Are you pleased with this content tier?

[kildorn]

10 man wasn't really a "you suck" parallel progression as much as removing a lot of the org overhead needed to raid. Running a large raid guild is not fun, and is a royal bitch to get everyone's schedules right and such.

That said, if 25s want to crank up the difficulty, that seems to be the route they're going (optional encounters like 3 drakes up gives better loot for a harder fight, or you can do the easier method for less loot)

[Ingmar]

Another little anecdotal bit of evidence that something needed to change, I used to zone into a AV to see half the raid wearing valor shoulders.  

So really they needed to open things up just to spread the fugly around a bit.

[Hindenburg]

What about the paladins with Ice Barbed Spears and rogues with Glacial Blades and Lobotomizers? 

[Nevermore]

In regards to the responses about  entitlement and content, do you feel entitled to play against a chess grandmaster because you picked up a copy of Chessmaster 4000 one day? If you can't master the jumping in Super Mario, are you still entitled to beat Bowser?

The "I pay money I deserve" argument, in addition to being logically flawed, is (actually) reducible to the absurd. You pay money to be able to access the content.

Your examples are of single player games.  WoW is a multiplayer game which is why your analogies simply don't apply.  The 'skill' involved in the old vanilla game raids was that of coordination between yourself and 39 of your closest friends for hours upon hours at a time.  That was the block to the end game content.  It isn't about 'deserve', it's about just what you said in the follow-up sentence: to be able to access the content.  If you could not get into (or didn't have the time to do) 40 man raids, you could not access the content.  This is a marked difference to what we see today, where the end game consists much more of shorter 10 man instances, with the option of 25 man if you really like to herd cats.

And to answer your other question about casuals in vanilla WoW, my experience back then was much the same as Ingmar's.  The small guild I was in consisted of old guildies from DAoC (first server).  We had great fun playing from 1-59, but once the we realized the endgame consisted of A) 40 man BS and/or B) endless factions grinds and attunements ever single one of us quit within a few months.  Now that the end game is more casual friendly, the one's I've stayed in touch with are back.  Since pretty much everyone in this thread but you seems happy with the way the end game is now, how much more anecdotal evidence do you need?

[kildorn]

What about the paladins with Ice Barbed Spears and rogues with Glacial Blades and Lobotomizers? 

Man, fuck them for making that a quest instead of a HUGE GODDAMNED KILL THE NPC DISTRACTION EVERY FUCKING AV

Though I sort of miss the 16 hour AVs.

[Ironwood]

Retarded thread is retarded.

I run a large guild.  I've not seen all the content.  Just like this point, the rest of your argument is so flawed it's giggleable.

Stop polishing your armor with my tears.

 

Your counter-argument is so eloquent that I can find no flaw in its substance-less void to critique.

No really, I totally accept that my position isn't going to appeal to a lot of people. I expected it to be critiqued, but ideally via some semblance of a well marshaled argument. If I wanted responses using ad absurdo arguments, I'd have posted on WoW general.

In regards to the responses about  entitlement and content, do you feel entitled to play against a chess grandmaster because you picked up a copy of Chessmaster 4000 one day? If you can't master the jumping in Super Mario, are you still entitled to beat Bowser?

The "I pay money I deserve" argument, in addition to being logically flawed, is (actually) reducible to the absurd. You pay money to be able to access the content. You are not entitled to anything beyond that. I am not suggesting that the vast majority of the playerbase be relegated to dailies and 5 mans again, I think that's a bad design philosophy. Similarly, I was  not suggesting that resist fights need to come back anymore than the rest of you, I was merely pointing out that Saphirron *is* a resist fight that is trivialized by being undertuned (if you assume that adequate tuning for a resist fight is that you have to wear resist gear to be successful).

You need to stop reducing this to stereotypes. Am I suggesting that no one but the most hardcore ever see the entry level content? No. I am, however, proposing the idea that it might be wise to tune content such that it requires a bit more execution and adequate (not exceptional) playing skills.  For the vast majority of you, that means you'd still clear it, but maybe not in the first couple of weeks, and you might wipe a couple times a night. On the flipside, you at least get some sense of accomplishment in knowing that the stuff didn't fall over dead for you after you looked at it the wrong way. Is this so terribly undesirable?

Fuck me, you're lucky I didn't just dismiss you with 'You mispelled Tier.'

By the way, you mispelled tier.

And your argument is flawed and retarded.

[Phunked]

I miss herding my cats :(

I guess I'm not thinking as far back as Vanilla (I took it for granted that endgame needed 39 other people. I mean that's how it was and I never thought about it. I've become more aware of things since). But if you look back at the nerf whining in TBC from the 4/5, 4/9 guilds (post attunement drop) they COULD herd 25 cats. They just had lousy, flea ridden cats. It seemed that the issue they were having wasn't people in terms of numbers by people in terms of quality.

Now that you can do the exact same content on 10 man, would you really complain that 25 man should penalize or at least discourage corpse cannon approaches?

[Phunked]

Retarded thread is retarded.

I run a large guild.  I've not seen all the content.  Just like this point, the rest of your argument is so flawed it's giggleable.

Stop polishing your armor with my tears.

 

Your counter-argument is so eloquent that I can find no flaw in its substance-less void to critique.

No really, I totally accept that my position isn't going to appeal to a lot of people. I expected it to be critiqued, but ideally via some semblance of a well marshaled argument. If I wanted responses using ad absurdo arguments, I'd have posted on WoW general.

In regards to the responses about  entitlement and content, do you feel entitled to play against a chess grandmaster because you picked up a copy of Chessmaster 4000 one day? If you can't master the jumping in Super Mario, are you still entitled to beat Bowser?

The "I pay money I deserve" argument, in addition to being logically flawed, is (actually) reducible to the absurd. You pay money to be able to access the content. You are not entitled to anything beyond that. I am not suggesting that the vast majority of the playerbase be relegated to dailies and 5 mans again, I think that's a bad design philosophy. Similarly, I was  not suggesting that resist fights need to come back anymore than the rest of you, I was merely pointing out that Saphirron *is* a resist fight that is trivialized by being undertuned (if you assume that adequate tuning for a resist fight is that you have to wear resist gear to be successful).

You need to stop reducing this to stereotypes. Am I suggesting that no one but the most hardcore ever see the entry level content? No. I am, however, proposing the idea that it might be wise to tune content such that it requires a bit more execution and adequate (not exceptional) playing skills.  For the vast majority of you, that means you'd still clear it, but maybe not in the first couple of weeks, and you might wipe a couple times a night. On the flipside, you at least get some sense of accomplishment in knowing that the stuff didn't fall over dead for you after you looked at it the wrong way. Is this so terribly undesirable?

Fuck me, you're lucky I didn't just dismiss you with 'You mispelled Tier.'

By the way, you mispelled tier.

And your argument is flawed and retarded.

I'd since corrected the typo (before you made this post).

EDIT: Apparently I hadn't. Fixed now. Win?

[Ingmar]

What about the paladins with Ice Barbed Spears and rogues with Glacial Blades and Lobotomizers? 

Man, fuck them for making that a quest instead of a HUGE GODDAMNED KILL THE NPC DISTRACTION EVERY FUCKING AV

Though I sort of miss the 16 hour AVs.

God that was annoying. "Good job guys, we've pushed them back into their base, let's win this thing!"

Korrak the Bloodrager spawns, raid erupts with "OMG I NEED QUEST" and they all zerg north.  

[Fordel]

Then one asshole who was not in the raid would tag him and everyone would mass flee in order to reset him.

[kildorn]

Lifting attunements wasn't casual accessible in the sense of meaning everyone can BEAT the content and continue on.

It was casual accessible in that it removed what was essentially an organizational block on the content. You had to herd cats into getting keyed to shit, it was an obnoxious waste of everyone's time in all cases. It was an especially shitty burden on casual guilds who were not used to/prepared to/willing to crack the whip on people to get everyone they needed attuned before even getting online to raid for the night.

40 man raids were nothing if not herding what amounted to a frat party into trying to shut the fuck up and kill the goddamned raid targets. It's still that, but with less constant desire to kill them all. Just join General in any raid zone and you can still experience the shit I'd gkick fuckers for spamming in raid. <3

[Phunked]

40 man raids were nothing if not herding what amounted to a frat party into trying to shut the fuck up and kill the goddamned raid targets. It's still that, but with less constant desire to kill them all. Just join General in any raid zone and you can still experience the shit I'd gkick fuckers for spamming in raid. <3

I haven't had any non guild channels shown since MC. Apparently bad shit goes down there. Confirm/deny?

[Ironwood]

Well, now you've configured to my standards of English :

So now that any Jimmy and Susie can clear all the content in a pug while doing 1500 DPS so that they can win a roll on best in slot gear and then fail to enchant it, we've come full circle from from Vanilla WoW where if you had more than MC BoE epix, you were "hardcore" (yes, even then shitty guilds that never got past BWL/Prophet Skerram raided enough to be hardcore, they just had a revolving roster of people who were bad at this game).  

That's some paragraph.  I don't even know what you're saying.  Who cares if they don't enchant it ?  Who cares if they win it ?  Who, in fact, are Jimmy and Susie ?  Further, MC BoE epix were hardcore ?  Maybe.  Not to me or the guild.  They were just a bunch of people who were more organised and, frankly, pitied.  Sure, we went to MC.  But it was, in fact, shit boring.  Like, really, really boring.  It wasn't even fun.  It was a cave.  A really, really long fucking cave.  No wonder no-one progressed, since the shit in there was needed to progress and, frankly, it was, as mentioned, shit and boring.

Now, EVERYONE has seen all the content. No really. Everyone. If you haven't its pretty much because you explicitly do not want to. I know people who only log on for 20 minutes a night that have (incrementally) cleared all of Naxx25. The opinion on these boards, especially around TBC when raiding was accessible to many, but progression was not, was that 'hardcore' raiding took poopsocking, spreadsheeting and whatever the hell else, and sure as hell wasn't fun. Now that it isn't this way, are you happy?

Nope, not everyone.  I mean, sure you can capitalise it all you want like an enormous douchebag, but it doesn't make it true.  For evidence, just look at my FOURTEEN FOOT LONG PENIS.  I want to see all the content.  I want to clear it !  Haven't yet.  There's this wee kiddie thing in the way.  God, that bitch is demanding.  I should probably let her starve while festering in her own shit.  That'll teach her when I'm all purpled up AND ENCHANTED !!!  I am happy with the game.  Strangely.

This is mostly my attempt to figure out how much differentiation people want to see between the hardcore and the casual. Too much, and casuals feel perpetually left behind.

You have no understanding of the distinction, never mind the differentiation.  Really.

Too little, and there's no challenge to this game for anyone with half a braincell. We 20 manned 25+3 the other night because someone needed both achievements. I'm not saying this to /epeen because this is hardly difficult.

Right, right.  You realise you just killed your 'half a brain cell' argument ?

Hell, most guilds have 5 idiots who either do zero DPS from moving too much for walls, or die in voids. All we did was just not take the extra 5 in the first place.

How wondrous for you.  Where did you dredge to find such mentally challenged feebles ?  Or is this from the same land of Made up Make Believe as 'ALL THE CONTENT.  ALL THE GI JOES.  ALL THE CONTENT !!!!

 

Is this what you wanted to see when you said that T6 content was too hard and inaccessible to the casual gamer?

The game, as is, is just about right where I want it.  Also, a lot of people.  Tell you what, in future, when the sky is falling, can you show us a picture of the sky falling ?  Similarly, when you're dissatisfied with the game, wanna stop pretending that you are the world ?

'Cause you're not.  You're not even clever.  The games you want are over that way.  Dying a fucking sub death.

I'm done now.  Seriously.

Please, feel free to flame the living shit out of me. But do try to answer the question.

Ok.

[kildorn]

40 man raids were nothing if not herding what amounted to a frat party into trying to shut the fuck up and kill the goddamned raid targets. It's still that, but with less constant desire to kill them all. Just join General in any raid zone and you can still experience the shit I'd gkick fuckers for spamming in raid. <3

I haven't had any non guild channels shown since MC. Apparently bad shit goes down there. Confirm/deny?

I have them on randomly for Wintergrasp raid invites.

I forget to turn them off on raid nights. OH DEAR GOD WHY.

[Phunked]

That's some paragraph.  I don't even know what you're saying.  Who cares if they don't enchant it ?  Who cares if they win it ?  Who, in fact, are Jimmy and Susie ?  Further, MC BoE epix were hardcore ?  Maybe.  Not to me or the guild.  They were just a bunch of people who were more organised and, frankly, pitied.  Sure, we went to MC.  But it was, in fact, shit boring.  Like, really, really boring.  It wasn't even fun.  It was a cave.  A really, really long fucking cave.  No wonder no-one progressed, since the shit in there was needed to progress and, frankly, it was, as mentioned, shit and boring.

I never suggested that MC was the epitome of fun. I, for one, hate the MC nostalgia shit. I'm not sure what exactly you're attacking here, since this seems to be mostly "RAWR ANGRY MOTHERFUCKER". What bothers you so?

Nope, not everyone.  I mean, sure you can capitalise it all you want like an enormous douchebag, but it doesn't make it true.  For evidence, just look at my FOURTEEN FOOT LONG PENIS.  I want to see all the content.  I want to clear it !  Haven't yet.  There's this wee kiddie thing in the way.  God, that bitch is demanding.  I should probably let her starve while festering in her own shit.  That'll teach her when I'm all purpled up AND ENCHANTED !!!  I am happy with the game.  Strangely.

Two argument tracks I can take here:

1. If your kid is anything like you, please to be letting her die for the benefit of our gene pool.

Nope, that one seems a bit harsh, and perhaps not wholly warranted. Let's try track number two.

2. I was probably a bit over zealous when I said that EVERYONE had done. Sorry, that should be everyone. How about most people? A sizable portion? More than ever had at any previous point in the game? Still not good enough? What about 'just myself and my friends and my neighbor's daughter who I'm having an affair with and that prev who keeps peeking through the curtains?'. Is that sufficiently self-centered for you? I mean I may or may not have been suggesting that this content was about as accessible as it was going to get, barring stuff like newly procreated offspring, crack addiction or hot new girlfriend with insatiable sex-drive. But that's too fine a distinction.

Hmm. I don't much like argument line 2 either. Can I just go back to yelling REALLY LOUDLY BECAUSE CAPS ARE SRS? That seemed to work better for me.

You have no understanding of the distinction, never mind the differentiation.  Really.

Well that sucks. Care to enlighten me all knowing guru? I mean if we're going to have two categories of loosely defined opposites which we further subdivide into any number of distinctions which we conveniently abbreviate as a linguistic shorthand, I'd better be sure I'm getting them right. Is casual under 2 hours a week or is it no more than 2 instances a night or what? Please tell me, I'm dying to know.

 

Right, right.  You realise you just killed your 'half a brain cell' argument ?

That's a shame.

How wondrous for you.  Where did you dredge to find such mentally challenged feebles ?  Or is this from the same land of Made up Make Believe as 'ALL THE CONTENT.  ALL THE GI JOES.  ALL THE CONTENT !!!!

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, because your 'argument' seems to have devolved into ANGRYMAN again. And I haven't even suggested anything negative about your playstyle or life choices yet. Imagine what'll happen when I do that. If you missed it (and you did) I was making a point that doing the hardmode with 80% of the requisite raid team suggests that even the HARDCOARZ ONLY!111!! shit is too easy. Since you are, presumably, not hardcore, why would you get upset that I find this undesirable? Any changes to this would have no effect on you.

The game, as is, is just about right where I want it.  Also, a lot of people.  Tell you what, in future, when the sky is falling, can you show us a picture of the sky falling ?  Similarly, when you're dissatisfied with the game, wanna stop pretending that you are the world ?

'Cause you're not.  You're not even clever.  The games you want are over that way.  Dying a fucking sub death.

I'm done now.  Seriously.

The whole stuck up hardcore hates us all thing is really getting old. You seem to get so FUCKING ANGRY that some people find content too easy. And then (absurd I know!) they ask if other people find content too easy. Then they suggest that maybe some content can be easy and some can be hard so that everyone gets to see the difficulty mode they want to get out of this game. I mean this is obviously going to detract from your personal satisfaction.  I'm also glad that you switched from ad absurdo to ad hominem. Moving up in the logical fallacy world!

[Fraeg]

Pve sure, fine, i like that it is accessible, did a 10 man naxx finally, and walked away with the conclusion that I had more fun when it was a 40 man raid.

the thing that prevents me from logging on to Wow is the "you must be this tall to buy nice pvp gear" schtick they are using.  I would rather play a reskinned mmo by Frogster and craft away than play pvp with the "My gear is 10x better than yours, heh and you can't even buy this gear because your arena score is too low"

-yes I am bitter.  I have known it for sometime, but liking pvp and actually being good at it are two very different things 

[Musashi]

I think we should just turn this thread into proposed grief titles for this loony.

I propose the following:

"is not to be taken seriously."

or

"likes 14 ft penis."

or really that should be, "LIKES 14 FT PENIS!!11!"

[Phunked]

I think we should just turn this thread into proposed grief titles for this loony.

I propose the following:

"is not to be taken seriously."

or

"likes 14 ft penis."

or really that should be, "LIKES 14 FT PENIS!!11!"

14 inches sure. That'd fill me up nicely.

14 feet? That might start to hurt.

[March]

<Snip>
I am, however, proposing the idea that it might be wise to tune content such that it requires a bit more execution and adequate (not exceptional) playing skills.  For the vast majority of you, that means you'd still clear it, but maybe not in the first couple of weeks, and you might wipe a couple times a night. On the flipside, you at least get some sense of accomplishment in knowing that the stuff didn't fall over dead for you after you looked at it the wrong way. Is this so terribly undesirable?

I think this thread has pretty well run its course, but I do want to raise a tangential issue that is skirted, but never quite openly adressed in the WoW raider milieu:

The assumption that what separates the "hardcore" from the "casual" is *skill*

My consistent experience in all MMO's is that 80% of the hardcore "skill" comes from augmented abilities/spells/stats that are the result of time (i.e. loot) and definitely not the skill of the individual player.  Extra marks of course go for organization and teamwork... but that is a matter of good leadership and following orders - not what I would precisely call, skill.  If I could screen for leadership and following abilities I could rule the MMO world.

Another way to put it is this: If I could substitute a good skilled "follower" in greens and have success, then I say ratchet-the-fuck-up.

But since Skill does not really exist, or, better put, skill is trumped by gear... and gear is only accessible via progression... and progression is only available via time commitments... then I'm only really looking at gear and pretending it is skill.

I've been healing in MMO's for almost a decade... give my Druid Tier XX gear, one night to acclimate to pace and my new output, and I'll heal your ass through any content you want.

I know this is near heresy in a PvE game, and it begs the question of why raid if not for loot that makes content accessible... but I might suggest that the first game to provide meaningful advancement and content that can fulfill the "bring the person not the toon" mantra will be The Next Big Thing (tm).

<and this goes double for PvP>

As far as the whole raider v. casual thing in WoTLK... another way to look at it from the hardcore point of view is that you might actually have a larger pool of "skilled" players from which to chose since the gear differential is less radically segmented (at the earlier stages) than at any other point in WoW's development.

Optimistic thought courtesy of Jack Handey.

[Lantyssa]

How can two red pandas be at such extremes?  The world may never know.

[Phunked]

<Snip>
I am, however, proposing the idea that it might be wise to tune content such that it requires a bit more execution and adequate (not exceptional) playing skills.  For the vast majority of you, that means you'd still clear it, but maybe not in the first couple of weeks, and you might wipe a couple times a night. On the flipside, you at least get some sense of accomplishment in knowing that the stuff didn't fall over dead for you after you looked at it the wrong way. Is this so terribly undesirable?

I think this thread has pretty well run its course, but I do want to raise a tangential issue that is skirted, but never quite openly adressed in the WoW raider milieu:

The assumption that what separates the "hardcore" from the "casual" is *skill*

My consistent experience in all MMO's is that 80% of the hardcore "skill" comes from augmented abilities/spells/stats that are the result of time (i.e. loot) and definitely not the skill of the individual player.  Extra marks of course go for organization and teamwork... but that is a matter of good leadership and following orders - not what I would precisely call, skill.  If I could screen for leadership and following abilities I could rule the MMO world.

Another way to put it is this: If I could substitute a good skilled "follower" in greens and have success, then I say ratchet-the-fuck-up.

But since Skill does not really exist, or, better put, skill is trumped by gear... and gear is only accessible via progression... and progression is only available via time commitments... then I'm only really looking at gear and pretending it is skill.

I've been healing in MMO's for almost a decade... give my Druid Tier XX gear, one night to acclimate to pace and my new output, and I'll heal your ass through any content you want.

I know this is near heresy in a PvE game, and it begs the question of why raid if not for loot that makes content accessible... but I might suggest that the first game to provide meaningful advancement and content that can fulfill the "bring the person not the toon" mantra will be The Next Big Thing (tm).

<and this goes double for PvP>

As far as the whole raider v. casual thing in WoTLK... another way to look at it from the hardcore point of view is that you might actually have a larger pool of "skilled" players from which to chose since the gear differential is less radically segmented (at the earlier stages) than at any other point in WoW's development.

Optimistic thought courtesy of Jack Handey.

If you play in a top 25 guild, you have the fortunate combination of playing with people who both have skill and gear. This makes the game about 50x more fun than anything else; I get great satisfaction from pulls where we execute perfectly. You can overskill a lot more content than you can outgear, even now. I totally agree that making skill and not gear based progression would satisfy all of my complaints. Sadly however, people like you are the minority. The majority of players are neither time rich nor skilled. As such, the next big thing will be the game that combines skill based progression with something to do for the not so skilled (iie counterstrike),

[Rasix]

Get over yourself. 

[K9]

I have to agree with the people that liked old AV. While it was impossible to get anything done, it was about the only PvP I ever have done in WoW that actually felt like an epic battle. What it has been watered down to is beyond a pale comparison. If they were to bring back one thing from vanilla, for me this would be it.

[Ingmar]

The difference between hardcore and casual has always been pretty simple to define in my mind.

Did you fill out an application to join your guild? Congrats, you're not casual.

[Fordel]

But I like filling out web forms! :(

[Paelos]

Get over yourself. 

I agree. This thread is getting ridiculous about the epeen, and it's verging into the horrible territory of the "Is there skill involved in MMOs" debate that's been done about 99,999,999 times.

We answered the question. We're happy. Move on.

[Lantyssa]

If you play in a top 25 guild, you have the fortunate combination of playing with people who both have skill and gear. This makes the game about 50x more fun than anything else; I get great satisfaction from pulls where we execute perfectly. You can overskill a lot more content than you can outgear, even now. I totally agree that making skill and not gear based progression would satisfy all of my complaints. Sadly however, people like you are the minority. The majority of players are neither time rich nor skilled. As such, the next big thing will be the game that combines skill based progression with something to do for the not so skilled (iie counterstrike),

Do you want to show the world how skilled you are?  Have your entire raid decked out in greens.  Instant challenge.  Brag about it and maybe they'll turn it into an achievement.

[Fordel]

That would be a pretty awesome achievement, like, for serious and stuff.

"We didn't want those epics anyways"

[Hindenburg]

Overrated cleared BWL in greens a few times after the C'thun ban. They also raped DnT in AB while sporting greens. Not even that stopped the guild from crashing and burning. One of their guildies even became a porn actress 

Old AV was trash. Fucking horrible honor per hour. Also got boring as fuck after Lokholar was summoned. Rose tinted glasses.

[pants]

I think we should all be thankful that Phunked has deemed to talk to us.

Of course, his name is close to this guys.  Coincidence? 



(hope this works, tentonhammer is blocked at work)

[Ratman_tf]

The ideal goal is to not wind up with 5% of your playerbase using 60% of your endgame. That's blatantly a business model begging someone else to come be the next big thing.

I've mentioned to Sly before that I think WoW's endgame is a huge achillies heel. Blizz is closing the window slowly, though.

But I wonder how well a game that was as fun as WoW, but killed the raidgame and replaced it with soloing and 5 man content, would do. Yeah, I'm talking about purple quest rewards and tier gear for 5 man dungeons.

[Ironwood]

OK, just to be absolutely SURE, I've done over all the posts in question.

Phunked, this game is no longer for you.

Quit it.

Seriously.  Quit it.  Move on.

And then we won't have to be subjected to threads where you use the most insane and fucked up logic to justify a position that has little or not grounding in reality.


As for this little nugget of gem-like turd :

If you play in a top 25 guild, you have the fortunate combination of playing with people who both have skill and gear. This makes the game about 50x more fun than anything else; I get great satisfaction from pulls where we execute perfectly. You can overskill a lot more content than you can outgear, even now. I totally agree that making skill and not gear based progression would satisfy all of my complaints. Sadly however, people like you are the minority. The majority of players are neither time rich nor skilled. As such, the next big thing will be the game that combines skill based progression with something to do for the not so skilled (iie counterstrike),

Seriously, if the gear is a problem and makes the whole game so very tiringly easy for your precious little noggin, then do what people have suggested.  Run the fucking instance in Twill Gear.  Seriously.  Give it a shot.  MAKE THE GAME FUN FOR YOURSELF RATHER THAN COMING HERE AND PISSING ON US.

That's what really gets me.  You didn't come here to ask a question (since you clearly can't actually handle the answer), you came here to show off.  Frankly, your drama zomg I'm so cool nonsense is boring.  What makes it worse is that every time someone calls you on it, you're all 'No, it's Not about me, why do you make it about me, it's not about me, but anyway, I can't enjoy this instance when I raid it with my 24 other chaps who are made of solid gold and titanium.  Also, they don't ever speak on Vent but use the POWER OF OUR MINDS to talk to each long distance.'

Also, what Rasix Said. Times around a thousand.

Finally;  Skill.  In WoW ?  Lol.  Lol times around a fucking thousand.  This is not a game of skill.  It's not even remotely a game of skill.

But we've done that argument.  A thousand times.  And, when we do it again, Schild Comes.

You don't want that.

[Xanthippe]

Overrated cleared BWL in greens a few times after the C'thun ban. They also raped DnT in AB while sporting greens. Not even that stopped the guild from crashing and burning. One of their guildies even became a porn actress 

Which one was that?

I loved visiting Overrated when they were leveling up.  They were fun to grief and good sports about it.

[Hindenburg]

Bucwild 

Can't remember, happened after they moved to korgath, so i'd already stopped tracking them. Think mot had also quit by then.

[El Gallo]

I don't raid much.  My favorite part of the game is 5-man dungeons.  Heroic WotLK 5-mans are way, way too easy.  Just with quest gear from levelling my group ripped through all the heroics right after hitting 80.  The people I run 5-mans with weren't geared either.  I'm not particularly skilled (hell, I keyboard turn almost all the time in PvE).  We run with both a prot warrior and a prot pally because we're too lazy to respec.  We don't use vent.  But we beat them all, easily.  You can basically hit random keys and come out OK.

I'd love to see a harder mode of 5-man.