Blizzards New MMO

[calapine]

Hmm... maybe the level system is a left over from old conventions. It's good for a single player type of game that's meant to played until the main story arc is over, but using a limited scale when faced with infinite playtime?
Even in single player Fallout 3 people complained because the levelcap was set too low...It seems obvious this is no good mechanic to port into an open-ended game.

UO and EVE may have some hints already: Gear breaks and needs to be replaced, exponentially increasing skill costs, war that eats up resources...

Different point: In a game that will run for years and constantly be balanced and always changing, skill points that can be put into talents and relocated are far superior to "I rolled a warrior and now I am always going to be a warrior"

*/end rant; gets  glass of milk*

[Ashamanchill]

I think WOW should implement Zelda like dungeons for solo players at the level cap.

Officially seconded. 

Also, Blizzard must have some sort of formula for what makes a 'heroic' dungeon at level 80, i.e. the difference in hit points and mob damage of say the original Nexus run, and it's heroic counterpart.  I don't see what they cant just add that to all their dungeons, from SFk, to Maraudon, right through to Burning Crusade content.  Have the bosses dish out badges of heroism, and there you go.  I mean, I'm not even insisting they convert them all at once, start one at a time and do it piecemeal.  i mean, this is hardly a novel suggestion.  Of course, it would be a problem for the level appropriate suckers toons running the dungeon on pvp servers, with level 80 asshats standing around outside of them, but that's not a big enough reason to hold them back.

[Venkman]

What is the motivation for soloers wanting an endgame? Is it that they want to continue growing their character beyond the cap? Is it because they want a reason to stay in the same game their casual acquaintences are staying in to raid?

The reality is that levels 1-79 are the tutorial and then the game ends.

I also think it's funny how often this is said. Maybe it applied in EQ1 because you needed to group frequently there. But how can anyone say soloing from 1-79 in WoW "teaches" anything about raiding? Everyone here can answer that question but I'm asking it anyway. You show up at the cap with a number of expectations from the rate of reward to the time commitment needed to achieve. What you learned about both of these things in no way applies to raiding.

Once again: raiding is just a very different system than the other parts of the world.

[Malakili]

But how can anyone say soloing from 1-79 in WoW "teaches" anything about raiding?

You don't learn much about raiding no, but I think that you get an idea about your character's abilities, talents and so forth.  It probably prepares you for small group content more than raids (especially now), since small group content is relatively trivial.  Granted, i think one of the biggest problems, at least theoretically, is threat/aggro, these mechanics are, as far as I know, never explicitly explained.

Anyway, its fairly obvious when you run into a an e-bayed character, so the 1-79 experience is teaching people SOMETHING.

[Nebu]

Leveling to cap in WoW teaches you little to nothing about group mechanics.  If it's meant as a player tutorial, it's a terrible tutorial.  The solo pve is so easy, you need do little more than walk up to a mob and hit a couple of buttons repeatedly.  The game doesn't even force solo players to use all or even most of their group abilities.  When I got to cap and began grouping with some of the f13 folks, I had to use knowledge from past games to help me along.  WoW really doesn't promote situations where you NEED to use all your abilities.  I think this is one of the games shortcomings.  You're given access to abilities and then have to go to the forums to understand how to use them to their potential.  They should have some quests in game that provide players with this experience and information. 

Besides, the combat isn't what makes WoW a well-crafted game.  The combat is really pretty bland. 

[tkinnun0]

What is the motivation for soloers wanting an endgame? Is it that they want to continue growing their character beyond the cap?

Yes.

Edit: and I don't mean "growing" in the sense of piling on more fluff that's just for looks. I'm talking stats that affect gameplay going up.

[Venkman]

Exactly. And that's why the game ends at the cap. Because unless you've got a company with nigh unlimited resources to throw at solo faction grinds, or can rely on that player to join PUG PvP like a BG, the game is over. It's just that no company has a marketing team dumb enough to come right out and tell the player that 

[Hindenburg]

WoW really doesn't promote situations where you NEED to use all your abilities.

They've tried that with the hunter and Priest 60 epic weapon quest. That's pretty much it.

[Draegan]

if you guys dont enjoy the tutorial why are you bitching about what comes after?  you're probally playing the wrong game then. 

wow is diku.  diku is old.  get used to it or play something like spellborn.

[Inactiviste]

Exactly. And that's why the game ends at the cap. Because unless you've got a company with nigh unlimited resources to throw at solo faction grinds, or can rely on that player to join PUG PvP like a BG, the game is over. It's just that no company has a marketing team dumb enough to come right out and tell the player that 

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications. They're not staying just for the gameplay at that point, they are bound to have social ties. And they want to keep these ties, but not to the point of committing their life to the game.

I guess what I'm asking for is a game that lets me play without too much unnecessary time commitment at the level cap. Hey, even finding an instance group can be painful at times, and we're talking about the most successful online game ever.

Besides, I'm perfectly aware that content is finite, but I'm pretty sure it could be better designed from the get go to allow replayability. There are lots of possibilities. For instance, try to make a more dynamic game : let the hardcore shape the politics (isn't it how Eve works ?), but then leave a space for the casuals to watch and participate when they feel like it... At least the people farming PVP / raid instances could be useful to the playerbase as a whole, instead of pawning everyone else during PVP and sporting really glittery pieces of armor in front of the bank. I know a lot of things like that were tried these past few years, and that didn't always work, but well, factor in the Blizzard polish or something.  

[pxib]

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications.

I believe that's exactly what Blizzard intended the daily quests and their cash/rep grind to be.

[Malakili]

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications.

I believe that's exactly what Blizzard intended the daily quests and their cash/rep grind to be.

This is basically exactly what I was going to say.  Northrend is crawling with solo daily quests that can be used to earn cash, rep, etc.  Yes, its repeatable, so its not like the endless 1-79 content, but then again, raiding and dungeons  in general are very repetitive too. 

[Inactiviste]

Daily quests are fine, but there aren't enough of them, and they only take place on a few selected zones. Maybe I'd like a reason to revisit Duskwood or even Desolace, instead of spending my evenings in Ice Crown. And I'm not talking about leveling an alt. The endgame could use more than a few zone.

Of course that would be problematic with the way servers are populated : these zones would be empty. Then again, I'm using Wow as a reference but we're rambling about a next gen MMO.

[Venkman]

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications.

I believe that's exactly what Blizzard intended the daily quests and their cash/rep grind to be.

This.

Inactiviste, think of it this way: what is raiding but the exact same thing over and over. That has been the middle for a long enough time now that the "endgame" is synonymous with repeating the same thing endlessly, and long the way accruing some progress towards periodic goals. The big difference is the of those rewards.

Content is expensive, as you note. It's also based on a very specific formula of development. What you talk about is what many have talked about over the years, some cross-section between procedural content, procedural missions, and rewards to match. The best examples are the old UO News Posts which would send you to an area in <variable> direction for <variable> distance to <save|collect> <variable> from <variable>, culminating in something like "Head northwest for a bit to save the Princess from the Orcs". This was later revisited in AO with dynamically generated levels and goals and then again in SWG with mission terminals.

The problem is that it doesn't feel authentic nor finite. The underlying formula becomes obvious so quickly players will end up gaming it for the XP, loot or other rewards if the mission terminal is the easiest way to get those things. It in no way creates compelling stories that players care about because it's too predictable in how it builds the story.

The next step would be to create an entire ecosystem where every moving part is connected to every other moving part and all things can be affected by players. They can barely get that right in a game with one player though, much less thousands 

Doesn't mean the goal isn't worth pursuing of course. Just means we ain't there yet by a long shot.

[Tarami]

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications.

I believe that's exactly what Blizzard intended the daily quests and their cash/rep grind to be.

And of course, create retention by making people log on every single day for a short but habit-inducing run in the squirrel wheel.

Sorry, I just had to point out that dailies aren't really about giving solo players "something to do." It's about giving solo players angst because they aren't doing something today.

[Inactiviste]

Maybe the problem with Blizzard is that they want the content they release to be "perfect". Of course, with the level of success they get, you can't blame them... But from time to time, I'd rather try a "not that great" rehash of an older instance (Say Deadmines with meaner mobs) than a "perfectly tuned" (for people with level appropriate gear, said level being outdated in a few months) instance for the tenth time... Just throw in a few designers and let them try, how much would that cost ?

Of course it wouldn't be perfect, but I'm pretty sure that with right rewards it could entertain us "casuals" between expansions... A lot of developers reuse their assets in a clever way : think FF X-2 (whatever you think of the game itself, it's a rather interesting way to reinvent the places they built for FF X), the way the Megaten series reuses mobs that were designed for SMT 3...

Edit : I hereby predict "sustainable development" to be a MMO buzzword, uh, sometime in the future. 

[Tuncal]

I think when people want a solo endgame, they don't really ask for a single player game with no end. They wouldn't play a MMO if that was the case. Mostly, they want to continue playing the way they did during the leveling phase which is a mix of solo and group activity, with regular gratifications.

I believe that's exactly what Blizzard intended the daily quests and their cash/rep grind to be.

They may have intended dailies as a solution, it wasn't a very successful one though. The grind was too thinly disguised and the gratifications were not appealing at all to those who had access to group content. Admittedly, WoW's focus is not what Inactiviste describes and even Blizzard's resources are not infinite, so I don't blame them. It would be nice if their next MMO had the resources that went into the creation of say, Ulduar, used to craft content that doesn't need a preformed group.

[Venkman]

I'd rather try a "not that great" rehash of an older instance (Say Deadmines with meaner mobs) than a "perfectly tuned" (for people with level appropriate gear, said level being outdated in a few months) instance for the tenth time...

Waste of resources, because "not that great" gets quickly ignored. At any given time, there's "not that great" in some form in WoW. And entire other MMOs are, well, the reason why WoW is so popular 

The point though is that the dailies are grindy but built to be soloable with immediate, short and longer-term rewards. Just like raids without the group, and rewards at a different pace. And this is important to realize because the "endgame" of a diku-inspired MMO is exactly this of repeatable content. Whether it's dumping players into a daily, BG, Arena or Raid, it's all repetition with reward payouts that slow down.

It's not ideal, but to do anything else would require the rethink I mentioned above. Short of that it's the same old formula of static content rollout and tuning how often the player needs to see the same of it. And so far it has worked well enough for newer companies to enter the space with the same old formula and still make good money at it.

So what, exactly, is "wrong" here?

[pxib]

They may have intended dailies as a solution, it wasn't a very successful one though. The grind was too thinly disguised and the gratifications were not appealing at all to those who had access to group content. Admittedly, WoW's focus is not what Inactiviste describes and even Blizzard's resources are not infinite, so I don't blame them. It would be nice if their next MMO had the resources that went into the creation of say, Ulduar, used to craft content that doesn't need a preformed group.

Once everybody has reached top level and has the best gear, the ones that don't immediately start an alt just stop playing. Blizzard released the Deathknight as a "hero class", a powerful soloer that starts at level 55 ,precisely so that it would make a quick alt once a player's main was finished at 80. In terms of crafting content that doesn't need a pre-formed group: From what everyone says, THAT WAS WRATH OF THE LICH KING. Until Ulduar people were running PUGs through basic instances, heroic instances, and both 10 and 25 man versions of Naxx. Apparently tanking is as easy as DPSing now, and that takes most of the brainpower pressure off healers as well.

The response? Practically the entire playerbase finished every bit of the expansion's content in record time and demanded more. So Blizzard cranked up the difficulty on Ulduar and released the half-ass patch job of dailies that is the Argent Tournament. They cannot produce quality content fast enough to keep everyone entertained. In other words:

...dailies aren't really about giving solo players "something to do." [They're] about giving solo players angst because they aren't doing something today.

...because otherwise they'll ignore the game entirely and decide to let it go next time their subscription comes up for renewal.

I imagine one of Blizzard's central focuses on the next game is implementing strong tools and a modular graphic framework that will allow them to produce content more quickly.

[Tuncal]

Yes but content was decimated through even before WotLK - unless there was an intentional cockblock. That will happen no matter what, and I agree with you 100% they need to push out content faster. The difference is this time it's not just the 0.01% of the playerbase who gets to see the arch villain. I'd say that's a good thing, and I'd love to see the game they could craft if they set their full attention on this approach from the start, not just trying to splice EQ's genes.

[Fabricated]

I personally hope whatever the backend of their new game is, that it's well-coded and tougher to fuck up. Either the people taking care of WoW are complete retards or their backend/client is a fucking mess. The weirdest shit happens with their patches. Right now various abilities flat out quit working in some instances (notably naxx, which I got to tank without Shockwave last time thank to these weird bugs. Supposedly Shadow Priests and some other classes have random skills stop working too), entering instances flags everyone for PVP, mobs will start sidestepping the tank or moving/twitching oddly for no real reason (even when you have them planted in place), etc. etc.

There have been minor patches where completely unrelated skills and spells bug out and do totally different things. Weird shit like a specific -rank- of paladin blessing summoning a Draenei mount or other completely random things.

[Inactiviste]

There have been minor patches where completely unrelated skills and spells bug out and do totally different things. Weird shit like a specific -rank- of paladin blessing summoning a Draenei mount or other completely random things.

Emergent gameplay ! 

[Ratman_tf]

No. Fuck all that shit. The whole raiding/diku dynamic needs to go have a seat.

Fucking wah. I may not like that raid/diku has devoured all gameplay in WoW like a hungry shark, but I'm not willing to say "Throw that baby out with the bathwater!". I've raided and liked it and *gaspzors* had fun! So there! I'm also on a break from WoW, playing Eve because I realize that doing Anything for months on end is boring, and you need to take a break and do other things. (I also picked up a starter guitar set. See! I'm not a total catpiss man!  )

[Kageru]

I don't think it's a matter of solo vs group as much as a matter of accessibility. Raids are incredibly unfriendly to most players because they need heavy logistics and specific class distribution, with all the headaches that ensures. Whereas content that can be approached in a more impromptu manner (by giving one the option of joining alone into a group activity without needed a preformed group) should be much more attractive to the majority of players. (snip)

This is actually precisely what blizzard tried to do with their meeting stones (better known as "retard rocks"). The idea was you click on it to register and it constructs a group for you. Problem is the player-base strongly rejected the algorithms used to match players, the lack of control over who joins and the fact it treated players as interchangeable. Trying to do a heroic and get some casual soloist in green gear? Blizzards algorithms didn't have a problem with it, but the players sure did. End result being no one used them apart from those who couldn't get groups any other way.

As to the other discussions I like WoW dailies. If I'm only on for a half hour I can still do something that progresses my character. I'm in a raiding guild and I still do dailies and can work towards things I want. That said, if all you want is a single player RPG why the heck are you paying a MMO subscription?

I'm also playing CoX and I do enjoy the scaling instances and the fact groups are more freeform and the XP return encourages people to fill groups. All of these do place limits on balancing the challenge of the encounter though.

[DLRiley]

At any given time you are paying for 10% of the game.

[Xanthippe]

At any given time you are paying for 10% of the game.

Right, but when the new content for my 10% of the game sucks, then I'm not going to playing it.  I'm going to be complaining about it.

[Tuncal]

This is actually precisely what blizzard tried to do with their meeting stones (better known as "retard rocks"). The idea was you click on it to register and it constructs a group for you. Problem is the player-base strongly rejected the algorithms used to match players, the lack of control over who joins and the fact it treated players as interchangeable. Trying to do a heroic and get some casual soloist in green gear? Blizzards algorithms didn't have a problem with it, but the players sure did. End result being no one used them apart from those who couldn't get groups any other way.

As to the other discussions I like WoW dailies. If I'm only on for a half hour I can still do something that progresses my character. I'm in a raiding guild and I still do dailies and can work towards things I want. That said, if all you want is a single player RPG why the heck are you paying a MMO subscription?

I'm also playing CoX and I do enjoy the scaling instances and the fact groups are more freeform and the XP return encourages people to fill groups. All of these do place limits on balancing the challenge of the encounter though.

Actually the meeting stones utterly failed because they were implemented in a very retarded way. The system had two huge flaws: 1) it required you to actually go and click the stone outside the dungeon just to enter the group "queue" - nobody did that, spamming LFG was way less time consuming; and 2) the algorithms completely disregarded specs and gear - picking feral druids for healers and fury warriors for tanks. The player base rejected the system because it was stupid, not because it matched them with a green geared player. The proof of this being that after subsequent patches where meeting stones being changed to basic summoning stones, and the LFG system reworked to be more flexible, most players now use the system quite happily.

Anyway,  it's not a single player RPG that I want, there are plenty of those around. I rather want an MMO that doesn't force me into a rigid schedule amd a rigid preform group if I want to progress past a certain point. WotLK got a bit better, but WoW started as a "Raid or DIE" game and it's extremely hard to move it off those tracks. Allow me to give an example of the type of behavior that I'd like to see: joining battlegrounds. Ofcourse organized groups perform better and that's how it should be, but the possibility of participating in said content just by hitting the Join button is there. And that explains why BGs are vastly more popular than 5 man arenas, the latter simply take so much effort to organize that virtually nobody bothers.

Now, is it possible to take that ease of use and accessibility and apply it to a PVE regular gratification system without running into the balancing issues that you mention? I'd say yes, but it would require to be built as the core of the game experience, and more resources spent on designing and balancing the system from the start, not just throwing out a painfully formulaic mission generator.

[DLRiley]

At any given time you are paying for 10% of the game.

Right, but when the new content for my 10% of the game sucks, then I'm not going to playing it.  I'm going to be complaining about it.

I think your missing the point. I pay for your game. I pay for 99.99% of it, at the very least I paid for 60% because I can respect somethings in game that I just won't do, but other people will do. If I'm paying for 10% of the game  I question why I keep paying, like smart consumers do. In the typical mmo players head new content is simply there to replace the odd shit. Like buying new furniture. Which is cute, but leads to credit card debit or in the players case wanting more content then any sane studio can be expected to make it.

[Phred]

Now, is it possible to take that ease of use and accessibility and apply it to a PVE regular gratification system without running into the balancing issues that you mention? I'd say yes, but it would require to be built as the core of the game experience, and more resources spent on designing and balancing the system from the start, not just throwing out a painfully formulaic mission generator.

Instead you will get  painfully formulaic boss fights, as they'd have to be dumbed down if you had an open group system where any moron capable of wiping the group can join. Hell they'd probably do it just to greif you. Look at the difference between the new Vault boss and the old one. On my server the previous one was pug'd daily. Now, the success rate seems to be about one group in five where you can be assured of someone who can change targets when required.

[Murgos]

Well, to be fair, you actually only pay for > .00002% of the game you are playing.

Technically, everyone else is subsidizing your subscription costs.

[Trouble]

At any given time you are paying for 10% of the game.

Right, but when the new content for my 10% of the game sucks, then I'm not going to playing it.  I'm going to be complaining about it.

I think your missing the point. I pay for your game. I pay for 99.99% of it, at the very least I paid for 60% because I can respect somethings in game that I just won't do, but other people will do. If I'm paying for 10% of the game  I question why I keep paying, like smart consumers do. In the typical mmo players head new content is simply there to replace the odd shit. Like buying new furniture. Which is cute, but leads to credit card debit or in the players case wanting more content then any sane studio can be expected to make it.

If the game has more than 10x the amount of stuff you could feasibly do it would seem to me that you're getting a good deal on your money. You can't look at it like you look at a pizza and say "well if I pay for the pizza I should get the whole pizza". You're paying for access to a service that includes many features you will never utilize. You're paying a reasonable fee to access said service even if you only utilize a small portion of it. Rather flipside, the people who utilize MORE of the service are simply getting a better return on their investment.

To quote a line from Fight Club, you decide your level of involvement. Blizzard says "here's the service, here's the fee, have at it". Anything beyond that is up to you.

[WindupAtheist]

Fucking wah. I may not like that raid/diku has devoured all gameplay in WoW like a hungry shark, but I'm not willing to say "Throw that baby out with the bathwater!". I've raided and liked it and *gaspzors* had fun! So there! I'm also on a break from WoW, playing Eve because I realize that doing Anything for months on end is boring, and you need to take a break and do other things. (I also picked up a starter guitar set. See! I'm not a total catpiss man!  )

I don't really care what anyone in particular enjoys. As a system of game design, diku is done. Exhausted. Tapped out. There's Blizzard and their success which no one else will ever duplicate, and beyond that the subscription MMO industry has been nothing but a giant bloodbath ever since, with all the usual suspects burning millions and millions of dollars pitching one derivative diku flop after another. The futile hope of stealing away WoW players has kept developers shoveling money into what is, outside of WoW, a nearly dead genre.

[Nebu]

I don't really care what anyone in particular enjoys. As a system of game design, diku is done. Exhausted. Tapped out. There's Blizzard and their success which no one else will ever duplicate, and beyond that the subscription MMO industry has been nothing but a giant bloodbath ever since, with all the usual suspects burning millions and millions of dollars pitching one derivative diku flop after another. The futile hope of stealing away WoW players has kept developers shoveling money into what is, outside of WoW, a nearly dead genre.

While I agree with you 100%, I think you're speaking into a void.  The box sales of AoC and WAR will provide enough incentive to keep diku development going for years to come. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, you can't really say "Its dead", when you, yourself are not a normal user. History shows this model has many, many more years in it.

[Nebu]

Yeah, you can't really say "Its dead", when you, yourself are not a normal user. History shows this model has many, many more years in it.

I think he can.  As a creative medium, it is dead.  It has been thoroughly flogged to death and beyond.  From a financial standpoint, the cart still has wheels.