PC Gaming on a TV

[Morfiend]

Ok, I am considering setting up house so I can use my computer on my TV. I am going to be getting a big HiDef TV really soon, and this sounded like a good idea.

Also, a bunch of people have been asking what I want for Xmas and so I thought maybe the parts I would need. So, my question is. How hard is it to hook my computer to desplay on my living room TV, and what parts would I need to buy?

Off the top of my head I was thinking, a long cable from my computer to the TV, (the computer will be about 20 ft away, and will not always be used on the TV, just some of the time). I would also need a good wireless keyboard and mouse (what kind of reliable range are we talking on these things?). I think my graphics card can handle it. I have the 6800GE.

Has anyone done this, and how did it work out for you?

Thanks in advance.

[Soukyan]

Sky does this on a 62" television with some crazy awesome surround sound system. I know he could provide some good specs for ya.

[Rof]

The right cable should be just a matter of finding an s-video cable (or for a TV with phono inputs, an s-video to composite phono cable) long enough to reach from your computer to your TV.

Most higher-end graphics cards come with TV-out.

However, I tried this recently with my (ATi brand) radeon 9600 pro and the colour quality was really shitty. Even playing with every contrast/brightness/etc. control on the computer and the TV, I couldn't get any well defined colours on the display. Everying looked black&white and washed out, like Sky Captain or something.

So I'm guessing some graphics cards are better at this than others.

[Morfiend]

This is the TV I plan on getting Sony XBR and this is my graphics card Ge-Force 6800GT.

[Trippy]

The right cable should be just a matter of finding an s-video cable (or for a TV with phono inputs, an s-video to composite phono cable) long enough to reach from your computer to your TV.

That'll give you suboptimal picture quality on an HDTV.

In theory if your video card has a DVI output you can hook up to your HDTV with that but in practice it's kind of complicated. Here's one guide that explains how to use the Powerstrip utility to setup the custom settings you'll probably need to fiddle with to get your video card to display a clean picture on an HDTV:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/powerstrip.html

[Sky]

Firstly, ignore anyone who tells you to use s-video :)

Secondly, get thee to avsforum.com. Pretty crappy gaming section, but a good htpc section. I spent a lot of time there checking out what tvs people are using for their pcs, and the Samsung DLP (which I have, 61") had the least amount of problems (it was quite literally, plug and play). I did use powerstrip, but not for making obscure timings or anything, but just to create a driver .inf file for my 'monitor', because they (tv sets) don't have a driver and just use the plug & play driver windows autoassigns. A couple of clicks and a driver reinstall later, I uninstalled powerstrip and have been gaming strong since. You can get lots of help at that forum on that, or ask me (though I'm not good to ask because mine was so easy I didn't learn much :)).

Note: that set is +++ over mine :) Also costs more than twice as much, but hey...this feature: "You can watch pictures from two different sources (1080i, 720p, 480p, or 480i) simultaneously." Wowzers, that's cool! I might have to sell mine off and upgrade...

The only thing I couldn't find, which is pretty important, is the native resolution. Since it's a) expensive and b) not 1080p, I'll guess 720p native for HD, but that doesn't necessarily translate to an automatic 1280x720, which is widely supported in graphics card drivers. An oddball resolution might mean more time spent with powerstrip customizing your setup, one reason I went with my tv. Again, spend a few nights reading over the HUGE volume of good posts over at avsforum.com, looking specifically for your tv model and gpu.

Since you have a DVI port on the tv, I'd recommend using that. My tv has both VGA and DVI ins, and I found the DVI picture was much sharper (perfectly crisp pixels, it's sick) and the overscan was minimal compared to using the analog VGA connection.

If you simply have to use DVI for HD or whatever, ATI does make a component dongle, you can find tons of info (again, heh) at avsforum.com in the htpc forum. Luckily, you have a common gpu and that tv is big enough name to find some help. I have a DVI cable box, but the difference between the HD cable image over component and DVI vs the image improvement with DVI over VGA for the pc forced that decision, I use component for my HD cable. Component is your new LCD connection, use nothing less unless the outputting device doesn't support it (like an old VCR).

The only odd thing with that set is the integrated HD tuner. Unless you plan on doing OTA reception (over-the-air, broadcast HD local channels), you don't really need it. Your cable/satellite box has an hd tuner already (well, when you upgrade to the HD box it will).

Goddamned nice tv, I bet it'll make a great htpc experience! Once you've gamed like that, you'll never want to go back. But, once more, avsforum.com ;) Great resource, huge readership. A little more noise as HD gains marketshare, but still solid imo.

[Sky]

Bump this tomorrow and I'll get into the peripherals and whatnot, gotta go watch some MNF ;)

[Morfiend]

So, ok, it seems to be a bit more complicated and in depth than. Plug in such-and-such cable in to such-and-such port.

[Big Gulp]

I've done this on a friend's overhead projector, and the idea of it is a lot better than the execution.  I just wasn't too awed by the whole deal, and went right back to playing on a monitor.

[Sky]

Don't listen to Gulp. I don't know how anyone can't be awed by big screen gaming. I still am, a year later. I don't know what happened, or what resolution/vintage projector was being used, the equipment is pretty critical to a good experience.

Morph, it's not really that complicated at all. Just create a new monitor driver with a shareware app (lots of people don't do even that, but it makes things easier, I've found). That's it. HD resolutions are supported by current video card drivers, so you're golden from that end. If you use DVI, you're done, about 3 minutes of work, including reboots.

Of course, then you are on the cutting edge and have to tweak a lot of games, but that's as simple as changing the resolution in a .cfg or .ini file, I have most games up and running in HD in 5 minutes, including research time (widescreengamingforum.com).

As far as your gpu, you're fine (assuming it has DVI output), I'm using a Sapphire 9800Pro (the 256MB of DDR2 VRAM pay off in spades in EQ2, btw, I've been running maximum texture resolutions). Basically, you're just running at 1280x720. If your gpu can handle that resolution (it can), you're fine. My ti4400 was also just fine, I only upgraded for better FSAA/AF, because of the fixed pixel resolution.

I did take a look through a grand wega tweak thread (your intended set is at the top end of that line, thread here), and although it's a sweet tv, it appears folks have to put in a lot of time tweaking it for basic stuff like 1024x768. Appears to be a non-standard native res (1384x784?), whereas my Samsung DLP is 1280x720 native. One of the reasons I bought it, it's so damned easy to use as a pc monitor, most hdtvs are good at hd, but finicky as a pc monitor. The only problem I have with my set is the occasional game that doesn't support HD resolutions (Thief: DS, for instance), but the vast majority do in one way or another (use the widescreengamingforum for reference).

If you're dead-set on that set, you might have a bit more tweaking ahead of you than I had, but in the end it's so worth it. I use my pc as my dvd player and audio source, and all my media is located in one spot. Not a great WAP (wife approval factor), but hey, I'm single ;)

For input, I use a Logitech Wireless MX Duo and a logitech cordless rumblepad 2. Seems a lot of people don't like just keeping the keyboard in their lap, you can dig up some threads on avsforum.com about input ideas. I like just having the keyboard in my lap, so I'm not good for help there, I guess. I'm only 10' away, but the communication is solid, and I've had the keyboard in the bathroom a few times as a media controller, and it's been solid from there, which is about 20' through walls (rf). Some people swear by bluetooth and hate rf, rf works great for me, has for almost a year now. I was wired the first couple months, which was a pain, had the pc in the middle of the living room, really need wireless input imo.

So in the end, I think all you'll need is a good wireless input setup and the shareware app, powerstrip. Luckily, you're looking at one of the most popular sets around, so lots of people have broken ground ahead of you. It's a little bit of work up front, but having gamed on a 61" monitor for the last year now, it's been more than worth it.

Here's a couple images to get an idea what it's like in action. Websurfing from 10' is no problem at all.

Do you have a surround sound receiver? What kind of sound card/onboard are you using? My Asus A7N8X Deluxe has digital optical/coax Dolby Digital 5.1 (droolz), which dovetails nicely with my receiver, which is far from top-end. If you're using an Audigy, you'll need a receiver with analog surround inputs, but again, you'd be well covered, research-wise, as way more people have audigies than nforce mobos (unless they planned ahead). I again refer you to avsforum.com, plenty of info on hooking up sound cards to receivers.

Ok, I think that covers it, lemme know if you have more questions.

[Ironwood]

This is the TV I plan on getting Sony XBR and this is my graphics card Ge-Force 6800GT.

I just bought that card.

Earplugs.  Get some fucking earplugs....

[schild]

Morphiend, get a projector and DVDO iScan HD Pro (or whaever it's called, their top of the line Graphics Processor). Buying a 70" Projection screen boarders on Very Stupid.

[Sky]

Care to give some reasons why or just drop that on the poor bastard? Why would he buy that DVDO iScan HD Pro (for $1200!)? No need, unless he has a ton of old a/v gear that won't look very good no matter how you upscale it. PC to tv via DVI, use the pc for your progressive scan dvd player, hd feed from the tuner in the cable/sat box.

And thanks for calling me 'boarderline' stupid. Everyone who's been to my house would vehemently disagree. Not saying a projector isn't cool in the right situation, but it's just another option imo. From my perspective, the DVDO thing is very stupid, but then I don't think my opinion is 'right', it's just my opinion.

[schild]

I wasn't calling you stupid. I was calling a $6,000+ Projection TV stupid. Big Huge (read: Heavy) TVs are a thing of the past.

[Morfiend]

I wasn't calling you stupid. I was calling a $6,000+ Projection TV stupid. Big Huge (read: Heavy) TVs are a thing of the past.

If you ever get the chance to see this TV in person. You would understand why it is popular on those boards Sky posted. The picture is amazing. It FAR exceeds any plasma TV or HDTV I have ever seen. Since I work all day with high quality images, it leads me to be kind of picky about image quality. When I saw this TV in the store, my friend and I litterly stopped dead and just stared at it for over 15 minutes. It really is a thing of beauty.

Also, what amazed me, is the normal non-hidef image looked really good, which is untrue for plasma and other hidef I have seen. If you like picture quality, you have to go to your local Circut City or Best Buy and see this TV in action.

Also, this TV is very slim. I think about 10 inches at the deepest point.

[Furiously]

Depends how your light control is. Projectors are great if you can make the room nice and dark.

I'd take a big TV anyday in a room with a lot of sun.

I have a Barco 800 graphics and a 49 inch rear projection TV, you know which I use 99% of the time? The TV.

[Morfiend]

Do you have a surround sound receiver? What kind of sound card/onboard are you using? My Asus A7N8X Deluxe has digital optical/coax Dolby Digital 5.1 (droolz), which dovetails nicely with my receiver, which is far from top-end. If you're using an Audigy, you'll need a receiver with analog surround inputs, but again, you'd be well covered, research-wise, as way more people have audigies than nforce mobos (unless they planned ahead). I again refer you to avsforum.com, plenty of info on hooking up sound cards to receivers.

Ok, I think that covers it, lemme know if you have more questions.

I have a Onkyo receiver with 6.1 set up. My sound card is my onboard AC97, but I have no problem going uut and buying a new sound card. Infact I have been looking for an excuse to do so.

Depends how your light control is. Projectors are great if you can make the room nice and dark.

I'd take a big TV anyday in a room with a lot of sun.

I have a Barco 800 graphics and a 49 inch rear projection TV, you know which I use 99% of the time? The TV.

I have trouble making my living room really dark. The TV is farily close to a window. And my cats constantly run and let light in. Thats one of the main reasions I want a big TV not a projector.

[Raph]

I just went this route myself (getting a MAME setup in my TV room, to join all the consoles and DVD and stuff). I also have the Samsung DLP, just got it, and it's 1280x720 native. It was plug and play, but the image (running thru analog monitor jack for now, I need a newer video card in that machine--it's a Ti200 right now) is a bit blurry in places for text. I fixed that by just upping the font size in Windows--not like I am planning on using it for surfing, really, just for games.

I wonder what the cheapest modern card with a DVI jack is... or I could upgrade my current machine (which is still on a Ti4600) and migrate that over, it's got DVI... hmm...)

[HaemishM]

Not exactly a modern ATI Radeon 7000 - $35

If you just want cheap. :)

Skipping over the Nvidia 5200's and on to a decent DirectX 9 card, there's:

Radeon 9600 w/ DVI - $66

[Sky]

Big Huge (read: Heavy) TVs are a thing of the past.

Ahh, ok, gotcha. The eqholic's old CRT 50" SD set (the old-style big tvs) weighs in around 300lbs, need a couple guys to move it. My 61" set weighs 100lbs, I can move it myself easily. No glass tube, it's mostly empty space inside the set. Hell, I wish I could have gotten it without speakers, would have knocked another 10 lbs off. (I'll also insert an apology for making it borderline confrontational, I had just posted in the pot thread...)

I have a Onkyo receiver with 6.1 set up. My sound card is my onboard AC97, but I have no problem going uut and buying a new sound card. Infact I have been looking for an excuse to do so.

Definitely take the time to look over the posts at avsforum.com, I know I'm getting repetetive, but they've looked at just about every piece of hardware out there. The thing is getting the proper surround signal to the receiver, easy when you have a digital coax/optical out, and you may.

It was plug and play, but the image (running thru analog monitor jack for now, I need a newer video card in that machine--it's a Ti200 right now) is a bit blurry in places for text.

Sounds exactly like my image quality when I was connected via the VGA jack. Switching to DVI sharpened it right up. If you need a new card for the DVI output, I'd still recommend something fairly beefy (like my 9800pro) so you can get good image processing (FSAA/AF). Just my observations moving from a ti4400 to 9800pro. With the very sharp pixel accuracy, aliasing is pretty noticeable, but I'm susceptible to aliasing, pet peeve, ymmv.

[Morfiend]

Well, I dont know if you remember my Surround Sound thread. I had a bunch of problems getting it set up.

I have my Cable Box, TiVo, Xbox, Gamecube and Playstation all connecting to my Onkyo receiver.

I have the TV signal running all with S-Video. The Gamecube and PS2 are using RCAs, and my Xbox is running digital/optical. There is another open digital/optical connection, but I dont know if I can get digital all the way from Cable box to TiVo to Reciever.

Its basically a big clusterfuck. I will check out those boards you said.

[Sky]

The s-vid will look like crap on the hd set, just to warn you. I wasn't kidding when I said your new lowest common denominator is component. The PS2 doesn't do HD, either. The xbox has good hd support and the cube has some (with component cables for both, of course).

Basically, your entire setup is going to change, and probably get more clusterfucky, but maybe not. About 8 months after I got my hdtv, my consoles went into storage and I returned to being primarily a pc gamer, so that solved my clusterfuckiness for the most part.

I don't have TiVo, but again, you know where to go look now ;) You might have issues running hd signals through it anyway, I don't know. I'm thinking of dropping even more money into my cable bill abyss and getting the DVR service until there is a decent hd pc card on the market (one that actually works with cable/satellite and not just OTA like the ATI AIW HD version...).

Good luck, ask away if anything crops up.

[Rof]

Probably a bad idea to run it through the Tivo. If it's anything like my Replay TV (another PVR), you get about a 1-second lag between the input and what's displayed, due to processing delays. I tried hooking up my PS2 through it, and it made playing impossible.

[Polysorbate80]

Sky's right about the s-video bit.  All an s-video connector does is separate the luminance & chroma portions of the analog signal so they're carried on different wires (within the same cable) so they don't bleed into each quite so bad.  It's better than a plain ol' composite video signal, but not that much, and it really shows on HD displays, which are meant to stay in the digital realm for best picture.

If you can keep it digital, do it.

[Raph]

I can't keep it all digital. :)

My setup looks like this (attempts to diagram failed):

PS2, Dreamcast, GC, xBox --> S Video Switcher

Cable box (component), S Video Switcher, CD/DVD player (component), VCR, PC (analog) --> TV

Cable box (digital), S Video Switcher (analog), CD/DVD player (digital), VCR, Cassette, PC --> Receiver

TV --> VCR (dunno what for, but what the hey, I don't have a video capture board)

Nomad Xtra --> PC (streams thru the PC, but I'll be moving the contents onto the PC permanently)

The PC will be running MAME (and a bunch of other emus) by the end of the week. And that PC will also have all the MP3s on it. Right now, it streams them off of the 40 gig Nomad that's hooked up to the PC. I run everything's audio thru the receiver--and of course, I left off the CD/DVD changer and the tape deck that run into the receiver as well.

I thought about getting a SLiMP3 or equivalent, but the PC in there for MAME will do just as well, at least until I run out of HD space (which is probably very soon--I have a large CD collection and have ripped less than half of it and I am at 30gig).

[Shavnir]

Not like hard drives are too expensive Raph.  just throw a 120 gig in there and call it a day :P

[schild]

Raph, a kid halfway through college just pwned you.

[Polysorbate80]

Hard to follow that diagram, Raph :)

I could be reading it wrong, but I'm guessing your video card is putting out a 720x480 NTSC signal over that s-video connection?  If so, you'll never get a really clean picture.  Non-interlaced RGB will cheerfully display video that will make a standard TV break down and beg for mercy.  

Loss of resolution aside, you'll especially notice problems in the fine detail; if the images are too crisp, they'll shimmer or throb on a TV.  When I build a graphic in Photoshop, I always have to add a slight Gaussian blur to it to make it work when imported to our non-linear editors or the image sort of vibrates.

Narrow horizontal lines are also troublesome (interlacing can make them practically disappear if they're narrow enough) as well as colors (RGB color ranges from 0,0,0 to 255,255,255, but NTSC only goes from about 17,17,17 to 238,238,238.  Even some of those colors in the 'legal' range bleed terribly on NTSC (also known as "Never The Same Color")

I suppose what that boils down to is, uh, buy that new video card.  Or a projector (not my favorite choice, I don't think they're as crisp as a display). Or a second TV :)

[Sky]

Poly, Raph's tv (same kind as mine) allows for VGA and DVI input, so he's running the analog VGA from his video card into the tv. I'd assume he's got it up and running at 1280x720, the native resolution. Still should create a monitor driver with powerstrip to get some of the 'funky' resolutions, which on the 16:9 hdtv are 4:3 resolutions like 1024x768, an almost essential resolution to have. Since your using component for your cable and DVD (I use my pc for DVDs, the 9800 pro does a great job of scaling, imo, though the faroudja internals of the sammy are very nice, too), I'd definitely look into that video card upgrade and connect via DVI.

When I had all my consoles hooked up I was using my receiver as a component switch, but now I'm directly into the tv for all my video sources (xbox needed the Live dashboard update to make it progressive scan, then I could plug it into the non-480i component input on the sammy, it's unique to our tvs, Raph, the first component input is 480i/480p, the rest are 480p/720p/1080i).

It's worth getting component cables for the xbox and maybe the cube (have to get directly from nintendo, though). I believe the dreamcast also has a lot of progressive scan games (need at least component to pass a progressive scan signal).

Other than that, everything looks kosher. I don't do MAME, because I'm really a luddite in disguise as an IT nerd, but I do have a bunch of C64 emu stuff. The first time I played ultima 4 on my hdtv, it was kind of mindblowing, a kind of tribute to my younger self.

Raph, a kid halfway through college just pwned you.

Your time will come, whippersnapper ;) There was a time when I, too, was up on all the whiz-bang space-age technology.

[Polysorbate80]

OK, a VGA input would avoid most of the problems, then.  

Going analog still introduces noise and an overall quality loss, but how bad that is depends on your gear and your personal taste.  I don't care for it (sounds like you don't either) but some people don't even notice :)

[geldonyetich]

Route a PC into a TV monitor?  Wrong direction, I want better resolution, not worse.

Now, routing a PS2 or Gamecube into a VGA monitor, there's a tough trick.   I haven't found a console VGA box that even comes close to the quality of the ones made for the Dreamcast.

[schild]

Here's what I use:

iScan Pro - for things that have no component option (i.e. Dreamcast, Gamecube, older systems)

iScan Ultra - For everything else

I also have an ATI thing that seems to be discontinued. I'll look up the name when I get home. Basically it had a tvtuner, s-video in, composite in and vga passthrus that could all be output to VGA at any resolution (up to 1280x1024 I believe). It works quite well and only cost $99.

[geldonyetich]

Yowsa, those iScan devices are kinda pricey.  But then again, considering the goal is to avoid getting a progressive scan capable TV (HDTV) by routing it to a VGA monitor, they pay for themselves.  Hmm, interesting.   (Course', HDTVs will probably be $200 before I'm out of College and working at a job that makes actual money (tm).)  

I guess the intricies involved in getting progressive scan to display on a VCR monitor explains why the cheap VGA boxes are utter crap that looks better on the television than the monitor.     Yet, I can't help but wonder: Why it is that the Dreamcast had VGA boxes that plugged directly into the Dreamcast and did an excellent job at displaying games at high resolution for under $100 but nothing like that is available for  current consoles?

A pity the plug was pulled on Bleem.   It was fascinating all the textures you can't see in a PS1 game played on the PS1.

[Big Gulp]

A pity the plug was pulled on Bleem.   It was fascinating all the textures you can't see in a PS1 game played on the PS1.

There's a far better freeware emulator out there than Bleem:  ePSXe

[Sky]

Why it is that the Dreamcast had VGA boxes that plugged directly into the Dreamcast and did an excellent job at displaying games at high resolution for under $100 but nothing like that is available for current consoles?

http://www.x2vga.com/

things that have no component option (i.e. Dreamcast, Gamecube, older systems)

http://www.nintendo.com/gcnlarge?gallery=accessory&currentNo=8

I'm still not sure why I'd need Schild's setup. Can you enlighten me, I'm interested. Is it just that I have a great scaler in my tv (faroudja), or that I'm sending it mostly 720p signals already? Is it that I have enough inputs on my tv to avoid needing a combiner?

My connections run like this: PC (DVI, optical digital sound); Xbox (component, optical digital sound); GC (composite a/v, intend on getting the component cable, but I don't play many GC titles, so I haven't bothered); Cable (component, optical digital sound); VCR (composite a/v: very rarely used, once I transfer my music tapes over, I'll toss it). Really the only things I use are the cable box and pc.

Route a PC into a TV monitor? Wrong direction, I want better resolution, not worse.

1280x720 is a nice resolution, and it's about the size of the display, primarily, and gaming from the sofa, not hunched over a desk. As I've said, I never want to use a standard pc monitor again, I've been to the mountain and whatnot.