Bad Groups

[Soulflame]

This tried to tank HoL.  It didn't go well.  After General Yelly McLightning ate his face the second time, I bailed.  There's no way my druid could keep up with the damage he was tossing out.

Waited a few minutes, queued again, got a paladin tanking HoS.  Smooth run.

I'm sort of a fan of the LFG system, and sort of not.   

[Draegan]

So I've been in the Ulduman loop now with LFDs.  I had a bear tank go right instead of left when entering the instance.  He walked into the dead end and started screaming "WHERE DO I GO? WHERE WHERE?" 

I left that one real quick.

Also hate Uldaman for people that want to back track for bosses "for loot and xp!"  No fucker, do the instance in one quick path, rinse and repeat.  Stop running around for a group of 5 mobs.

Meh.

[Jayce]

You do have some (IMO) mis-spent points in there. Puncture is a pretty useless talent outside of prot pvp builds these days; rage income is no longer really a problem even in stuff you overgear. I would go minimum 12 into arms for impale and you probably want deep wounds. Cruelty is pretty skippable what with all the +15% to this and that talents in prot now. Armored to the Teeth is a better point for point threat investment. Vigilance is also a really important threat tool you're missing. Being able to slap that on the guy in your heroic who keeps pulling off of you is a big help.

My spec.

Thanks.  I originally specced for leveling, pre-dungeon finder, for which Vigilance was pretty pointless. It's a lot more relevant to my life now.

Puncture was just a mistake I suppose. I think with those point savings I might make it to impale/deep wounds which would be pretty nice.

[kildorn]

Vigilance is the new blessing of dunce for pugs.

[Khaldun]

Where I know as rogue dps that I'm in for a rough ride in the ICC 5-mans is when after the first two pulls or so I find I've done upwards of 60% of the total damage. If the tank and healer are good, that's doable, just take a while and I'm essentially going to be an off-tank of sorts using evasion on every big trash pull. If they're not good, and I'm that much over the other two dps, wipes ahoy--esp. after Ick and Krick in HPoS.

[Lt.Dan]

I was a bad group yesterday :P I accidentally signed up through the LFD tool as a healer for a heroic PoS instead of normal.  I was in Disc spec instead of my preferred Holy and it was my first time through...hilarity ensued.

I have no idea how we got through but we did and I was the only one to die during the run.

So there you go.  Somewhere on the intrawebs some forum community is linking my armory and claiming credit for teh clear.

[K9]

I have no idea how we got through but we did and I was the only one to die during the run.

Did you die to Ick? I died to him the first two times I did him, to the amusement of my guildies. I really should have learned faster 

[Soulflame]

Friend wanted to to a quick heroic daily, I figured why not, but I only had about 20 minutes.  She's tank, I'm healer, we pop into LFG, and about .5s later are zoomed to HHoL.  No problem, I figure.

The dps looked something like this:

Tank:  2500 dps
Rogue:  1600 dps
Hunter:  600 dps
DK:  500 dps.

I left after the second pull, the tank was about 5s behind me in leaving.  I'll put up with a lot, but that's a bridge too far.  Or maybe 10 bridges too far.

[Simond]

Honestly, I'm kind of liking the bad/lazy DPS because it makes my own 2-2.5K in mediocre gear look p. 

[Ironwood]

I'm not even sure how a DK can be at 500 dps.  That insanely low.

[Rendakor]

Yea that really is bad. Even using a cast-random macro in blues would yield 1500 or so.

[Shrike]

Low dps DK? Blood + shitty gear + auto-pilot = sub 1k dps.

Not just them either. I've seen sub-1k dps on most dps classes one time or another. It's just laziness and you should kick them. 

[Simond]

I'm not even sure how a DK can be at 500 dps.  That insanely low.

Autoattack, a bad spec and terrible gear. I'm guessing fast two-hander and spellpower plate.

[Selby]

I'm guessing fast two-hander and spellpower plate.

We usually make fun of people with this type of setup.  Loads of +SP and spirit?  Just makes me laugh.

[Gobbeldygook]

Yea that really is bad. Even using a cast-random macro in blues would yield 1500 or so.

Cast-random would explain it, actually.  They may not have realized blizzard deliberately broke castrandom macros a few patches back.

[Ironwood]

I'm sorry, what does this mean ?

[K9]

There was some way for DKs to catch procs by spamming a castrandom macro which they broke in 3.2 or something.

[March]

I'm sorry, what does this mean ?

Castrandom conveniently skipped abilities on cooldowns... so you could pile a bunch of GCD abilities into one macro and castrandom would always cast something that was available. 

Not necessarily optimal, but heck... whenever you pushed the button something was guaranteed to happen.

[Rendakor]

A cast random macro is basically a list of every damaging DK skill in the game, with a command to cast any of them randomly. It was tested by some of the high end raiders and they found that using it instead of an intelligent rotation lost only 200 dps. However, with 3.2 they changed it so that if a skill called by a cast random macro failed to fire (say, because the appropriate Rune wasn't active, you didn't have enough RP, or the skill was on CD), the macro would attempt it again next time it was called (instead of switching to a new skill).

[K9]

A cast random macro is basically a list of every damaging DK skill in the game, with a command to cast any of them randomly. It was tested by some of the high end raiders and they found that using it instead of an intelligent rotation lost only 200 dps. However, with 3.2 they changed it so that if a skill called by a cast random macro failed to fire (say, because the appropriate Rune wasn't active, you didn't have enough RP, or the skill was on CD), the macro would attempt it again next time it was called (instead of switching to a new skill).

This is the one.

[Gobbeldygook]

I collected some tears when it was first broken.

"For starters melee attacks. Wing clip, Raptor Strike, Counter-Attack (if talented) and Mongoose Bite can be put into 1 macro. Thats 3-4 melee abilitys in 1 button. I already have enough ranged attacks keybound to also need to have to worry about. And if your going to be ignorant and claim hunters don't melee then you hav'nt set foot in arena.

Thanks for killing my pvp experience. I went from relying on 20 keybinds to having to use 36+. I just cannot pvp anymore because of it. I only have 5 fingers! Its as simple as that. Hunters need castrandom to minimise required keybinds to pvp effectively. Since the change i have been forced to stop pvping with my hunter. 36+ keybinds is just to damn much."

"So you want mages to not be able to use a random polymorph? Or for players to only be able to (easily) pick one of two random mounts? Both those after he said they wanted players to have that option?"

"What if you don't want to friggin' keybind?! What if you want to use ASDW+QE to move and strafe? I know a lot of people think that's bad, but I've always seen it as more of a playstyle thing. That's a pretty grotesque monstrosity of a game if you have to bind every bloody ability to individual keys just to not suck. Refer to my "perversion of the concept of fun" comment above."

"Well now with the change to /castrandom I feel like a noob tank again lol"

[Fordel]

There is a pretty infamous video of a Pre-Nerf DK doing 2v2 arena using nothing but a cast random macro and still slaughtering just about everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIXYMY4dOmI

[Rendakor]

"So you want mages to not be able to use a random polymorph? Or for players to only be able to (easily) pick one of two random mounts? Both those after he said they wanted players to have that option?"

This one here just doesn't hold up, as castrandoms still WORK for those things; its just that if the ability selected fails for any reason, next activation of the macro tries it again rather than rolling a new one. I have two very lengthy castrandom macros for mounts (one for ground, one for flying) that both work just fine.

[Simond]

I just use Squire because it's easier than editing a macro every time you get a new mount.

[Rasix]

And that was after I told them to "please try harder" (before it was like 950 and 800). The DK's gear is a riot. At least the hunter managed to hit 1200 dps by the end of the instance.

[Ingmar]

I had a DK do 558 in Halls of Stone today. Clearly had just dinged and didn't really know how to play the class - I didn't say anything at all to her as I figured the 5000 gearscore warlock would cover her and then some. The lock ended up doing like 2400 though. 

Eventually the DK self-kicked when we failed at Brann twice due to wave buildup from lack of damage.

[Jayce]

I think my gear has gotten to the point where I'm being put into groups with some players below my level.  I had two random normals last night. Oculus (gah) and Halls of Reflection. 

The Oculus run failed at Urom after carrying the group "leader", a hunter who put out significantly less dps than me (the tank) and we had to keep telling to stop flying in circles on his drake and come to the fight.

The HoR one was not too bad with the exception of one DK who (from memory) did 3 digits of dps. We got the first two bosses down, but couldn't dps fast enough to not get lolowned, several times, by the Lich King's "enrage" (i.e. instagib if you don't keep up) when doing the escape.

[Ingmar]

I have a feeling if you're running normals on random you'll get a very odd mix. Maybe time to move up to heroics.

[Jayce]

I have a feeling if you're running normals on random you'll get a very odd mix. Maybe time to move up to heroics.

Yeah, I'm just doing it for the badges and possibly normal ToC and the ICC 5-mans.  Ideally the normal daily should be a faceroll for me, coughing up 2 badges for a minimum of work, but clearly not always.

[Ingmar]

I have a feeling if you're running normals on random you'll get a very odd mix. Maybe time to move up to heroics.

Yeah, I'm just doing it for the badges and possibly normal ToC and the ICC 5-mans.  Ideally the normal daily should be a faceroll for me, coughing up 2 badges for a minimum of work, but clearly not always.

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its actually going to be more of a faceroll to do the heroics, minus a couple of the new ones. All the people with super duper gear are running those, where most people likely to be in random normals are going to be the really undergeared folks and sub-80s. Plus you'll get more badges that way.

[Selby]

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its actually going to be more of a faceroll to do the heroics, minus a couple of the new ones. All the people with super duper gear are running those, where most people likely to be in random normals are going to be the really undergeared folks and sub-80s. Plus you'll get more badges that way.

Seriously.  I skipped almost every single regular instance when leveling my army and went straight into heroics for badges on all of my characters.  Regular instances just didn't really have much for me, and now all you do is get 2 badges and random strangers in a mix of gear.  Outside of H-HoR, all the rest of the heroics are pretty easy with a decent group provided you aren't trying to tank or heal them in greens...

On a bad group note... what is with all of these tanks chain pulling every single mob in the room?  Granted, we're geared for it these days, but if you don't tell people that you are going to grab 12 mobs, the healer may have issues healing everyone AND the DPS may or may not be prepared for it and end up pulling aggro off of mobs.  It's not like getting the instance done in 20m vs. the 17m of chain pulling is going to make that much of a difference...

[kildorn]

I had a DK do 558 in Halls of Stone today. Clearly had just dinged and didn't really know how to play the class - I didn't say anything at all to her as I figured the 5000 gearscore warlock would cover her and then some. The lock ended up doing like 2400 though. 

Eventually the DK self-kicked when we failed at Brann twice due to wave buildup from lack of damage.

Man what? I'm pretty sure I've done better than that when cooking dinner during trash. I have no idea what my gearscore is, but ye gods is right.

[kildorn]

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its actually going to be more of a faceroll to do the heroics, minus a couple of the new ones. All the people with super duper gear are running those, where most people likely to be in random normals are going to be the really undergeared folks and sub-80s. Plus you'll get more badges that way.

Seriously.  I skipped almost every single regular instance when leveling my army and went straight into heroics for badges on all of my characters.  Regular instances just didn't really have much for me, and now all you do is get 2 badges and random strangers in a mix of gear.  Outside of H-HoR, all the rest of the heroics are pretty easy with a decent group provided you aren't trying to tank or heal them in greens...

On a bad group note... what is with all of these tanks chain pulling every single mob in the room?  Granted, we're geared for it these days, but if you don't tell people that you are going to grab 12 mobs, the healer may have issues healing everyone AND the DPS may or may not be prepared for it and end up pulling aggro off of mobs.  It's not like getting the instance done in 20m vs. the 17m of chain pulling is going to make that much of a difference...

Chain pulling only annoys me when I have AE rolling and the tank tosses something at another pack. Yeah, thanks, that aggro totally wasn't my fault when you pulled three more things you haven't built threat on yet into the designated falling fire area ><

[Ingmar]

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its actually going to be more of a faceroll to do the heroics, minus a couple of the new ones. All the people with super duper gear are running those, where most people likely to be in random normals are going to be the really undergeared folks and sub-80s. Plus you'll get more badges that way.

Seriously.  I skipped almost every single regular instance when leveling my army and went straight into heroics for badges on all of my characters.  Regular instances just didn't really have much for me, and now all you do is get 2 badges and random strangers in a mix of gear.  Outside of H-HoR, all the rest of the heroics are pretty easy with a decent group provided you aren't trying to tank or heal them in greens...

On a bad group note... what is with all of these tanks chain pulling every single mob in the room?  Granted, we're geared for it these days, but if you don't tell people that you are going to grab 12 mobs, the healer may have issues healing everyone AND the DPS may or may not be prepared for it and end up pulling aggro off of mobs.  It's not like getting the instance done in 20m vs. the 17m of chain pulling is going to make that much of a difference...

For a tank, groups pop instantly. For a DPSer, who has to wait 10ish minutes for a group, saving 3 minutes off a run may not let you squeeze one more in in your playtime for that session, for a tank it can add up really fast.

[Selby]

For a tank, groups pop instantly. For a DPSer, who has to wait 10ish minutes for a group, saving 3 minutes off a run may not let you squeeze one more in in your playtime for that session, for a tank it can add up really fast.

As the healer who has had trouble keeping the tank alive due to how fast they run: "hey, someone died and I have to res them" or "hey, I have to stand still to cast you know!" to which I've received replies of "so?  Keep up."  My druid healer doesn't have this issue too much since I can just toss rolling 3-4 HoTs on the tank and focus on the DPS, but my priest and shaman tend to have to stand around and cast their heals, leading to tanks running out of range or out of LoS.  And my healers get groups in 30s or less too, so I know it can really add up, but if we spend 10m on multiple times wiping and recovering from dead players, etc, that's 10m that could have been avoided had we been running slightly slower.

And another "lol bad" group.  I was healing AN just now on my priest and the average DPS was 1200.  A warlock did 1900, the warrior tank did 1500, the rogue did 1200, and a DK did 800.  I started ridiculing them after one was bragging about how well he was doing.  We barely beat the final boss since the rogue stood right in the range of pound on the first pull, instantly dying with a "lol sorry" after I told him if he did it he was going to die.  Then I barely had enough mana to manage the rest of the fight, and I've been able to heal ToC-10 and ICC-10 without issue, so I knew it was a bad group.  No add management, they just let the adds beat on the healer and didn't bother to pull them off of me either.