Gaming: Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2

[Atlas]

Xilren,

I accept some people dont like the level or repeition involved in some games and even said if thats the case then dont play the game.

I do accept your point on some levels about the example not being 100% the same. You make interesting points. I do however feel that in any skill or advancement based action you will repeat actions over and over again, sometimes in baseball all you do is just bat over and over again, batting practice. That is just as repetative and demands the same coeeficent, time.

One comment as well. I would be be definition a power game , due to the time I have to play the game, my wife has cancer I have to care for her, so I do have one question in regards to a point you made. Who says the endgame is fun? DAOC was a bit boring to me at the end game, EQ was mind numbing hours of raiding. I hate to say this, the end games are just as repetitive as the beginning. I fear if you are looking for a massive reward or change at the end of any game you wont find it. Its still a mathmatical system with limits, regardless of your level in it. I never said I spoke the truth of gaming I just said I spoke the definitions of advancement and repitition in advancement based situations.

I appreeciate the mostly civil comments though Xilren.

[Alluvian]

That is just as repetative and demands the same coeeficent, time

I disagree.  The coeficient in baseball is skill.  Skill can be improved to some degree with practice, but no matter how much I practice I will never be a MLB star.  Others are naturally gifted and pick it up quickly.

Also, batting practice gains you some degree of skill.  Killing in a foozle does not.  It increments your character's skill.  There is very little if any player skill in these games.  And the reasons for it (lag) are mostly fluff.

[Arnold]

If you don't expect the endgame to be fun, why on earth do you put up with the grind?

By the way, who says that MMORPGs must have advancement, and lots of it?  EQ is a popular model, but it's not the only one.

[Atlas]

HaemishM, intersting points and good to see you have made attempts but as I said in my very first post, in light of current technology the systems that you all are asking for are not possible.

I see the developers do agree. And if you think they and I are wrong, which we may be, then please challenge and it push technology, that is how innovations are made. I wish you luck on that, valdi attempts at that will be much more productive than bashing people who dont agree and present opnions with thoughts to explain them. Interesting thoughts and I look foward to see what you develop. ALthough in an advancement based game you cant have linear power structures do to the fact that those that have more time to play advance more quickly. Time is the undenyable coefficent to advancement.

Alluvian

Interesting points as well but somewhat erroneous. EQ actually has quests and it has been done before to level your character all the way to 65 without killing a single thing. I think it has been done on Cazic Thule, I will see if I can find which server for sure.  So people might perhaps choose to only kill but it is not the only way. Quest based levelers whom do not wish to kill are a very small minority of the player based as evidenced by the people who take advantage of that levelling avenue in existing games where it is presented. Most people dont even know most of the quests available in EQ much less utilize them. I do see the point of your post and respect it, I just know that current game systems do allow what you seek but it is miserably under utilized and ironically very repetitive.

[Atlas]

Arnold,

I dont know who said that. Sims has no advancment. UO doesnt demand it, Most games actually dont, just seems to be a sticking point.


Alluvian


I still somewhat disagree , although this might be a point we just agree to disagree on.

I level much faster than my friends in the same amount of time. As you said people have ability levels that are reflective of thier skill. Considering that arguement true then there must be a reason related to my skill and how I play my character to account for the fact I level faster than friends of the same class and race in the same areas.

That would be my skill would it not considering the characters skills are as you have pointed out exaclty the same?

[Arthur_Parker]

Nice troll Atlas, as someone who writes very well your basic point comes down to if "you don't like it don't play it"?

Which was your favourite game and what elements of it made it so?

It's easy to show up on a dead thread, throw stones in and disappear into the distance feeling superior, but apart from the fact that we know you have lots of free time to play we don't know much else...


Edited cause I never could spell.

[Alluvian]

Interesting points as well but somewhat erroneous. EQ actually has quests and it has been done before to level your character all the way to 65 without killing a single thing. I think it has been done on Cazic Thule, I will see if I can find which server for sure. So people might perhaps choose to only kill but it is not the only way.

Yeah, and I'll bet it was done by handing in 16 billion purchased/dropped items to some bugged NPC.  EXP rewards for questing have always been negligable in EQ and as a longtime player you damn well know that.  I have a 59 myself, and although I choose not to gring much his /played is embarassingly high.  Anyone questing to 65 is really damn bored and only doing it to show that he can.  Everything in EQ revolves around combat except for some post office delivery quests.  There is no purpose to level in that game beyond combat.  And leveling through quests makes a useless noskill character that still has to grind monsters after all that to defeat a fruit fly.

[HaemishM]

I dont know who said that. Sims has no advancment. UO doesnt demand it, Most games actually dont, just seems to be a sticking point.

Yes, actually they both did. Sims Online had those stupid things like making gnomes or pizzas or whatever it was that was almost required to upgrade your place. UO had skill advancement.

The difference between UO and EQ in terms of advancement? The amount of time it took you to be "competitive" with most of the player base or able to see and survive most of the content in UO was a great deal less than in EQ. And almost every game since EQ has followed its mold.

[Alluvian]

Considering that arguement true then there must be a reason related to my skill and how I play my character to account for the fact I level faster than friends of the same class and race in the same areas.

You're deluding yourself.  Maybe your friends grind like I grind.  20 minutes, then instead of sticking a gun in your head they get up to wander the kitchen like a zombie looking for something to eat, then go back, kill a few things, start watching TV, forget the character sitting there on the ground as you find the geiko commercial more fun than the foozle.

The fact that you can stay working joblike at gaining experience when your friends are slower/more distracted or talking to other friends does not grant you one iota of skill.  You are just a bigger glutton for punishment.  As shown by how many different games you have 'catassed to victory' in.

[daveNYC]

Quest based levelers whom do not wish to kill are a very small minority of the player based as evidenced by the people who take advantage of that levelling avenue in existing games where it is presented.

Is that because players aren't interested in questing, or is it because the game is designed with more foozles to wack then quests to do?  Games like EQ have a population that overall is OK with massive time investment, and level grind technology.  The people who loath that gameplay have probably already quit.

Puzzle Pirates has puzzle based combat/crafting/travel, and ATITD has mini-game based crafting.  Their successes indicate that there is more potential for growth in the MMOG field.

By your argument, we would have never gotten System Shock or Deus Ex, because "If you want character development, go play a RPG."

[Atlas]

Acutally I mentioned some other paths and people on this board have taken them, I did say that considering the current crop of MMORPG and how they dont meet the needs people have expressed they should not play. MMORPG as we currently know them do not meet the demands mentioned here.

Should I have told them tough and play them? It seems no opnion besides utter agreement is acceptable.

Actually I have active accounts in 6 games, all of them have pros and cons. I play for the social aspect, I have a group of friends I play all the games with, and because I do enjoy seeing new enviorments and helping to Beta test games. Its a hobby I can enjoy and due inside my constraints as defined by RL.

I do apologize I was linked this thread and didnt realize it was a mostly dead issue. A message board fou pa, I agree and I do apologize.

And Arthur Im touched, you want to know more about me? Well you first, ASL?

I didnt know it had bearing on my opnion.

[Xilren's Twin]

I do accept your point on some levels about the example not being 100% the same. You make interesting points. I do however feel that in any skill or advancement based action you will repeat actions over and over again, sometimes in baseball all you do is just bat over and over again, batting practice. That is just as repetative and demands the same coeeficent, time.

Sure, but it's optional unless your on an organized team like a school or semi/pro and your coach (read boss) makes you.  If you simply play baseball for fun, batting practice is not a requirement (though heading down to the batting cages every so often is fun too) before you can play in a game.

I do have one question in regards to a point you made. Who says the endgame is fun?

Not me, but it's a common defense given by many powergamers as to why they put up with substandard gameplay.  "If i can just get to level X/skill Y, the game will be fun".  In EQ it was the raid game, in SB/DAoC it was the pvp.  Lin2 supposedly has that same stance; a fun pvp elder game that you can only experience by grinding through a metric ton of boring pve gameplay.  The thing is, even IF (and it's a big if) the endgame was more fun than barrel of naked drunk cheerleaders, many players will leave before they ever get that far.  And because the mathmatical level curve is totally arbirtrary, there really isn't any solid reason to make advancing to max take the average time that it does now.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying its impossible to enjoy such treadmill type games b/c obviously plenty of people do.  I just want much more than that.  I played EQ for 1.5 years, that was enough; I now want something better and when every subsequent "new" mmorpgs released since aren't "better" in anything other than graphics, I bitch about it.  Lin2 just happens to draw a lot of fire because it's like the epitome of everything I deem wrong or unenjoyable about the whole genre rolled up into a new package.  And I'm sure it will bit a hit, which reinforces the very suck I;m trying to avoid in future titles.

Xilren

Xilren

[Atlas]

Heading home all, will check this from the house.

Be well all.

Intersting debate once the conversation become somewhat civil.

[Arthur_Parker]

I do apologize I was linked this thread and didnt realize it was a mostly dead issue. A message board fou pa, I agree and I do apologize.

And Arthur Im touched, you want to know more about me? Well you first, ASL?

I didnt know it had bearing on my opnion.

I'm touched that you are touched, 34 Male UK.

The only thing you have posted here has been opinion, not seen any facts or figures, any links to documents supporting your "don't play it" argument so more information on your gaming background apart from the number of uber characters could be of interest.

It's a rather dark corner of the web you have been linked to, I'm just trying to get you to stick around and say more so I can watch the resulting fallout :)

Spelling again.

[daveNYC]

MMORPG as we currently know them do not meet the demands mentioned here.

Should I have told them tough and play them? It seems no opnion besides utter agreement is acceptable.

It's just that you forgot the third option: Demand something better.

[HaemishM]

I did say that considering the current crop of MMORPG and how they dont meet the needs people have expressed they should not play. MMORPG as we currently know them do not meet the demands mentioned here.

Should I have told them tough and play them? It seems no opnion besides utter agreement is acceptable.

Which is why I do not currently pay for or play any MMOG and why I gave Lineage 2 such a hard time. It is nothing whatsoever new the genre other than a different shiny. In many ways, it is a complete step back. It's as if someone made a new X-Box game that could have been made on the Atari 2600 and wants me to pay $50 buck for it like it's some new game. It's not. It's retread, and a crappy retread at that.

The stance of "Tough, play them" is the stance most the companies making these games have taken. Which is why I take Dave's option 3, and don't play or pay for anything until they make something that does appeal to me.

[Valle]

To hell with MMOG's with flashy graphics and no play value. Go play a MUD instead,and let your mind produce the graphics. Humm...that sounded a bit farfetched. Anywho:

Do you read books? Try some MUDs. Haven't read a book since the english teacher made the whole class read that book years ago? Forget MUDs.

[Morfiend]

Stuff

Stuff

Hey AP, isnt this basically the same conversation/argument you and I had about 5 pages back in this same thread?

And are you sure its the fallout you want in having him here, not just a fellow glutton for the Grind?

I did say that considering the current crop of MMORPG and how they dont meet the needs people have expressed they should not play. MMORPG as we currently know them do not meet the demands mentioned here.

Should I have told them tough and play them? It seems no opnion besides utter agreement is acceptable.

Which is why I do not currently pay for or play any MMOG and why I gave Lineage 2 such a hard time. It is nothing whatsoever new the genre other than a different shiny. In many ways, it is a complete step back. It's as if someone made a new X-Box game that could have been made on the Atari 2600 and wants me to pay $50 buck for it like it's some new game. It's not. It's retread, and a crappy retread at that.

The stance of "Tough, play them" is the stance most the companies making these games have taken. Which is why I take Dave's option 3, and don't play or pay for anything until they make something that does appeal to me.

Nice Haemish, thats what I was trying to say a few pages back in this thread, before it turned in to the "Pong" thread.

[Morfiend]

Double Post

[Rasix]

I could rehash the pong image if it makes you feel better.

[slog]

Sorry, you haven't been here for the last year and a half to see the ideas I've "presented to the developers." Perhaps I should archive my old series of articles on "The Mature MMOG," which did exactly that, giving my ideas about alternative approaches to MMOG design. Most of the devs who read them at the time told me I was crazy, my ideas were unworkable, too expensive, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, I'll start a mailing list and try to get devs to listen to my ideas about game design. Ideas are cheap; every idiot on a message board (including me) knows how to "fix" the current games. Devs have no shortage of ideas on how to fix it. They just have either no money, no time, or no desire to change the status quo which seems to be making them money.

I very simply stated that if you want to play and ADVANCEMENT based game then you will have to accept it takes time and repeition.

And I never stated that I wanted to play an advancement based game. I think focusing on advancement based games is strangling our industry in a vortex of suck stronger than fluffers on a porn set. I want a game that eschews linear-based advancement in favor of a flat power curve.

Less levelling, more adventuring, y0.

It should be obvious by now that there isn't a game coming out anytime sooon like that.

[Atlas]

Ok trying to slowly dig through the posts, forgive me if I miss a point, not ignoring anyone on purpose.

Arthuer, I would unfortunately agree with Slog forthe most part. a MMORPG that doesnt require advancement does not seem to be in the works.

I would recommend making one to meet the market demand you say is there, demanding a better one obviously hasnt worked as evidenced by your own comments.

Actually contact Sony's Investor Relations Board and they can provide usage and profit statistics, I can provide the link but I would assume that both Sony and Mythic for that matter are familiar to you and the websites are not to difficult to naviagate. If so though please let me know and I will get you the contact numbers.

I still fail to see how my personal details are relevant, and I would argue that the nature of MMORPG which is in fact your complaint is documentation of the current machanics of them. Please let me know though and I can provide links to some sites that have broken  Code and can show the exp needed and kills needed for each level in DAOC and EQ. I will have to look more in depth for AO and FFXI.

If a opposing opnion causes fallout then I fear you will have a hard time negotiating your stance with any game developer you find willing to entertain your ideals. I hope that isnt the case.

Xilren, A common defense that powergames use perhaps, but just like any sport when played to repitition, I lettered in 2 sports in high school, because mind numbing so does the end game and I have never used that defense, I accept you have seen it used before.

Dave,Actually at Fan Faire in Orlando the developers of EQ held a conference on quests and thier functionality. I would assume because it is a business model that the paying player base, of which you all are by decleation not, do not wish to quest as much as you do, and there fore do not garnish the business effort. The comments given during Fan Faire where just that there wasnt enough response. I will see if Sony has transcripts of this but Im not sure they do.

Alluvan, Im not sure how Im deluding myself in any game concentration is part of skill. By your argument concentration has no effect on skill.  I would hate  to see someone attempt to hit a 85 mile per hour fast ball not paying attention or hit it and then not watch the ball after to see how many bases they might take. I would say they would fare poorly. Skill is a combination of many things, observation and concentration being two of them.  Side note: Actually it wasnt from bug quests , the player was even given the title. Im sure it was repatitive for him but any game system will be given technology at this time.

So let me ask this since you all have clearly defined what you dont want and only loosely defined what you do.

What do you want? State in definative games terms and examples of mechanics. I am curious only because any advance of any type will favor those with more time to play. How will you make it so that someone that plays 40 hours a week has the same abilities as someone who plays 8 hours a week? Define non linear advancement.

[Arthur_Parker]

Hey AP, isnt this basically the same conversation/argument you and I had about 5 pages back in this same thread?

Nope don't think so, Atlas is being rude in more sorta general way towards everyone, you picked me out especially.  Atlas has a point even though I disagree with it, you didn't appear to have one.

Edited to add Atlas, you need to go reread this thread, (if you can bothered), already explained my position in depth and don't see the need to further.  Short version cos it's a long thread, prepared to accept a long grind in L2 for the hopefully (yup probably will be disppointed again) good end game.  believe there has to be some sort of grind for advancement, though just about given up hope anyone will ever do it right so pretty much stopped bitching about it.

Can you get me the contact numbers for Mythic though that would be great. (Um that's a joke)

[Atlas]

EDIT:http://www.mythicentertainment.com/contact/index.html

Heh you added the joke comment after I got the information, forgive me I thought your comments were a constructive attempt to actually facilitate what you wanted, not just random comments.


This link has most of the non support information for contacting Mythic, if you email them in a non we hate you tone with your concerns and requests they can answer most any questions you have.

But Arthur, as I mentioned in my open question define doing it right?

Seriously and sincerely curious. I dont feel I have been rude just stating opnions, I apologize if they have been abrasive, I have refrained from using some of the more colorful dialects I have seen here and I can see as how most people seem bitter my tone may be implied to be as such.

[Arthur_Parker]

I would recommend making one to meet the market demand you say is there, demanding a better one obviously hasnt worked as evidenced by your own comments.

Dunno why this is directed at me, if it is, but I'll go with it.  I'm playing Lineage 2 at the moment but am developing a game in my spare time, it's going to be under the company name Red Brick Dragon Trading.  All Beta testers get the cheap deal of $50 for a Beta CD, you get one t-shirt free with that and a discount on golf clubs.

Moved beyond the "if you are not making a game or intending to you have no right to comment on design issues" sometime ago.  But heck if you reread this thread I wasn't actually suggesting any game design choices just pointing out the ones I like in L2.

Atlas I'm entirely sure any thoughts you have on the subject would be of more value than mine, after all you have leveled 3 characters to 65 in EQ. That would certainly lead me to believe that you have had more time to consider the matters in greater detail.

[daveNYC]

Asking the EQ playerbase whether they prefer hunting vs. questing is like asking visitors to Microsoft.com what OS they use.  If they're visiting the site, then they are more than likely current customers, similarly anyone playing EQ most likely enjoys hunting just fine, as that is what the game is focused on.

A discount on golf clubs you say?

[Atlas]

Define your wants.

Define Non linear advancement, your disagreement with me is well documented, present a viable alternative using examples of game mechanics.

[Morfiend]

Hey AP, isnt this basically the same conversation/argument you and I had about 5 pages back in this same thread?

Nope don't think so, Atlas is being rude in more sorta general way towards everyone, you picked me out especially.  Atlas has a point even though I disagree with it, you didn't appear to have one.

Actually I was just picking out your one line "Exp per Hour", had nothing to do with you.

My point was that Rasix needs to rehash the pong image for this thread.

[Arthur_Parker]

Actually I was just picking out your one line "Exp per Hour", had nothing to do with you.

Referring back to the original post, adding statements that refer to me in bold cause you seem a little slow, also doing the same for statements that exclude me from the hive mind.  

This right here is the fucking problem. For us here who dont like L2, and dont like grinding. We dont want to think of games in terms of "Exp per hour". This makes me sick. What kind of fucked up shit are you people on where you enjoy camping one spot for he best "Exp Per Hour". it fucking boggles the mind.

We want fun. Camping is not fun. Grinding is not fun. Its the mindless shit they give you to keep you going and giving them money.

Ever hear the term "walking wallet" well, that should go hand in hand with "Exp per hour".

Ever hear the term Fuckwit?  That would seem to apply to what us here think of you there who hasn't posted one original thread thought in this whole thread.  Oh wait lets see you make posts agreeing with Haemish and Rasix and turn up again 5 pages later to have another  pop at me saying it's not about me...

[Arthur_Parker]

Define your wants.

Catch up here, stick around and I might if bored enough.

[Xilren's Twin]

What do you want? State in definative games terms and examples of mechanics. I am curious only because any advance of any type will favor those with more time to play. How will you make it so that someone that plays 40 hours a week has the same abilities as someone who plays 8 hours a week? Define non linear advancement.

Speaking for myself, what i want is a mmorpg with a much much much shorter power curve where a newbie to a skill isn't ineffectual compared to a master (say a newbie with minimal training is 50% effective vs a masters 90% with only 10 gradients in between), non-equipment dependent (say a max of +/- 5%), skill based (instead of class) game with a large breath of potential skills (rather than only a few skill which have massive ladders to climb like say eq).  I want advancement to mean less about make your stats go up then accomplishing something in the world (be it minor things like titles and fame to land and property ownership), intestesting tradeskills (that are active, not click and watch progress bar), engaging combat that is slower paced to allow some strategy (again, this means a wide variety of skills and abilities that have counters rather than the rock paper sissors of tank beats ranged support beats mage beats tank; think Magic the gathering type duels with much more limited card pools) in a non static world that can respond to both player actions over time but also can have shard divergence and geogrphic diversity and relevance (i.e. travel times have meaning and areas have sensible natural resources to help foster a trading economy).  Equipment can take examples from SB and diablo for random yet still desirable equipment produced via tradeskill that wans't imbalancing, and does wear out.  I want instanced adventure zones of well written content that allow for more of a true dnd module feel (i.e. you have a set of goals but multiple ways to acheive such) rather than the random blandness of AO missions or SWG's points of interest.  I want characters to be able to create content be it quest creation or even mini zone ownership (i.e. your guild might own a mine that they need to defend from npc invasion or enemy players if pvp is part of the world).  I want a live team that does nothing but dynamically add content beyond spawn uber mobs and kill newbies. I want lots of props and shineys that aren't inherently imbalancing (see UO).  I want a magic system which allows lots of abilties unrelated to combat (instead of just flame bolt 1, flame bolt 2, buff, debuff mez and summon).  In terms of base game systems, what i want is closer to Gurps than D&D, though a shared world of linked NWN module ares and common connectors comes closer to acheiving my wants than most mmorpgs on the market.  Top it off with a robust  guild and communication package decent graphics and an engine that allows for easy and graceful addition of content and change to the gameworld and you're on to something.

And I want a pony.  :-p

Xilren

Xilren

[Atlas]

Xilren ,

Excellent post, unfortunaltely its late but I promise you a response. Excellent to see a post of that nature but I dont think I can help with the pony ;)

See you in the morning.

[Morfiend]

Actually I was just picking out your one line "Exp per Hour", had nothing to do with you.

Referring back to the original post, adding statements that refer to me in bold cause you seem a little slow, also doing the same for statements that exclude me from the hive mind.  

This right here is the fucking problem. For us here who dont like L2, and dont like grinding. We dont want to think of games in terms of "Exp per hour". This makes me sick. What kind of fucked up shit are you people on where you enjoy camping one spot for he best "Exp Per Hour". it fucking boggles the mind.

We want fun. Camping is not fun. Grinding is not fun. Its the mindless shit they give you to keep you going and giving them money.

Ever hear the term "walking wallet" well, that should go hand in hand with "Exp per hour".

Ever hear the term Fuckwit?  That would seem to apply to what us here think of you there who hasn't posted one original thread thought in this whole thread.  Oh wait lets see you make posts agreeing with Haemish and Rasix and turn up again 5 pages later to have another  pop at me saying it's not about me...

Ok, see that where it says you people? that was a generalization. It was the phrase "Exp per hour" that got me going. If you would like to include your self in that group. Fine with me, seems as you belong there.
I stopped posting because we where just going back and forth. Pointless.

Yes I agree with Haemish when he says he doesnt like the current stock of EQ clones, and refuses to play them. Which is more that you can say for your self. You admitted you didnt like exping, but you still pay money to do it.  As I stated earlier, I refuse to pay to waist my time, which I dont have that much of any more. You dont agree. So, there we have it. Sorry if that makes me the idiot for stopping posting on a pointless pong topic.

Go ahead and play your exp per hour, I hope the end game is worth the boring part.

Now pay the man bitch.

Oh, by the way, I see you're being a huge] contributor to this forum also.

[Arthur_Parker]

Go ahead and play your exp per hour, I hope the end game is worth the boring part.

Now pay the man bitch.

Oh, by the way, I see you're being a huge] contributor to this forum also.

Yup will do, it's open beta, that means it's free at the moment.  

Am I your bitch?  Is that something you desire?  Are you aware you are thinking out loud again?

I only ever commented on things that interested me, I'm funny like that, on the other hand, I guess there might be people out there who just post "I agree with what you just said, my aren't you wonderful" to suck up to a mod or writer...  Given that this thread is by far the longest thread on this site you could argue that some people out there and lets face it, increasing "out there" and "not here" are still interested in the games, funny that.

[Mr_PeaCH]

I agree with what you just said.