Cynojammers and Cap Warfare

[slog]

The most annoying thing to me about this is I really believe jammers need nerfing, but I'm worried CCP will go 'oh hey see what happens without jammers?  too easy to take space!!  got to leave them in.'  :I

There needs to be a middle ground somewhere

[Endie]

Yeah, I'd definitely like to be beating on BoB, but I can tell myself I helped set them up for this fall a long time ago by mass recruiting all their pets and lowering the quality of their fleets.  In the first few days of this invasion things looked dicey for you guys, but holy crap it turned around.  Literally the only time in the last week you haven't had your way in Delve was when -A- called an op to go over there.

The most annoying thing to me about this is I really believe jammers need nerfing, but I'm worried CCP will go 'oh hey see what happens without jammers?  too easy to take space!!  got to leave them in.'  :I

I agree: at first 9-9 made Bob recruit the more poopsocking-inclined members of their failed pets, while Delve made them spend the last year trying to recruit their way into impregnability.  One of the worse members of shitty Providence alliance Aegis Militia, after I found him again in Smash of all people, told me he was joining purely because he knew some other Latvians who were in.  By that point they didn't even pretend to care about killboards.

And do you not think that jammers only need tweaked (25% less HP?) while nerfing titan doomsdays massively?  The problem otherwise is that capitals become even more important relative to subcaps.

[trevorreznik]

I honestly think jammers should only be in Sov4 systems (and get rid of POS immunity there), but I also think POSes shouldn't be what holds sov ( go to a FW type system ).  The entire system needs a massive rework.  I'm actually not opposed to blobbing, as that's a function of good diplomacy which is what MMOs with PvP are all about, but I don't think a lot of people agree on that kind of stuff.

[Goumindong]

The problem with jammers is not that they exist or that they exist in sov 3 areas. The problem is only that they are too hard to take down. Its that you an set them at deathstars to ensure any fight to take them down is a massive painful grind, that if you're active with capitals you an sit on the jammer and make the system conquerable. The lag reduction has made this a lot easier than it was, but really.

Just make it so jammers cannot be anchored at deathstars, reduce their hit points drastically, and then add a reinforcement mechanic(24 hours +/- 6 hours, out of reinforced for at least an hour, once destroyed, no jammers can be onlined for another 24 hours) so that you cannot nuke it too easily.

A FW type system to hold sov is massively retarded.

[trevorreznik]

There's certainly a ton of issues about jammers and poses that suck, like the hitpoint/fitting benefit for faction gear, the sheer HPs on a jammer, all that stuff.  However, I prefer huge nerfs rather than small ones, because CCP doesn't nerf very often.  I also don't think titans should have DDs, carriers shouldn't be able to remotely assign fighters, and remote reps should stacking nerf.  But hey I'm crazy so w/e.

[Goumindong]

I'm gonna split this

[Endie]

FOFF, the 379-strong main fighting force in Exe, with their primary logistics folks and titan pilot, have decided to leave Exe amidst infighting.  Classic failure cascade, as people start to identify with their corps instead of their alliances as those are seen to fail.

edit: also if we get into a jammer discussion, let alone a sov discussion here, Yoru is going to send it to Syndicate (or split it at best).

[Goumindong]

There's certainly a ton of issues about jammers and poses that suck, like the hitpoint/fitting benefit for faction gear, the sheer HPs on a jammer, all that stuff.  However, I prefer huge nerfs rather than small ones, because CCP doesn't nerf very often.  I also don't think titans should have DDs, carriers shouldn't be able to remotely assign fighters, and remote reps should stacking nerf.  But hey I'm crazy so w/e.

If you do it properly, its a huge nerf. Actually removing them however is a bad idea. Cyno jammers(and bridges) have had the positive effect of breaking even into a strategic game on the alliance level. Before them, there was no strategy except "get to next system with station, POS Spam it while reinforcing the system". Its exactly what we did to LV(albeit we added the "twist" of having the alliance live in the target system). But now you have legitimate logistics chains and defenses that you can attack in your way to conquering space.

The problem has been pretty much that it was implemented terribly, cyno jammers require massive fleets to take down, bridges are the same.(so much that its easier to trap the system with a cloaked HIC than it is to actually disrupt logistics). If you remove them, you go back to the bad old days where there was fucking nothing to do unless you were sieging. But if you fix them by making them much easier to attack(and then making them contention points via a reinforcement mechanic), you can have purpose without large fleets while still having a strategic alliance combat.

Titans not having DD's is good, Carriers not being able to assign fighters isn't much of a big deal, but wouldn't change all that much. And you cannot stop remote reps from stacking as they do(since repping is not an attribute).

It would be easier to just not let carriers remote boost without being in triage, and/or turn the capital reps to large reps and then boost the triage strength bonus.

[Sparky]

and remote reps should stacking nerf

That'd make dreads MANDATORY for any large POS that wasn't set up completely shit - raising the bar for 0.0 entry considerably.  No thanks.  RR is already de facto stacking nerfed simply because RR fleets are extremely lag sensitive and with enough alpha useless anyway.  Don't have a problem with your other ideas.

[Yoru]

edit: also if we get into a jammer discussion, let alone a sov discussion here, Yoru is going to send it to Syndicate (or split it at best).

Split. I'm not THAT mean, you guys. 

I also grabbed Goumindong's post from the CSM platform thread.

[eldaec]

Off the top of my head:

Nerf doomsdays, make them hit for a maximum of 80% of each ship's HP.

Then nerf jammers, by providing some easier way to drop them for a brief period (a couple of minutes), at a cost of allowing caps allied to the jammer in for a longer period (an hour?) and reinforcing the jammer for a number of hours; any attacking caps that come in are staying.

[Thrawn]

Or maybe make DDs even more dangerous/difficult to use.  Can't use them for 5 minutes after engaging warp/jumping or can't move for 3 minutes after DDing, stuff like that. 

[Pezzle]

It is not just Titans.  Cap ship proliferation has led us to this sad pass. 

[Fordel]

Dreadnoughts are the new Battleship.


Not really, no... but it isn't THAT far off. I remember when the big news story was when some alliance lost a whole DOZEN dread's in one fight, a couple years ago. The Shock! The Horror! 


Not that any alliance would want to lose a dozen dreads today either, but it was a "Holy Shit!" big deal back then. Now? That's just a welp day.

[Predator Irl]

Or maybe make DDs even more dangerous/difficult to use.  Can't use them for 5 minutes after engaging warp/jumping or can't move for 3 minutes after DDing, stuff like that. 

I agree with this, they shouldn't be able to warp for a certain amount of time after using a DD.

The other thing is, if they make it easier to take out a cyno jammer, then Titans automatically become easier kills. I don't think they should weaken DD's. There wouldn't be a need to if titans were a bit more vulnerable.

[Amarr HM]

How about you can focus the doomsday or some other new weapon on a singular static item and it whacks a huge chunk of HP off it, the resulting Titan is left with zero cap thus not being able to warp til it charges and can't use the beam again til at 99% cap so you can't spam this without mulltiple titans. The idea would be the Titan jumps in takes a massive chunk of HP out of the said item is then rendered useless/vulnerable for a couple of minutes and the rest of the fleet continue working away, so it just shortens the grind without removing the necessity of the dread/sniper fleet.

[Goumindong]

If you have a "single target DD" mechanic like the Death Star, then so long as its recycle time is sufficiently long you do not need to worry about any sort of "not having the titan warp out" since the efficiency of the titan would be so reduced against conventional fleets that it would only be useful as a capital killer. And if its a capital killer then you are taking massive risks bringing it onto the field.

[Murgos]

The Jump Bridge ability of the Titan is already pretty huge all on it's own.

Get rid of the DD altogether and increase the logistics utility of the Titan a bit and I don't think anyone would complain all that much.

[Goumindong]

The Jump Bridge ability of the Titan is already pretty huge all on it's own.

Get rid of the DD altogether and increase the logistics utility of the Titan a bit and I don't think anyone would complain all that much.

If you got rid of DD's altogether and did not add anything else, Titans would still be the single strongest alliance asset that existed. (ED: You just wouldn't see many of the built, since they no longer offered stacking offensive capability)

[Fordel]

Maybe make titans true mobile stations? They already have some limited clone/ship storage ability, no?