AFKing for epics in raids

[Nebu]

Elitist denotes people who have access others don't.

I think you need to look the word up.  You can have an elitist attitude without having different or unique abilities.  Something along the lines of "if you aren't doing it my way, you're doing it wrong."  I see it all the time in academia.  People stuck in one train of thought because they can't see over the side of their little box. 

[Xanthippe]

I keep trying to figure out when leaving a pug because the people in it are people I just don't want to listen to on Vent is ok. I was in a Naxx-25 pug the other day where everyone was geared, playing pretty well if a bit loose, but after a while, I was feeling a Big Meh about the whole experience. Half the people on vent were drunk, loud, sharing every obnoxious opinion they had about politics, talking about their pathetic sex lives, talking about their genitalia. Nothing that was so awful that I just said, "see ya", but it basically gave me a headache after a while. There were also two unbelievable loot whores, though thankfully the raid leader kept telling them to cool it, plus some guy who felt obligated to post Recount after every fight (even though he was about tenth or eleventh in DPS).

Disconnect from vent, claim problems with your headset, inform the people on the raid that you are no longer on vent because your headset isn't working properly, if you need to be told something, please use /raid.

The worst thing about vent is the number of people who think their lives are interesting to strangers.

[Nevermore]

Voice chat is the devil.  It reminds me of when I used to work in retail.  I don't play online games to be reminded of the hell that was retail.

[kildorn]

Voice chat is the devil.  It reminds me of when I used to work in retail.  I don't play online games to be reminded of the hell that was retail.

I found out last week that my laptop has a mic on it somewhere (we hadn't used TS since I'd started using it to game)

I now feel I should stop watching movies and chatting on the phone during raids <3

[bhodi]

Voice chat is the devil.  It reminds me of when I used to work in retail.  I don't play online games to be reminded of the hell that was retail.

This game would be boring and dull without voice. If I wanted just a video game, I'd play single player.

Some may hate the people they raid with, but I like the ones I raid with. Of course, I'd NEVER pug w/ voice.

[Hindenburg]

Some may hate the people they raid with, but I like the ones I raid with. Of course, I'd NEVER pug w/ voice.

Not that bad, actually. Most people are shy in Live 5man Chat.

[Sheepherder]

I think you need to look the word up.  You can have an elitist attitude without having different or unique abilities.  Something along the lines of "if you aren't doing it my way, you're doing it wrong."  I see it all the time in academia.  People stuck in one train of thought because they can't see over the side of their little box.

So then the people who persist in being utterly fucking stupid in face of all reason, because they think they're better than me, are also elitist?  Which leads back to... "You are doing it wrong, go look at Elitist Jerks, they have good specs listed for your class."

[Rasix]

Voice chat is the devil.  It reminds me of when I used to work in retail.  I don't play online games to be reminded of the hell that was retail.

I've claimed a non-working mic for longer than the past year.  On KT, "don't type out of if you get frost blasted, call it out".  "Sorry, no mic".  Guess what, didn't die to frost blast.  I could buy a new mic or try getting mine working.  I can never seem to get it loud enough (dumb lapel mic) for anyone to hear me,  and I don't feel like spending money on something I don't really want to do.  Plus, my wife is a light sleeper when it comes to noise and the office is right next to our bedroom. 

I don't mind the people I raid with, I just don't really want to talk to them. And I really don't even want to listen to a pug or another guild.

[Fordel]

I hate when people go "I'll do that!" or "I need a cleanse!" over voice, since 90% of the raid sounds exactly the same thanks to the drive through window effect.


Say who you are or just die quietly in a corner.

[Nevermore]

If only there was some method of communication that would indicate who was asking for the cleanse every time.

[Paelos]

The only reason I would check a person's gear is to see if they have a lot of it and aren't putting out relatively similar dps. For example, if a rogue is putting out 1500 dps with 3/5 Valor and full epics, I'm going to probably pull him aside and see WTF he's doing. That's not "elitism" that's simply trying to figure out the best gauge of ability. If he had blues and greens, I wouldn't even approach him about it. I'd just assume it's a gear issue and see if he improves as he gears.

If they wanted your opinion, they could easily give you permission to check their gear in the system I'm suggesting.  I think that allowing anyone and everyone to review your character just opens the door to elitist behavior. 

I'm not saying that you (or anyone else) is a gaming elitist, but most that are are in denial about it. 

Just run around Dalaran naked then. I'm frankly puzzled why anybody would give a crap about people looking at you. Maybe the spec thing, but I mean shit you can look at what people are wearing when you walk down the street.

[JWIV]

If only there was some method of communication that would indicate who was asking for the cleanse every time.

I can't even imagine doing it in a raid.  I was five manning yesterday and someone was all, I need a cleanse!  and I was all like, WHO ARE YOU MYSTERY VOICE?

[Ingmar]

For better or for worse there are encounters in the game that don't go well without voice coordination, unless you set up a crapload of macros and spam them. Blizzard seems to have designed it this way on purpose.

[Hindenburg]

You guys are aware that there are mods that display the chap's nick in game when he talks on vent/ts, right?

There you go.

[bhodi]

Sorry, you shouldn't need voice for anything that mundane. If you do, you're doing it wrong. Cleansers should NOTICE when someone needs a cleanse. That's their job. Spend 5 minutes and install an addon if you need a giant 'cleanse now' button. (you should, anyway).

DBM goes nuts when someone gets iceblocked. DBM goes nuts when sarth's flame wall appears. DBM catches every single debuff on every single raid. That's it's job. All this shit is known. Using the correct addon is faster, less annoying, and more effective than some random voice shouting at you. You shouldn't NEED to direct people like they were children. Voice should be saved for unexpected shit - adds, emergency tank assignments, things of that nature.

"Heals on the tank" - NO SHIT. I have a giant bar flashing at me that is already telling me this, my spells are already casting and if I waited until your voice queue the tank would have been dead two bosses ago. You don't have to repeat what I'm already doing like a semi-retarded mind-reading parrot on a 3 second delay because you know what? I've got that shit covered. I had it covered before you even noticed there was a problem.

[Lantyssa]

No thanks to voice chat.  It has it's good and bad points, but when it comes down to it I feel uncomfortable using it and would much rather type at people.  It is easier to hold a conversation with me because I process verbal and written communication quite differently.

[Ingmar]

I don't mind too much people not talking on vent, as long as they have voice chat open to listen to, as long as at least the tanks can talk for calling stuff like 4H switches or OH GOD FLAME WREATH DONT MOVE. We don't really use it as social hour like some guilds seem to. I have had some really awful experiences with PUG vent, like the one time this dude who sounded kind of like Larry the Cable Guy doing a bad impression of Hellen Keller started calling some other dude in the chat a 'coon'. 

So yeah, fully understandable why some people hate it.

[Merusk]

Meh, Vent doesn't bother me. I've been in Vent for PUGs with 4 teenage boys and Vent for 40 man raids.  It's all dependent on who you're running with. Like Bohdi, I like the folks I raid with so Vent is a nice expansion and interaction. (Off raid, Raid time is srs bzns and none of us chat other than mid-trash.)  Then again I've also found myself getting more social over the last 4 years than I was in the past, enjoy people watching and don't give a flying fuck about what Johnny Internet is saying.  If he gets too obnoxious I can always mute him.

[Khaldun]

My own guild is great to be on voice with, but that's because we're all professionals in the same field, and most of us know each other pretty well, and have roughly similar temperments. We join up with another guild that we like where most people are similiarly grown-up, etc.

It's just PUGs where I have no idea what's coming in the voice chat--sometimes very quiet, focused on what we're doing, other times it's like being stuck at the worst social event I've ever been to in my whole life. And the problem is that there's a few things in Naxx-25 where it is genuinely helpful to have everyone on voice, I think, so I'm not unsympathetic to people who would prefer a pug to be on voice.

Another thing I'm getting sick of is bullshit faux-elitist "I'm checking gear" (I know, we're talking about this in other threads) when I know already that I'm more geared than the asshole saying he's checking my gear, and I also know that I know the fights better than he does, because I've pugged with him before. Or in another case, the assholes who were spamming LFG for *two hours* yesterday looking for a DPS who fit their really narrowly specific criteria to do EoE-10 with--at some point, guys, just grab someone and go, you know? If you have to pug it, you're already obviously not in a l33t guild anyway, so just give it a shot. There's a lot of this kind of stuff going on in Wrath, I think. I quit a 5-man heroic Drak pug the other day because some dps-warrior twat was running Recount and complained that I was "only" doing 2.4k with my rogue at the top of the list when he was fourth on the dps list with 1.3k, above only the healer and below the bear tank. In his opinion, I should have been doing 2.7k "at least"--somehow a lot of players have gotten weird ideas about skill and gear and quality and entitlement in an expansion that is actually incredibly forgiving to undergeared players, where you can make it through most things pretty well. Most people are having fun with that, which is why I'm even less tolerant of people who aren't.

[skolor]

Its not elitist to say "This spec is better, switch to it" if there is math to back it up (And as long as you're right, there is math to back it up). If you take a look at Elitist Jerks/Wowwiki/other general reference, the specs on there are backed up with some crazy ass spreadsheeting. That's not being elitist, its saying "Everyone needs to be pulling their own weight here. You can do go spend 50g and change you talents to pull more. Go do it." Its only slightly more demanding than saying "Its great that you have an offset to tank heroics with. Tank gear goes to the current tanks first, if they don't want it, it can go to your offset."

As far as vent goes, we're probably pretty bad about it. My GF and I have and one of the Guild Leader and his Wife since high school, so once we getting on Vent we usually socialize quite a bit. We tend to get on Vent a little before the raid, and stay on after though, so most of the guild isn't there for it. During the raid we'll chat a little, and often tend to drink a little more than we should (One night we started singing "I'm a lumberjack" during Heigan since we got bored - it was a 23 minute fight). Once a boss starts though, its all about the encounter. Most of the chatter is about "Remember the XXX is coming up" or something similar. Once the RL dies, he tends to call out cleanses, mainly so that I can pick up the ones I can too (I play a Tankadin, so I'm usually not paying attention to my cleanse bar). We also call out directions, and probably call a little too much out over all, but as long as it breaks the tunnel vision its worth it.

[Lantyssa]

It is elitist because maybe, just maybe, I picked this other talent because I want it, not because it's "mathematically" better.

[Hindenburg]

This argument. It is redundant.

If that's your reason for being a unique snowflake, you're an elitist.

[Soulflame]

Not being the best spec is fine if you've got people who can pull your weight, or so long as people don't mind dragging you through content you're not smart enough to spec for.  It's not fine if your guild is trying to progress through something difficult (sarth+n comes to mind) and you decide you want sparkles on your shadowbolts or some damnfool thing that reduces the damage you do.

[Ingmar]

Raiding comes down to teamwork, at its core. If you want to be bleeding-edge-hardcore-successful, you have to put the needs of the team ahead of your own, which means crap like respeccing to teh exact thing they need for an exact fight via hearthstone and getting resummoned, etc., etc., etc. That kind of play doesn't have to be elitist; it just needs everyone to be on board with the plan.

Of course you can also raid without doing that sort of thing, like we do, without specifying how people have to spec or whatever, but to do that you have to accept a certain amount of struggling with encounters, etc., like we do.

Elitism only comes into it, IMO, when it comes to how you treat people who don't play the same way you do. Not taking someone on a Zul'Aman bear run because they can't put out the required DPS for the team to complete the run in the required timeframe is not elitist. Not taking someone and telling them they're a scrub who sucks and should go back to UBRS is.

[Selby]

Not being the best spec is fine if you've got people who can pull your weight...

My spec is based on what works most efficiently for me when I get to solo (since solo'ing is 90% of what I do).  When people tell me to put points in a certain place because EJ says so or because it is a rarely required ability that gives me 0.5% more chance or doing something only when I am doing a certain aspect of a raid, that becomes more of a "meh, who cares."  My spec is pretty good for most of my characters, so I rarely get complaints like I did back when I was an arcane\fire mage in the MC\BWL raiding days.  My thoughts are if not spec'ing a certain talent is going to make the difference between success and guaranteed absolute failure, it's a poorly designed encounter that I likely won't be interested in doing on a regular basis.  If my guild members are gearing up just like I am and are on the ball, chances are that one or two talent points not being "EJ Approved" optimal isn't going to hurt.  If it does, we aren't ready as a group anyway.

This all goes out the window if I decide to do something stupid on my druid like spec half resto, half balance, and then try and DPS as a cat in a 10-man or heroic.  People who do such foolish things (like spam Arcane Missiles over and over and over and over) get ridden to "see the error of their ways" and if they refuse to change, they just don't get invited to go all of the time since we know it's going to be wipe city on a regular basis with them essentially not contributing.  Nothing personal, I just don't care to drag someone along who is basically going to be spitting on a forest fire (and then gets mad at the rest of the group for the wipe).

[Hindenburg]

chances are that one or two talent points not being "EJ Approved" optimal isn't going to hurt.  If it does, we aren't ready as a group anyway.

Gotta do it times 25.

[Selby]

Gotta do it times 25.

Like I said, if it is *that* bad of an encounter that not being on the A++ game that night and not having all of your talents optimized to the last 0.1% mandatory is going to make it a waste of time, it's a sucky encounter of the cockblocking variety.  I'm talking about 1 or 2 talents here or there, not completely fucking up your tree to make pretty pictures.  Those people who can't decide what they want and just randomly spec useless talents or ones that don't synchronize well (like a resto\balance druid trying to be feral) are usually pretty obvious and rarely care about seeing the end-game content anyways.  Just be nice and don't /gkick them or anything.

[Chimpy]

The funny thing is, the god damn spreadsheet elitists always go nuts about how this or that does OMG the most, and they calculate exactly how many times something with a proc should proc etc etc.

It is all based 100% around a person having 0 latency, no framelag, never moving an inch, never taking damage, nothing EVER going wrong for the shit to work. They also calculate with maximum possible buffs, using X on every cooldown, never ever ever being in the GCD etc.

It is part of why I am glad I no longer raid. Too many people rely 100% on what they read on EJ or whatever and do not use their own experiences or observations to make decisions. The raid leader in the guild I was in who never played a hunter for 2 seconds in his life actually said on vent during a Malygos raid that "hunters should be much higher since they are so overpowered". This when it was BM that was doing nuts damage, on a fight where 60% of the fight the pet is not even attacking and hunters have a terrible time getting to minimum range because everyone has to be "in the sparks" when your melee is giving the boss a blowjob instead of being at max melee range. Fucking ginormous dragon hit boxes. But you could not explain how unlike him on his fucking shadow priest that could be standing inside the dragon's body and still do damage because he would never listen to anything but what he reads on forums.

[Hindenburg]

It is all based 100% around a person having 0 latency, no framelag, never moving an inch, never taking damage, nothing EVER going wrong for the shit to work. They also calculate with maximum possible buffs, using X on every cooldown, never ever ever being in the GCD etc.

You haven't read EJ enough.

not having all of your talents optimized to the last 0.1% mandatory is going to make it a waste of time,

You said .5 the first time. 25 members rocking that way, raid output is down 12.5%. That's a sizeable ammount.

[Fordel]

Most EJ models do allow you set your lag and your own 'human reaction' time these days.

[Nevermore]

I try to find a balance between what's most efficient, what's most fun and the concept I have for the character.  Yes, my characters are actually characters and I won't stray too far from my concept.  That said, I do like my characters to be the best they can be within that framework (which is generally pretty broad).

As far as I'm concerned, as long as a character reaches the threshold of being able to perform her function well, then I don't worry about squeezing every last little bit of performance out of her if it means giving up something else that's fun.  If spec A is tip top efficiency but kind of a pain in the ass to play while spec B is also very good but much more fun, then as long as B is still passes the threshold needed to fill it's role well that's the one I'll pick every time, even if A is a few percentage points 'better'.

[Lantyssa]

What Nevermore said.

If that's your reason for being a unique snowflake, you're an elitist.

Wait.  If someone doesn't want to play with me because I didn't choose to use the exact spec they want me to have, I'm being elitist?  Wha?

As long as they're not idiots, I'll give anyone a chance.  That's quite the opposite of being elitist.

[bhodi]

In all cases of poor performance, short of your #1 or #2 raiding guild on the server, it is the person behind the keyboard, not the spec. One or two talent points is not going to make or break a raid. Not having all 213 items is not going to make or break a raid.

Frankly, the bar is set pretty damned low right now so much so that if pugs can do it, you should be able to as well. Anyone who starts bitching at someone should be complaining about their personal performance, not their spec, assuming they are 'close' to one of the common ones and have at least semi-decent gear enough for the instance.

[Paelos]

Ok this argument is stupid. Some are going to crack out the spreadsheets and the math and tell you in certain conditions how certain things within the system will work on various fights. At that point they will pick specs that work the best for those fights and declare them the best. Within the system that they want to play, they are right. They have the math, they know the system, and they spend god-awful-countless-pointless hours defining this crap to get a minor edge.

That's what they are. There isn't one word you can throw out there to encompass that. There are thousands that might sum it up nicely, but saying "Elitist" (which you are currently having a debate about the semantics of, again) is stupid. Stop arguing over words, and accept the fact that there is no RIGHT way to play the goddamn game. There is no objective beyond what you intend.

[Hindenburg]

Wait.  If someone doesn't want to play with me because I didn't choose to use the exact spec they want me to have, I'm being elitist?  Wha?

You hold the belief that you can sacrifice the group in favour of the self. That's elitism. Wanting to exclude yourself from the company of gents like that is also elitism.

Or you could just hear the coin drop and realize

but saying "Elitist" (which you are currently having a debate about the semantics of, again) is stupid

what others already have.