the rage from shield spec makes up part of the difference but not all)
- Because it interferes with when you need to hit cleave instead
- Tanking warriors typically have a much faster attack speed than bears so in situations when your white swing time is faster than the 1.5 seconds of the GCD (not unusual with fast tanking weapons and raid haste buffs like windfury) you will miss possible heroic strike opportunities if you're only sending a HS macro every 1.5 seconds when you use one of your abilities that is on the GCD. This is not a problem for bears because their base attack speed is 2.5 seconds I think.

One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.

[Rendakor]

One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.

Then how do you zoom out?

[Gobbeldygook]

One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.

Then how do you zoom out?

Better question: Why would you ever zoom back in?

[Zetor]

You'd zoom back in to get epic screenshots of your character, duh. 

About droods: I currently have maul macroed to swipe [which is my side mouse button, it gets a lot of work during heroics] and mangle [which is '2', aka easiest button to spam], but I also have versions of swipe/mangle without maul to use in low-rage situations... and there are quite a few of those in heroics. There's also some macro floating around that allows you to toggle auto-maul in your other macros, if you know in advance whether you'll have enough rage to perma-maul through a dungeon.

[SurfD]

There's also some macro floating around that allows you to toggle auto-maul in your other macros, if you know in advance whether you'll have enough rage to perma-maul through a dungeon.

Any idea if you could hunt that one up?  I would LOVE to have something like that, but I was always under the impression that you could not really toggle it with the current macro code.  The best option i could find was something like "hold shift to cause all your attacks to add maul" as an operator in your macro.