God help me. Third time's the charm?

[Big Gulp]

Eve seems to be like that abusive ex girlfriend that tried to stab me.  Sure, she looks good, but the bitch is crazy and high maintenance.

Okay, I'm redownloading the client now.  I'm going to try to get past the stupid fucking time-based advancement system and the gouge your eyes out UI.  Can anyone else give me any tips on actually enjoying the game?  It's so tempting, and theoretically it's something I think I'd enjoy, but the reality of the thing always breaks my spirit.

Please, someone tell how to have fun in Eve.

[Sparky]

Enjoying Eve in 4 easy steps:

1.  Run the tutorial (it's long as shit but worth the effort)
2.  Join a 0.0 alliance (I recommend hooking up with the f13 crew)
3.  Accept cash monies and free ships (that shit doesn't even add up to walking around money for them so don't feel a burden)
4.  PVP

Avoid missions, mining and all that isk grinding shit.  Just live off the generosity of others for your noob life.  If you're not hooked by the time it's time to move out of free shit then Eve probably isn't for you.

[Big Gulp]

Okay, but we go back to my initial bitch:  the stupid time-based skill advancement.  Doesn't that essentially make me useless for pretty much anything?  0.0 sec space in a frigate is like going to prison weighing 90 pounds with a purty mouth.

I know I shouldn't even bother, because all I'm going to do is bitch that I can't use a joystick in the game.

[Sparky]

Hell no.  T2 ships with all the trimmings are nice and some gangs flying that shit exclusively but f13's alliance welcome and use everyone down to the random nub in a tackling frig very effectively.  It's part of their ethos.

[Quinton]

Okay, but we go back to my initial bitch:  the stupid time-based skill advancement.  Doesn't that essentially make me useless for pretty much anything?  0.0 sec space in a frigate is like going to prison weighing 90 pounds with a purty mouth.

All by yourself, yeah, flying a frigate with minimal skills in 0.0 is not all that useful.  As part of a gang -- as a scout or a tackler, frigates are extremely valuable and very welcome.  Since the whole point of the fun stuff in EVE is the multiplayer PVP and Epic Spaaace Battels and Suchlike, this works out well.

[Grand Design]

Sparky is correct.  If you want some wacky advice, train to fly a covert operations ship and learn how to go anywhere you want, at any time.  Its a lot of fun to be able to run a gate camp, and a useful skill to have.

Okay, but we go back to my initial bitch:  the stupid time-based skill advancement.  Doesn't that essentially make me useless for pretty much anything?  0.0 sec space in a frigate is like going to prison weighing 90 pounds with a purty mouth.

Hang on to that soap, fresh meat - you might need it later.  The time based advancement that you dislike is negated by the fact that those early skills are always useful.  Once you can fly a frigate with nice fittings, you never actually stop flying frigates, whether they are the cheap T1 variety or the more advanced versions of the same ships.  In 0.0, if you aren't in a gang, your best bet is to be in a frigate since it is small and fast.  There is a misconception that you need X number of skillpoints to really be effective, and that number is actually much lower than most people assume.  With very few hours of training, you can assist a gang in a real way - which is how to correctly play EvE, as Quinton points out.

But can EvE be fun?  In small doses after considerable effort.  But those doses are the super concentrated ambrosia of nerdrage induced tears that make all of the effort worthwhile.

[Big Gulp]

Sparky is correct.  If you want some wacky advice, train to fly a covert operations ship and learn how to go anywhere you want, at any time.  Its a lot of fun to be able to run a gate camp, and a useful skill to have.

Okay, but we go back to my initial bitch:  the stupid time-based skill advancement.  Doesn't that essentially make me useless for pretty much anything?  0.0 sec space in a frigate is like going to prison weighing 90 pounds with a purty mouth.

Hang on to that soap, fresh meat - you might need it later.  The time based advancement that you dislike is negated by the fact that those early skills are always useful.  Once you can fly a frigate with nice fittings, you never actually stop flying frigates, whether they are the cheap T1 variety or the more advanced versions of the same ships.  In 0.0, if you aren't in a gang, your best bet is to be in a frigate since it is small and fast.  There is a misconception that you need X number of skillpoints to really be effective, and that number is actually much lower than most people assume.  With very few hours of training, you can assist a gang in a real way - which is how to correctly play EvE, as Quinton points out.

But can EvE be fun?  In small doses after considerable effort.  But those doses are the super concentrated ambrosia of nerdrage induced tears that make all of the effort worthwhile.

Okay.  Just so you guys know where I'm at, I logged in Pope Lenny again after his long retirement, and it's telling me that I belong to the Viziam corporation.  Is that NPC, or was that the old f13 corp?  For that matter, how do I log onto the f13 chat channel?  None of this shit is intuitive.  CCP are the lords of the non-intuitive UI design.  I can already tell that this is going to be a clusterfuck.

ETA:  Did I mention that the UI sucks???  Fucking RAGE.  I'm already pissed that I bought this thing on Steam instead of signing up for another trial.  Goddamn, CCP sucks balls.

[Nerf]

Click the channels and mailing lists icon, join channel "f13" and we'll take ya from there.  Don't worry about low skills, not too long ago we had someone who 3 days into EvE was the sole tackler on a carrier.  His 700K investment was the only thing between a ship costing well over 1 billion living or dying. (It died  )

[Endie]

I'm pretty sure that Slog was also involved in the titan kill almost as soon as he signed up, though I think he foolishly and naively forgot to loose off a round for killmail-tagging.

[FatuousTwat]

ECM doesn't get you on kills does it?

[Endie]

ECM doesn't get you on kills does it?

It surely does.  Every blackops killmail on something bigger than a frigate usually has five falcons jamming it into next week. 

[Predator Irl]

ECM doesn't get you on kills does it?

It surely does.  Every blackops killmail on something bigger than a frigate usually has five falcons jamming it into next week. 

Including pods 

To answer the original question about enjoying eve and being useful early on, being in frigs are actually great fun. You'd do well to max out all skills in relation to frigs but everyone has their own preference to what they like flying, so try find that ship type and focus on it. Personally, I like frigs & cruisers (T1 & T2) but not anything bigger because I prefer fast & nimble, others like slow heavy hitting ships.

One thing I would say is try training each shiptype for your race as far as battleship to a low level to see which suits you, then specialise. Don't be a "jack of all trades".

[Murgos]

ETA:  Did I mention that the UI sucks???  Fucking RAGE.  I'm already pissed that I bought this thing on Steam instead of signing up for another trial.  Goddamn, CCP sucks balls.

I just re-upped as well.  Gulp, dude, forget the UI, forget the training, the point is that even as I type this some noob in a frigate has a point in a billion isk carrier and goon ships are fleeting up to nail it.

This carrier was part of a fleet that was shooting one of our foothold POS's in Delve.  It looks like, as I typed this, the carrier got away but by the skin of his teeth, and the rest of the enemy fleet warped off without taking down the POS.  Partly due to the actions of this one guy in a frigate.

You know all that talk about real open pvp and real consequences and not having level disparity that makes 1 billion noobs worthless against a lvl 80?  Well, it just played out in front of my eyes over 10 minutes.

[Simond]

Okay, but we go back to my initial bitch:  the stupid time-based skill advancement.  Doesn't that essentially make me useless for pretty much anything?  0.0 sec space in a frigate is like going to prison weighing 90 pounds with a purty mouth.

Also: Frigate pilot here - http://killboard.goonfleet.com/player/Diivil

[Slayerik]

Pope Lenny will be receiving the standard 10 mil donation. Put some time into Eve, it is a very deep game and can be a lot of fun. Find your niche.

[Big Gulp]

Pope Lenny will be receiving the standard 10 mil donation. Put some time into Eve, it is a very deep game and can be a lot of fun. Find your niche.

Okay, here are some problems.

A) I have very little patience and tend to lash out violently when I have no idea what to do and the game offers zero help.

B) There is no hand holding in this game.  I buy skills, head over to the school to pick them up, and since I can't yet learn them can't drag the book to my cargo hold.  So I'm basically fucked unless I want to head back to that station to learn the skill when I'm finally ready to do so.

C) Do I need to go into the incredible boredom of 12 system jumps just to pick up a frequency crystal?  Yay, I get a pretty screen saver that lasts for 30 minutes.

D) There is no there there.  Everything is space vacuum, and that's all you're going to get.

E) Point and click doesn't do much to convey being a gallavanting space pirate.  In fact, NOTHING IN THIS GAME conveys being a gallavanting space pirate.

Why do I not learn from my previous mistakes?

ETA:  Much love to Murgos, because he really was a trooper with me this morning.  BUT FUCK THIS GAME.  Never again.  It's not worth wading through the shittiest UI, the poorest n00b experience in the world, and the stupid fucking game decisions to get to something that might potentially be fun.  I have games that are fun right now.

[Jamiko]

I finally resubbed last night as well, been gone just long enough to not remember much. Spent the evening training up for salvaging because I wanted to know what it is and how it works. I still have a covert-ops ship as well so I'll probably spend some time flying that around to shake off the cobwebs. I'd love a chance at some pew pew some day. My days in ASCN were non-violent and boring.

[Jayce]

I recently had a thought about this that is relevant.

EVE is a very cerebral game.  By that I mean a lot of the fun involves you supplying some imagination.  There is nothing that can supply the image of a gallivanting space pirate that isn't contrived except your imagination.  So it's both a good and a bad point that nothing is this game is very contrived.

Another case in point:  what Goonswarm is up to right now.  Is it fun, minute to minute, moving all our assets across the universe?  Hell no.  However, the cerebral story, that takes imagination to realize, is that we're throwing away everything we have worked for for years for the chance to strike deep into the heart of our most hated enemy.  That is fucking epic and I want to be a part of it.

The price is that you don't get your Skinner Box pellets every few minutes. Some people enjoy that, some people don't.  It really is a love it or hate it sort of situation.


On another note, it's really a shame about you, Gulp, because Pope Lenny is an awesome name 

[Endie]

Jayce is right.  We're doing some stuff right now that is stressful and risky and even boring at times (unless you are involved in the social elements at the same time, talking to F13ers and/or fleet members).

But we just packed everything we could into our longboats, made landfall in an overwhelmingly hostile land, and burned our boats on the beach.  There is no going back: our old space is as good as gone already.  If we don't win in Delve - and we shouldn't, considering that our enemies have years of supplies to fall back on, caches of tens of thousands of ships, huge reserves of money and logistics in-place - then we are homeless.  But we're doing it anyway, and dammit we might just pull it off.

And though I have a sneaking feeling we might succeed, I'm also strangely interested to see what we do next if we don't!

[Thrawn]

And though I have a sneaking feeling we might succeed, I'm also strangely interested to see what we do next if we don't!

I know what I'll be doing and it rhymes with "Suicide Ganking".

The skill training system is actually one thing I've always really like about EvE.  I never feel like "If I don't login tonight I'm loosing valuable level grinding time."

[Murgos]

I buy skills, head over to the school to pick them up, and since I can't yet learn them can't drag the book to my cargo hold.  So I'm basically fucked unless I want to head back to that station to learn the skill when I'm finally ready to do so.

If you bought them they are in your item bay.  You can move them to your cargo hold and fly around with them until later.  I'm guessing you just clicked wrong.

[Grand Design]

ETA:  Much love to Murgos, because he really was a trooper with me this morning.  BUT FUCK THIS GAME.  Never again.  It's not worth wading through the shittiest UI, the poorest n00b experience in the world, and the stupid fucking game decisions to get to something that might potentially be fun.  I have games that are fun right now.

EvE is definitely an acquired taste.  If you aren't already seething at the thought of logging in, you should at least give it an hour a night for a couple of weeks to see if it grows on you.  Running missions is a good low risk way to learn the ropes, and people in F13 will give you ships or ISK as fast as you can get them blown up. 

The best thing to do is to ask every question, even if it seems like it should have an obvious answer.  Its not you, trust us, its the UI.

[Viin]

Murgos may have straightened you out, but I wanna make sure the other folks thinking of signing up understand what is going on here.

Okay, here are some problems.

A) I have very little patience and tend to lash out violently when I have no idea what to do and the game offers zero help.

B) There is no hand holding in this game.  I buy skills, head over to the school to pick them up, and since I can't yet learn them can't drag the book to my cargo hold.  So I'm basically fucked unless I want to head back to that station to learn the skill when I'm finally ready to do so.

This is the initial learning curve (remember that creative graph?) you have to get over. Once you are over this, you will do fine - but it does take patience and the willingness to ask questions! Best thing to do is hop on TS/Vent and just shout questions at people when you are trying to figure out what you are doing.

Also, if you are starting with an old character without much SP - DON'T. Make a new char and run through the tutorial, transfer your assets (isk) if you really had any later.

C) Do I need to go into the incredible boredom of 12 system jumps just to pick up a frequency crystal?  Yay, I get a pretty screen saver that lasts for 30 minutes.

I'm willing to bet there is one closer, you may just be reading the market window wrong *or* aren't looking for equivalent crystals that are closer. Again, good thing to talk to someone about so you understand how it works before getting frustrated over.

D) There is no there there.  Everything is space vacuum, and that's all you're going to get.

Well duh, space *is* a vacuum.    Think of the items within the system as 'points of interest'. Other than those POIs, there really is just vacuum. But the systems are far from empty (look at your planet list, moon list, asteroid list, stations, stargates, etc). They just aren't real close together, which actually creates a very good environment for tactics and strategy (which you will see if you PVP) - but isn't a problem for the casual player because it's really not very hard to get to any of those things (right click menu in space is your friend).

E) Point and click doesn't do much to convey being a gallavanting space pirate.  In fact, NOTHING IN THIS GAME conveys being a gallavanting space pirate.

You are thinking about the game wrong. This game isn't Sid Meyer's Pirates!, this game is Space Chess 5000. You *can* be a galavanting space pirate, but you first have to understand what that means in this game and how that profession plies it's trade. If you could just pick your class ('Ohh I want to be a space pirate!') and you got an eye patch and an old rusty ship, are you really a pirate or just someone who dresses up like one?

Why do I not learn from my previous mistakes?

ETA:  Much love to Murgos, because he really was a trooper with me this morning.  BUT FUCK THIS GAME.  Never again.  It's not worth wading through the shittiest UI, the poorest n00b experience in the world, and the stupid fucking game decisions to get to something that might potentially be fun.  I have games that are fun right now.

We all gripe about the UI - it can use work, no debate there. But, we've all learned how to exploit it's strengths and avoid it's weaknesses .. there is a *small* learning curve to get over the UI, but it's really not that overwhelming if you ask the (seemingly dumb) questions.

For anyone new to the game, please *please* find someone who will be your mentor and guide you through the first week or so. You should be in constant communication (preferably voice chat) so you can talk about how things work, why, and what to do to exploit those mechanics. Most folks would love to chat about how things work, as it gives them a chance to show their prowess.

[Big Gulp]

I'm willing to bet there is one closer, you may just be reading the market window wrong *or* aren't looking for equivalent crystals that are closer. Again, good thing to talk to someone about so you understand how it works before getting frustrated over.

Okay, exaggerating.  But you have to admit that 10 system jumps still aren't uncommon.  And it's dull as dogshit.

Well duh, space *is* a vacuum.    Think of the items within the system as 'points of interest'.

It would be easier to think of them as "points of interest" if they were actually interesting.  They're not.  One space station is the same as another.  They couldn't even be assed to throw some space debris around them every now and then, or slap one in an asteroid field.  No, space stations are a name on a list that I click "dock" because I need to pick up a n00b gatling laser.

You are thinking about the game wrong. This game isn't Sid Meyer's Pirates!

Truer words were never spoken.  Sid Meier's Pirates! has the virtue of actually being entertaining.

We all gripe about the UI - it can use work, no debate there. But, we've all learned how to exploit it's strengths and avoid it's weaknesses .. there is a *small* learning curve to get over the UI, but it's really not that overwhelming if you ask the (seemingly dumb) questions.

Why would I do this?  Why would I choose to reward obvious developer incompetence?  They've had how many years now to do something with that interface and they've done not one fucking iota of improvement.  This is like arguing with a Linux douchebag.  "Yeah, everything is non-intuitive, and it's a pain in the ass to do very basic computer tasks, but I have so much more control!"

[Quinton]

They've had how many years now to do something with that interface and they've done not one fucking iota of improvement. 

This, I would say, is bullshit.  The UI actually *has* improved, and some of the upcoming stuff in the next patch looks pretty sweet.  That said, they certainly could stand to make it much better.  However, it gets the job done, I fly my spaceships around with other people flying their spaceships and blow up enemy spaceships, and so on.

That said, I'd never suggest anyone play if they find the whole experience completely intolerable ^^

[schild]

They've had how many years now to do something with that interface and they've done not one fucking iota of improvement.

This, I would say, is bullshit.  The UI actually *has* improved

I suppose if you're gonna polish shit, you need to be happy with the end result of polished shit.

[Phildo]

Someone please find and post a screenshot of the original launch GUI with that awful map at the bottom corner!  I can't find one.

[Endie]

Dude, you said yourself that you tend to get angry and over-react at frustrations, and this does look like an example of that.  You can always just stop re-subbing and save on aneurysms!

Okay, exaggerating.  But you have to admit that 10 system jumps still aren't uncommon.  And it's dull as dogshit.

You have a choice as a designer. I don't want to sound like a Vanguard fan, but if you want large-scale, strategic warfare that makes zerg rushes impractical and where logistics come into play then travel has to have a cost in terms of time.  If anything, many (especially pirates) argue that Eve has gone too far in making travel easy through jump bridges and warp-to-zero.

Well duh, space *is* a vacuum.    Think of the items within the system as 'points of interest'.

It would be easier to think of them as "points of interest" if they were actually interesting.  They're not.  One space station is the same as another.  They couldn't even be assed to throw some space debris around them every now and then, or slap one in an asteroid field.  No, space stations are a name on a list that I click "dock" because I need to pick up a n00b gatling laser.

You're playing the wrong version of Eve.  Goonfleet analysises retention rates very carefully, partly to help us grow and partly because the point of Goonfleet is to let Goons have fun in imaginary space.  The biggest factor in determining whether people stay is whether they come straight to 0.0 and jump into PvP gangs.  Of course, that is a jumble of causes and effects: those people get tied into social bonds more quickly but are clearly more prone to "joining in" in the first place, for instance.  But it seems to matter more than which squad they join, for instance, and the cultural norms and activity levels of each squad are massively different.

Truer words were never spoken.  Sid Meier's Pirates! has the virtue of actually being entertaining.

Don't be dumb.  Just because you don't find it entertaining doesn't mean it doesn't catch and hold the interest of others.  There is a quality there that hooks and ensnares others for years, and which you don't get.  That's it.

Why would I do this?  Why would I choose to reward obvious developer incompetence?  They've had how many years now to do something with that interface and they've done not one fucking iota of improvement.
[/quote]

Ho hum.  This is a dumb argument, being based on a load of old bollocks.  Say what you like about Eve.  Say, if it takes your fancy, that you don't like the huge range of changes that have been made to the UI, to the tutorials, to the accessibility of 0.0 space and the like.  Say that you find the market and contract system too complex, that you find the PvP too risk-laden to get involved, that you prefer to grind for skills, that you don't like MMOs where single-player playstyles are unrewarding and so on.  But simply saying "wah wah nothing has changed" is so patently false as to be unsupportable.

That said, you're just trolling now, and I don't know why I wasted the effort in feeding you.  It's not like there's going to be any chance in persuading someone who titled his big comeback thread "Third time's the charm?"  Given your self-confessed impatience, Eve maybe, just maybe, ain't your game. 

[Big Gulp]

Ho hum.  This is a dumb argument, being based on a load of old bollocks.  Say what you like about Eve.  Say, if it takes your fancy, that you don't like the huge range of changes that have been made to the UI, to the tutorials, to the accessibility of 0.0 space and the like. 

Hey, shithead!  This is a forum where we bitch about games.  That's how it started, and that's how it's stayed.  You don't like it when someone calls your precious neckbeard eden out for what it is, but that's too goddamned bad.  You've spent how long now spamming the MMO boards recruiting n00bs, so I'd think you could handle a n00b telling you why your game of choice is a heaping pile.

And your "retention studies" don't mean a lot when you've got a complete freeze on recruiting.  So even if I wanted to go to 0.0 space and join a pvp corp I can't.

You know what?  I paid my $15, so fuck you.  I'm going to keep playing a bit every day and will dutifully update with a new bitch.

[Big Gulp]

You know what?  I paid my $15, so fuck you.  I'm going to keep playing a bit every day and will dutifully update with a new bitch.

Actually, I lied.  I just logged back in, tried ratting (again) and the extreme boredom of clicking "orbit" on an enemy and watching lights flash was enough to break my spirit.  This game fucking sucks.

[Murgos]

No.  Your just trolling.  You trolled me yesterday in game and you're trolling everyone here now.

You are SO angry that it's a parody.  Everything sets you off.  The vast majority of the stuff I observed was just being you unfamiliar with the mechanics of the game that took me 20 seconds, at most, of explaining to get passed and yet your in a monitor bashing rage.

Every fucking thing.

I got to travel 3 minutes (10 jumps) to get to where I bought something at?  Waaaaggh!

I can't figure out how to drag and drop from the station hanger to my ship hanger?  Waaaaghh!

I don't know what skills to train!   Waaagh!

Why is solar system less comprehensive than region in the market window?  Waaaagh!

Gulp, seriously.  THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU.

[Big Gulp]

Gulp, seriously.  THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU.

Very, very true.  What I'm trying to figure out is how this game is for anyone.  Vanguard is more deserving of your money and time than this game is.  Fuck, Horizons is more worthy.

Everything about EVE is either boring, or confusing, or both.  It's like you guys are playing with a different client than the one I am, because the one I'm playing with is horrid.

[Goumindong]

Gulp, seriously.  THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU.

Very, very true.  What I'm trying to figure out is how this game is for anyone.  Vanguard is more deserving of your money and time than this game is.  Fuck, Horizons is more worthy.

Everything about EVE is either boring, or confusing, or both.  It's like you guys are playing with a different client than the one I am, because the one I'm playing with is horrid.

pebcak

edit: I figure i should be more useful.

You see, there are many types of players in Eve. But everyone who stays is not here for some faggoty carnival experience where the developers lay content in front of you and then you sit on it and spin. We are here because we like taking initiative and making things happen.

For me, i like the game because i can play infrequently, and still push peoples shit in when I do. Like right now, i have to move a ship across empire(or die hilariously trying). And then i get to go ruin the plans of a bunch of other people who like doing what I do, but are just worse at it.

Eve is very much a sandbox game. The sandbox includes very simple tools.

You can

A: Build spaceships
B: Shoot spaceships

Everything else is just a way to either

A: Build spaceships better
B: Shoot spaceships better
C: Stop other people from building spaceships, so you can shoot their spaceships better\

Its really really simple. If you don't want to shoot spaceships or build spaceships, or you're unwilling to grow some balls and make either of those things happen, then you're playing the wrong game.

[Big Gulp]

Its really really simple. If you don't want to shoot spaceships or build spaceships, or you're unwilling to grow some balls and make either of those things happen, then you're playing the wrong game.

Oh, I'm fully behind shooting spaceships.  What I'm not fully behind is selecting a target on a list, then selecting "Orbit 1000m" and watching lights go back and forth.

In what fucked up bizarro world is that seen as entertaining?

[Grand Design]

It's like you guys are playing with a different client than the one I am, because the one I'm playing with is horrid.

There's the problem.  You need to download the new EvE client.  They listened to user feedback and streamlined the UI quite a bit.  The confusion has been reduced with a new one button, one click interface.