Mistress contest somehow goes wrong, somehow

[MahrinSkel]

Not to be un-PC, but aren't there various theories that Native Americans either came from Asia via the Bering straight or some other means around 13k years ago? Could they not have been Mongolian among other things?

Sidetrack, but how would that be un-PC? I don't get PC, really, it's such a lot of cobblers.

Some Native American activists get really pissed off over the "two crossings" theories and their variants, because it looks like an early neolithic culture was already established (at least in North America), and then was wiped out by a late neolithic culture from Central Asia.  It undercuts their sense of moral outrage and their frontrunner status in the Oppression Olympics, "We were here first" is much higher moral ground than "We stole it first".

Unfortunately, the science is not their friend.  In addition to remains and archaeological finds that pre-date the period in question, and the oddities in the spread and disappearance of Clovis Points and skeletal structures of remains, mitochondrial and Y chromosome mappings are supporting the "two crossings" theory.  This Wikipedia article on "Kennewick Man" gives a little bit of an overview on the issue:

The biological diversity among ancient skulls in the Americas has further complicated attempts to establish how closely Kennewick Man is related to any modern Native American tribes.[5] Skulls older than 8,000 years old have been found to possess greater physical diversity than do those of modern Native Americans. This range implies that there was a genetic shift in populations about 8,000 years ago. The heterogeneity of these early people shows that genetic drift had already occurred, meaning that the racial type represented by Kennewick Man had been in existence for some considerable period of time.[5]

The discovery of Kennewick Man, along with other ancient skeletons, has furthered scientific debate over the exact origin and history of early Native American people.[5] The prevailing hypothesis holds that a single wave of migration occurred, consisting of hunters and gatherers following large herds of game wandered across the Bering Strait land bridge around 12,000 years ago. Other hypotheses contend that there were numerous waves of migration to the Americas. The apparent diversity of ancient skeletal remains, which may include traits not typically associated with modern Native Americans, has been used as evidence to support these rival hypotheses. Recent (2008) research argues for a single migration.

The "Solutrean Hypothesis", basically that North America was first settled from Europe around 17K years ago, can *really* get them worked up.

--Dave

[apocrypha]

You see that's why I hate political correctness. Anything that gets people upset about attempts to actually explain the world scientifically is clearly bollocks.

The dangers of identity politics becoming more important than class politics ya see 

[stray]

but lack others (epicanthic folds being highest on the list)

Another sidetrack, but are there any native americans with epicanthic folds..? I'm just curious. I know it's a recent phenomenon for many Asians to stress about this (unfortunately).

[Lantyssa]

Because then he'd be calling my great grandma a Hun instead of an Injun?  Dunno.  It confused me, too.

The only people I can think of caring have their professional credibility staked on North American Natives having sprung fully formed from the ground, and I don't think they're taken seriously enough for that to matter.

[Oban]

It is a huge deal for native groups trying to make land claims and when a dig turns up something.

Also, it takes away their moral superiority during government related negotiations.

So for most natives, yes it is a big deal.

Anyway, this is a derail that should be directed to the politics forum if we want to continue.

[Lantyssa]

Thirteen thousand years of living in an unoccupied land still trumps wiping out the existing populations a few hundred years ago.

I realize with the breakdown in logic people will have it's not that clean cut, but as far as I'm concerned their standing is as good as before.  Maybe if I had a personal stake in it I would feel differently, but since I already side strongly with native populations, I dunno.  How many millenia aren't good enough?

[Sky]

I live in an area with a lot of native land claims, and it's always an issue trying to get out of taxes and whatnot.

I have a solution. Ok, we showed up and took your land. You can continue to live on your land claims and not pay taxes. In return, you receive no services and you have to live in fucking longhouses and wear doeskin and go back to killing your neighbors ad nauseum.

Sure, things sucked a few hundred years ago. Things are immeasurably better now, in a way that couldn't be dreamt of by the savages shitting in the woods.

[NowhereMan]

You sir are an upstanding human being with clear and reasoned opinions on matters pertaining to morality and the context thereof. Or something.

Also I'm really not sure what else Native American populations expected. I can't imagine they would seriously claim that they evolved here from some pre-existing species harking back to the beginning of life on earth so obviously at some point they had ancestors that came here from somewhere else. We all fucking came out of Africa (probably) at some point long, long ago, is the fact that they did too really such a shock?

[Oban]

Ok, since we are going down this path...

The issue is that sure the Europeans may have done bad things to you five hundred years ago, but just before they did your tribe wiped out the local inhabitants of the region.  So, your tribe claims the land when an archaeological dig begins, but when the researchers determine that the tribe found is not related to your tribe... well, it means the show is over for people who believe that natives were peaceful earth loving people.

Hint, the tribes that remained were the ones that survived.

Oh, and if you find a Norse burial site under the tribal lands...

[Sky]

Like I said, I live in an area that's really in big contention, and they try to gloss it with heritage and whatnot, but it's all about money. Millions of casino dollars, tax-free. Especially now that the state is going into the shitter, it's gloves-off time. Should be interesting.

And though I sound like a dick in the previous post, I love the local heritage, it's fascinating to live in the birthplace of the non-western democracy (or would it be the true western democracy?), the Iroquois Nation. There is some truly spectacular shit that was going down before it all got fucked up by the palefaces. Also, I'm not a big fan of early white expansion, our ancestors were some real motherfuckers (literally).

But I think that the past is the past and we should be focusing on the present and the future, while remembering the lessons of the past.

[Oban]

But I think that the past is the past and we should be focusing on the present and the future, while remembering the lessons of the past.

So we should send blankets to China?

[stray]

The only fault of my ancestors is that my great grandpa, a danish soldier, made a stop in new orleans, and decided to go awol. That's the beginning of America in my family's past. He never did anything to native americans. Screwed his own country, more like it!

[Sky]

We can't find family records prior to the revolution on my mother's side. We know we had an officer serving under General Knox because he got a land grant in Maine, but not sure what we were up to before that. My dad's family is potato famine immigrants, cops and firemen. So it's possible someone on my mother's side kicked some native ass, given that they were officer material that far back, though again, it's sketchy and he may have risen through the ranks during the war.

[Baldrake]

The issue with contested land claims is not typically related to who invaded whom, but with treaties (allegedly) being broken. This is particularly tricky with native groups who didn't have written language, and relied on oral tradition to record what had been agreed.