Young, in love and confused.

[Riggswolfe]

Geez y'all are jaded and cynical.

In this case it's from experience. What he's writing about literally happened to me in my early 20s. I mean, change the names, and a few minor details and I lived this.

[stray]

I have more reason to be jaded than anyone (and I definitely will not get into it), and I'm still not that jaded. A little numb maybe though. 

[Lantyssa]

I'm not saying things can't progress that way (I was one of the ones to tell him to back off, which worked), however it's not unsalvagable either.  He just needs to learn from his mistakes and ours, and they might get through this together.  Maybe not.

Saying it's doooooomed though strikes me as premature, especially since they've already had a talk and people were willing to admit to character flaws from the begining.  Any couple which is able to talk, able to admit mistakes, able to self-analyze, and is willing to re-evalute as needed already has a leg up on most relationships, even the long term ones.

[Engels]

I think you're missing the main point, Lantyssa; he should not WANT to have anything long-term to do with a 20 year old. Period. Its a developmentally untennable situation. She needs ~2-3 years of bopping about before any man 'bears his soul' to her.

This guilt-trip he's laying on her about her being selfish or spoiled is misguided at best, but seems nasty and cruel to HER.

[schild]

Saying it's doooooomed though strikes me as premature,

That would be becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause


you're a woman.

[stray]

That's silly. I know women who would disagree with her too. Everyone's different.

[Yoru]

I have more reason to be jaded than anyone (and I definitely will not get into it), and I'm still not that jaded. A little numb maybe though. 

Was that the time you learned firsthand about novocaine not being an acceptable substitute for Everglide?

[slog]

As a veteran of the kind of relationship you're talking about: She's already "lost" to you. It's not obvious yet because she's basically dithering about it but she's moving on emotionally. Frankly, when you opened yourself to her, and started thinking about long term stuff, you scared her. The more you try to pull her in, the more she's going to push you away. You might be able to salvage this by taking a big step back but I doubt it. Sorry, but I was there several times in my 20s and I recognize the symptoms.

This is 100% spot on.  Been there, done this as well. 

These are the woman that you write off and then call you out of the blue two years later. 

Just to add,

10 years from now you will look back and say to yourself "JESUS FUCK WHY COULDN'T HAVE JUST KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT AND FUCKED HER SILLY FOR LIKE 3 YEARS?"

[Broughden]

As a veteran of the kind of relationship you're talking about: She's already "lost" to you. It's not obvious yet because she's basically dithering about it but she's moving on emotionally. Frankly, when you opened yourself to her, and started thinking about long term stuff, you scared her. The more you try to pull her in, the more she's going to push you away. You might be able to salvage this by taking a big step back but I doubt it. Sorry, but I was there several times in my 20s and I recognize the symptoms.

This is 100% spot on.  Been there, done this as well. 

These are the woman that you write off and then call you out of the blue two years later. 

Just to add,

10 years from now you will look back and say to yourself "JESUS FUCK WHY COULDN'T HAVE JUST KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT AND FUCKED HER SILLY FOR LIKE 3 YEARS?"

Yep.

[apocrypha]

Just to add,

10 years from now you will look back and say to yourself "JESUS FUCK WHY COULDN'T HAVE JUST KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT AND FUCKED HER SILLY FOR LIKE 3 YEARS?"

Haha very true. It's always better to regret things you DID rather than things you DIDN'T do. Better not to regret them at all, but hey, shit happens.

[DraconianOne]

Photek - the only advice I can give you is to ignore everything* in this thread and do what you feel is best.

It may work out - in which case, well done. (TBH, her age or relationship experience isn't an issue - you're both relatively young and you can both learn about life together and that may well be a fantastic experience. Some of the happiest couples I know have known each other since they were kids and never had a relationship with anyone else. It can work.)

It may not work - in which case you can learn from your experience.

It may work out and then you meet someone else who you want to be with and then you'll be back here asking us what to do again - in which case you'll still learn from your experience.

The only person who can tell you what to do is you. You may get it right first time. You may fuck up more than once and you may get fucked up more than once.

Learn from it.



*Which kind of puts you in a paradox because if you ignore everything then you'll have to ignore this too which means you'll need to pay attention to everything and... never mind.

[Riggswolfe]

I'm not saying things can't progress that way (I was one of the ones to tell him to back off, which worked), however it's not unsalvagable either.  He just needs to learn from his mistakes and ours, and they might get through this together.  Maybe not.

Saying it's doooooomed though strikes me as premature, especially since they've already had a talk and people were willing to admit to character flaws from the begining.  Any couple which is able to talk, able to admit mistakes, able to self-analyze, and is willing to re-evalute as needed already has a leg up on most relationships, even the long term ones.

We'll see. At that age, this talking stuff works. For about a month. Then the cycle begins again. Yeah, I guess I am cynical about his chances, but like I said, it's from being there. I went through a stage immediately after where I convinced myself women only like assholes. Due to my wonderful wife I can now admit I was wrong. Women mostly like assholes.

[ShenMolo]

Great thread!

I'll toss in my 2 cents. FWIW, im 37, divorced (9 years, was final yesterday!  )

1. Decide what you want from a relationship.
Heck, write it down! It sounds like you guys had fun when you first met, but once it got serious she freaked. Think about how you like to treat a partner and how you like to be treated.

2. Write this in shoe polish on your bathroom mirror:
I CANNOT CHANGE OTHER PEOPLE, I CAN ONLY CHANGE MYSELF
You know what you want from her, but she isn't giving it. This is not because of you, it's because of her. Pat yourself on the back. You bang hot chicks, then have the emotional maturity to develop a deeper relationship. She doesn't. Start looking for another hot chick.

3. Think hard about whether she is capable of giving you the relationship you want.
It sounds like you have been a standup guy the whole time. Many women like men to open up to them, and if you like opening up that's great. But this one is freaking out. She is not gonna change, at least not quickly. She needs to mature perhaps, but she may always be a drama queen.

4. Be nice, friendly, a shoulder to cry on, but start distancing yourself from her.
You don't have to be unkind to break up. Just tell her you want a deeper relationship and are going to find one. Tell her you will always care about her and want to be friends. If it ends gracefully, because you show maturity and compassion for her, you never know what might happen. She *might* change, but probably not. You will always have a relationship with her as an Ex, try to make it a good one. Maybe down the line when she grows up a little you two can re-connect. You will have a good history with her that can pay dividends down the road.

[Signe]

This thread seems to have brought out the talking assholes. I don't even think some of you are kidding around.  Geez.  I'm rather surprised at apocrypha for agreeing with slog's tired old bollocks.  The others who agreed?  Not surprised at all.

[MrHat]

Fuck and spend money.

The rest will fall into line.

[chargerrich]

I am certain that most of us over 30, know exactly what you should do and wish we would have listened to others when we were 24 ish. The solution is easy, but expecting you to be able to accomplish this is asking a lot. I know how I was at 24.

At 20 and with her lack of experience in relationships I can tell you that what you are doing now (telling her how much you care for her, lavishing her with attention, et al daily) is actually hurting the situation. You do not think you are smothering her, because you WISH she would do this to you, but you are and it will only hurt the situation.

Keep three things in mind:

1. You being a little more distant and giving her some space WILL speed up HER resolution that she either does or does not want to be in a relationship with you. This is hard for you because you do not want to take any chance that she will not choose to be with you. However what you are doing will only hurt your chances. You have to give her time to miss you and think about you.

2. Even the nicest and sweetest women are effected by the "want what you cant have" syndrome. Some more than others, but its effect will help you determine her true feelings. Feelings that even she is probably not sure of.

3. You have to realize and be prepared for the possibility that she, in the end, will not want to be with you. You cannot control this as much as you would like to and your efforts can actually serve to push her farther away. There are lots of internal and external factors that include family, friends (who at 20 play a bigger part for a women than you know), the possibility of an attraction to someone else or just the possiblity that she does not want to be in a relationship.

The bottom line is that you have already made it clear that you care for and want to be with her. She has all the info on you to make a judgement. The fact that she is asking for time should be your clue. Give it to her if you really want to know how she feels. You are not giving her a chance to see how she feels without you. Your best approach would be to reiterate that you care for her in a calm and confident manner and then let her know that you are there if and when she wants to talk but not get overly sappy or emotional. Women do not want that at the start of a relationship.

They want confidence.

She will know in a few weeks how she really feels and if she wants to be with you, she will let you know. In the end, realize that the chances of a 24 and 20 year old growing old together and finding true love are not great, in fact you will probably lament feeling the way you do 6-12 months after you stop seeing her if things do not work out.

Trust when I say this... most if not all of us have had an almost IDENTICAL situation (or two) and chances are 99% that she is not the one :)

[Ironwood]

You know, if I was this lassie and I read this thread, I'd castrate you Photek.

And then Dump You.

[apocrypha]

This thread seems to have brought out the talking assholes. I don't even think some of you are kidding around.  Geez.  I'm rather surprised at apocrypha for agreeing with slog's tired old bollocks.  The others who agreed?  Not surprised at all.

*Shrug*. I'm male, I'm approaching 40, I know a lot of people in their late teens & early 20's who all have sex lives 10 times more interesting than mine now, let alone when I was that age. I'm feeling the sting of missed opportunities.

I got into "serious" relationships far too early in life and all it got me was a crap sex life and a messy divorce. I just don't like seeing other people making the same mistakes I made  

[MrHat]

You know, if I was this lassie and I read this thread, I'd castrate you Photek.
And then Dump You.

Is there an option where you castrate someone and stay with them?

[tazelbain]

Kids these days are use to recounting the intimate details of their life on the internet.

[Righ]

Met a few philosophy students from there at a joint conference last year.

I went to a joint conference once. It was all a rouse, there was no weed there. There certainly would be at a philosophy one.

[Ironwood]

Ruse ?

[Righ]

Indeed.

[Merusk]

No, a rouse.  Righ was using a fancy word for flushing from cover.  The whole thing was a sting and he spent weeks in the pokey afterwards.  Tell us all the story!

[Lantyssa]

Is there an option where you castrate someone and stay with them?

Sure.  It's called a vasectomy.

[slog]

This thread seems to have brought out the talking assholes. I don't even think some of you are kidding around.  Geez.  I'm rather surprised at apocrypha for agreeing with slog's tired old bollocks.  The others who agreed?  Not surprised at all.

My only point was that young people spend way too much time agnoizing over things that don't matter.  In 15 years or so he will realize this an kick himself.  This guy just needs to chill.

I wasn't expecting him (or any other 24 year old) to act on my advice.   This is the kind of stuf you just have to learn for yourself.

[DraconianOne]

Is there an option where you castrate someone and stay with them?

Sure.  It's called a vasectomy.

Um...


Actually, let's not go there.

[Fraeg]

Photek:

World population is around 6.9 billion people, slightly more than half are male.  So lets say that puts the female population around 3.4 billion.

Getting advice from jaded 30 somethings is probably not your best bet.  And hearing “in ten years you will look back and laugh” is shitty (but true) advice no matter what age you are.

My 2 cents? Live, learn, grow, and realize that there are 3,400,000,000 other fish in the sea for you to meet.

[TheWalrus]

Is there an option where you castrate someone and stay with them?

Sure.  It's called a vasectomy.

Funny, I was gonna say marriage. Ba dum ching!

[UnSub]

Is there an option where you castrate someone and stay with them?

Sure.  It's called a vasectomy.

Funny, I was gonna say marriage. Ba dum ching!

That was going to be my joke too.

With a dry cool wit like that, I could write a second-rate sitcom!

[Slayerik]

My 2c...

Just keep hanging with her and having fun. Lighten up. Fuck a lot.

If it stops being fun, and she becomes a headache go hook up with another chick. Since being divorced 3 months ago I have been talking to 4 different chicks, I don't promise em anything and just enjoy their company/sex or just hang out. I'm 29, I feel like I'm catching up for what I shoulda been doing at 24. I'm not saying this is healthy behavior either (and not the easiest on the pocket book), stick with a couple or one at a time if ya want.

Stop giving a fuck. Since that happened women have been easy. Have fun, enjoy your twenties and if you fall upon real , reciprocated love .... go for it. I won't hate so much on 20 year olds as everyone else...probably cause I'm hooking up with one. She is pretty down to earth and is a lot of fun. Would I get in a serious relationship with her? Fuck no.

[Azazel]

I'd go with Slayerik's advice.

[WindupAtheist]

You being a little more distant and giving her some space WILL speed up HER resolution that she either does or does not want to be in a relationship with you. This is hard for you because you do not want to take any chance that she will not choose to be with you. However what you are doing will only hurt your chances. You have to give her time to miss you and think about you.

Like I said, ignoring her is the secret weapon. And if it fails, at least you didn't go out like an emo baby.

[Grimwell]

This thread seems to have brought out the talking assholes. I don't even think some of you are kidding around.  Geez.  I'm rather surprised at apocrypha for agreeing with slog's tired old bollocks.  The others who agreed?  Not surprised at all.

I think you are being unfair to the older guys who just aren't expressing themselves politely. Allow me to try... and if I fail forgive me for being a crude and barbaric jerk. 

I'm 37. I've been married since 1995. I married a woman in her early 20's who was ready to marry (as evidenced by it working) and she was a lot of fun to be with then. She's still younger than me (29 last time I checked  ) and a lot of fun to be with now. She is my partner, and we make a damn good team that can get shit done, raise a family, and still have time to pretend we have time to be romantic. While it's not the stuff of movies, we aren't plagued by zombies or giant robots so I think we are doing something right and have a good thing in trade for the lack of Hollywood's false dreams.

I'm older, more mature, and know a hell of a lot more about life and women than I did when I got married. That maturity, and time with a woman has given me a lot of insight on women that I never had when I was a single punk. Single guys rarely have the chance to really understand the opportunities they have in front of them with single girls and relationships. Which is why so many tall tales start with "If I could go back to high school... I'd get a lot more action!"

We would. We know more, too much probably, which is part of the plan socially. At some point in the lives of men who dated a lot of women in their time (dated, not slept with) they realize just how many more of them they could have had but failed to because they didn't understand the incoming signals. How many times did you, or any other girl you knew really hit on a guy and have him absolutely not notice? It wasn't because he didn't like you (well, maybe he didn't, but some of them did) it was because he was oblivious to your signals.

Older men pick up on the signals better, which is why many divorced men date younger women. They have a savvy that younger men lack. Its compensation for grey hair, baldness, and a gut. The young guys have health and potential fitness, the old guys have potential wealth and the ability to see the signals a woman puts out... better than the young guys at least.

So we circle back to our errant hero here... He's dating a 20 year old, probably is blind with love for her, and he's freaking her shit out because he's at a different place than she is in life. He asks for advice from a bunch of older men. Their brain processes his situation and arrives at the following conclusions:

• She's not ready for the relationship he wants.
• He's triggering her avoidance reaction because he expresses that he cares so much.
• The odds of this working for him in the long run are extremely low.
• He is much more likely to get dumped, slowly and painfully, until he realizes it and walks or she gets really direct and says "...just friends... need my space... etc."
• Our hero could probably use a few more relationships too, he's a bit too willing to sacrifice himself and does not see it.
• Sex with 20 year olds isn't as fun as it is with grown women, but their bodies are fun to play with if you can keep them quiet long enough to enjoy them.

Noting all that, a doomed relationship and a knight errant on a fools quest... the best advice is to tell him to try to enjoy the ride but be ready for it to end abruptly. Add in the level of comfort and coarseness here at f13 (it's not 4chan but still...) and what people post is:

"Fuck her, her mother, her sister, and her dog if she has one. Then leave them all."

What anyone reading between the lines to ignore the machismo and humor will see:

"Dude, life is too short! Have some fun! The odds of this working out are pretty damn low, and while I wish you the best, you should really just focus on having a good time with her and enjoying what she has to offer. Even if that means you slowly come to accept that it's doomed. If it works out and I'm wrong, you will have enjoyed the ride to a very good place. If it works out that I'm right, you will have enjoyed the ride and can walk away at the end with no regrets. Either way, enjoy the ride, creating misery isn't a good way to live."

Sure, you have to read between the lines, and it's easier to say "You are all a bunch of pigs and have confirmed my thoughts about you." but to be honest, I'd tell a young girl the same thing. She should enjoy the ride and have some fun, at that age the ride is much more important than the destination.

Hell, at my age, the ride is what matters. I can't control what is going to happen in my life, but I can at least try to enjoy the ride with my wife and make something good of it with her.

Doesn't that make sense? Does it really matter that they just said "Fuck her and run?" to be internet cool? I don't think so. :)

...and thus ends my overly long random post for the month. ;P

[Ironwood]

Older men pick up on the signals better, which is why many divorced men date younger women.

...

Yeah, that's exactly why.