Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[Venkman]

Dragon Empires.  I think.  Can't be bothered to look.

Yep. Dragon Empires, from Codemasters. Cancelled in 2004.

[waffel]

This Barnett guy keeps turning out to be more a fuckface than I'd ever thought.

[Delmania]

This Barnett guy keeps turning out to be more a fuckface than I'd ever thought.

He is/was a major part of Mythic's attempt to rebrand itself as a hardcore version of Blzzard.  The problem is, for those of us who don't own a wolf shirt* and demand quality over image, he's an obnoxious ass. 

* shameless stolen from another thread.

[Lantyssa]

I'll take five-star talent with three-star drive and a producer who knows how to leverage it into something four-and-a-half stars anyday.

The five-drive, three-talent led by an ass obviously didn't work out so well.

[Ratman_tf]

I'll take five-star talent with three-star drive and a producer who knows how to leverage it into something four-and-a-half stars anyday.

The five-drive, three-talent led by an ass obviously didn't work out so well.

Fuck, I'd trade them all for a team that does a good jerb. Having said that, any team led by an ass is going to get led right off a cliff.

[EWSpider]

At the very least you want 4-5 star talent engineers working on your game engine.  WAR is a shining example of what you get when you have 3 star (or very inexperienced) engineers working on your engine.

[chargerrich]

I'll take five-star talent with three-star drive and a producer who knows how to leverage it into something four-and-a-half stars anyday.

The five-drive, three-talent led by an ass obviously didn't work out so well.

Well he succeeded, because if WoW is the benchmark for 5 star talent, WAR is at best 3 stars... and yet his minions do seem fervent, so viola!

Success is had, at least in the eyes of the believers. Too bad 3 star talent with 5 star myopia drive does not equate to anything more than 300k subs and "also ran" status.

[Lantyssa]

If there weren't two million WoW players looking for another game to hook them, I'd say they would be extremely lucky to have 300k.

[Nebu]

We know for a fact that there are at least 800k players looking for an MMO to play.  AoC and WAR both sold over 800k boxes. 

[Ratman_tf]

We know for a fact that there are at least 800k players looking for an MMO to play MMOG hoppers with ADD.  AoC and WAR both sold over 800k boxes. 

 

[sam, an eggplant]

So what you're saying is that if someone releases a MMO better than WoW, people will buy it, and it'll be successful?

Well, no shit.

[Nebu]

So what you're saying is that if someone releases a MMO better than WoW, people will buy it, and it'll be successful?

Well, no shit.

No.  I was saying that there's a healthy market out there for a product not WoW that should be able to garner and maintain 1 million subs. 

But yeah, no shit to this too!

[Malakili]

So what you're saying is that if someone releases a MMO better than WoW, people will buy it, and it'll be successful?

Well, no shit.

I actually disagree on this point.  A large amount of WoW subscribers aren't really MMO gamers.  They don't follow MMO news, then don't care about game mechanics, etc.  WoW is not just a game, its a pop culture phenomenon at this point.  Its building on its own success.   I don't buy that a game that is  "better" than WoW will necessarily be successful. 

This assumes you were talking about people from WoW switching and making it successful.  There are games that are better than WoW currently, but I wouldn't say that they are necessarily successful, or that the comparison is even warranted.  For instance is EVE "better than WoW" I'd say yes (in that I prefer it to WoW), and I'd say its successful, but "better than" implies "better at doing something" and since the games aren't even trying to do the same things, how do you say one is "better" really. 

So, I think games that will be successful and "better than WoW" will likely not be anything LIKE WoW to begin with.  A game that does everything that WoW does, only better, probably won't pull a huge amount of players from WoW.  That market is quite saturated. 

So, basically, i agree with Nebu

[Sparky]

So what you're saying is that if someone releases a MMO better than WoW, people will buy it, and it'll be successful?

Well, no shit.

Better than WoW?  Jeez, I'd settle for not completely terrible.

[Ratman_tf]

That market is quite saturated. 

If developers heed any of the bullshit we spew on here, that should be it.

[Slyfeind]

I actually disagree on this point.  A large amount of WoW subscribers aren't really MMO gamers.  They don't follow MMO news, then don't care about game mechanics, etc.  WoW is not just a game, its a pop culture phenomenon at this point.  Its building on its own success.   I don't buy that a game that is  "better" than WoW will necessarily be successful.

Well yeah. You could say ten million WoW players are in it just for something to do. But that still leaves two million "MMO gamers."

(But then again I think "a large amount" is too imprecise, I'm curious what you're basing this "a large amount" on, and I'm also curious why the common belief is that we've run out of gamers and there will never ever be more than 12 million.)

[Musashi]

I think in the interest of being fair, although I really don't want to stand in the way of the shit slinging, we have to consider the nature of those 800k WoW players looking for something new.  Sure they may be yearning for something else, whether it be better or worse than WoW.  However I think a large part of the problem for games that aren't WoW is that the demographics of those 800k are vastly different.  They all want something different.  So while on the surface it might seem to a dev house like there are those 800k ripe for the picking if we just make a decent game, it isn't quite as it seems.

So what ends up happening is what we've witnessed here in the numerous failures.  Sure you can point to numerous failings of management and engineering, but at the end of the day there's more to it than that.  A game goes into beta and hundreds of thousands of WoW burnouts jump ship.  Then they all simultaneously have one of the following reactions:

A.  This is not the next sandboxy Eve I was hoping for.
B.  This is not the more immersive min/max EQ successor I was hoping for.
C.  This is not the open PvP slaughterhouse I was hoping for.
D.  Your cause de jour.

Then those 800k collectively look around at bugs, poorly implemented features, etc. and wring their hands at themselves as they log back into their Utopian Warcraft paradise together and say, "Well, maybe next time."

[HaemishM]

I think when saying "Better than WoW" to try to attract that player base, you have to think that Step 1 is absolutely "better polish than WoW." If you can't even proceed past Step 1, you will end up in Warhammer and Age of Conan land. I.e. you will have pissed away a metric fuckton of development budget for niche market status.

[Draegan]

I think the first thing in any MMOG after a working engine and art direction is if you have a function UI.  Chat systems, mail system, AH systems (if your game supports it), key rebind systems etc.  It's amazing that some games have shit for communication and chat systems and other customization.

[sam, an eggplant]

MMOs aren't unique snowflakes just by dint of being online. They're video games, and thus entertainment, and that market is nowhere remotely near saturated. It's like pussy. Bear with me here a moment.

You can never, ever get enough new pussy. Even though new pussy is substantially quite similar to previous pussy, and the end result is the same, the thrill of exploring and conquering new pussy never gets old. Same deal with all pleasurable activities. We all chase that dragon, whether it's in our choice of video games, szechuan hotpot, or thai-style soapy massage. It's human nature to crave experience, it's how we grow and learn and deal with the monotony of day to day life. The entertainment market isn't saturated any more than the food market. We all gotta eat, fuck, and have fun.

[waffel]

The opinion of a WoW burnout shouldn't matter at all to Mythic or any game developer at this point. Anyone that has been playing WoW for years obviously has no self respect and their opinion about what is a good MMO is non-existent. Mythic's goal at pulling some of those players into their game is half-assed to say the least. Mythic had a niche, they had a dedicated player base willing to give them a second chance (after ToA) and they fucking blew it. Releasing a RvR niche game, which pleased their old DAoC fanbase while generating positive word of mouth is the way to 'come close' to WoW. Mythic HAD the fanbase from DAoC and blew it, no other games on the horizon have that.

I apologize for turning yet another thread about Mythic/EA/War into a 'What Mythic did wrong' The horse has been beat to death so I'll leave this:

It's like masturbating with your right hand for 4 years and becoming slightly bored with it. In a flash of genius you decide that using your left might be a fun change of pace and make things more exciting. However, after trying the same act with your left hand you soon realize that its just not the same. After a few minutes of awkwardness, you decide to go back to the ol tried n true right hand and everything feels normal again.
That is a WoW burnout.

[sidereal]

Clearly this thread needs more conversation about fucking and masturbation

[Lantyssa]

And more ambidexterity.

[Hindenburg]

The opinion of a WoW burnout shouldn't matter at all to Mythic or any game developer at this point. Anyone that has been playing WoW for years obviously has no self respect and their opinion about what is a good MMO is non-existent.

Just for kicks, do point out a better MMO than WoW.

 

[Venkman]

WoW ended the evolution of the side of the genre that purely focuses on character optimization. They did everything we ever wanted from EQ1, and we know how many people like this kind of game. It's not technically impossible to do a better WoW. But no other company has the will, even if they had the resources. So launching a new MMO simply because it's a dikuMUD isn't going to cut it.

But there's ample room to explore FPSes and try and achieve true RPGs: That magical combination of dynamic world branching story arcs where combat is something that occasionally happens.

The existing players who've been around since UO are older now. As each game needs to worry about attraction, retention and attrition, so does the whole genre. That problem was partly solved by the emergent desire by tweens to play light persistent worlds. But they outgrow those and have really only WoW as a solid option. Then they do the whole teenage angsty stuff, and who the heck knows if they'll come back to WoW after that. It's almost a certainty that they ain't going to some lesser-quality grind.

Whoever cracks that nut, whoever can make a truly nextgen title that works for the future young adults, and probably on a console, that will be the new game to compare the world against. Right now there's plenty to compare against WoW, but the numbers, business models, demographics, and play motivations make things all screwy.

[Redgiant]

A.  This is not the next sandboxy Eve I was hoping for.
B.  This is not the more immersive min/max EQ successor I was hoping for.
C.  This is not the open PvP slaughterhouse I was hoping for.
D.  Your cause de jour.

Then those 800k collectively look around at bugs, poorly implemented features, etc. and wring their hands at themselves as they log back into their Utopian Warcraft paradise together and say, "Well, maybe next time."

E. This is not an updated version of what made DAoC wonderful.

By far this is the segment that most disgruntled WAR gamers fall into, regardless of what other characteristics of (A-D) they might also have. You are right that what "different" means varies from person to person, but the bias for (E) is huge by comparison to the other choices.

Open RvR; do it right or don't bother.

[Malakili]

The opinion of a WoW burnout shouldn't matter at all to Mythic or any game developer at this point. Anyone that has been playing WoW for years obviously has no self respect and their opinion about what is a good MMO is non-existent.

Just for kicks, do point out a better MMO than WoW.

 

Assume EVE Online isn't a viable answer, I would say that Lord of the Rings Online is better than WoW. Better graphics, better crafted world, better story, better classes.  Similar gameplay.  Somewhat similar achievement system (and even did it first).  The only thing you might be able to say WoW has the edge on is PvP, and I humbly suggest that if PvP is your game, than neither WoW or LOTRO is your best option anyway.

[Hindenburg]

Assume EVE Online isn't a viable answer, I would say that Lord of the Rings Online is better than WoW. Better graphics, better crafted world, better story, better classes.  Similar gameplay.  Somewhat similar achievement system (and even did it first).  The only thing you might be able to say WoW has the edge on is PvP, and I humbly suggest that if PvP is your game, than neither WoW or LOTRO is your best option anyway.

Out of the 4 betters, 3 are completely subjective. One may be correct from a technical standpoint.

I'm certain you can see where this particular detour will end.

[squirrel]

Assume EVE Online isn't a viable answer, I would say that Lord of the Rings Online is better than WoW. Better graphics, better crafted world, better story, better classes.  Similar gameplay.  Somewhat similar achievement system (and even did it first).  The only thing you might be able to say WoW has the edge on is PvP, and I humbly suggest that if PvP is your game, than neither WoW or LOTRO is your best option anyway.

Out of the 4 betters, 3 are completely subjective. One may be correct from a technical standpoint.

I'm certain you can see where this particular detour will end.

What he said. Or, to use market terminology, 8.64 million people disagree with you. Choose your poison.

[Zzulo]

Most of those millions of people have not played other MMO's. I am drawing this conclusion entirely by anecdotal evidence from my peers 

[sidereal]

Every performance metric other than '# of times it dropped to desktop due to sb.exe' is subjective.  If subjectivity prevents you from comparing MMOs, then you're excluding talking about them at all.  And saying that WoW must be better because it has more subs and it has more subs because it's better is canonically circular.

LOTRO is (now) a very good game and in a blind taste test I'm pretty sure it'd be WoW's equal.  The difference is that WoW came first, it benefited from a huge network effect, LOTRO took too long to get good, and it launched when people were still infatuated with WoW.

First mover is a huge advantage in environments subject to network effects.  MySpace is in every way a shitty experience.  The interface is shitty, the performance is shitty, the design is shitty, everything is terrible.  But it dominated social networking because it as the first one to hit it big.  It took a site as good as Facebook to knock it off, and Facebook is about 800 times better than Myspace.  Similarly, Everquest was a brutal, dumb game, but it got big first and it took a game 10 times as good in WoW to knock it off.  To knock WoW off you can't be a little better.  You have to be 10 times as good.  And good luck with that.

[Rake]

a frontal assault on WoW is pointless. They have evolved the Hamster wheel of greed to a high enough level that even players who burned out after the first 6 months of play would be very surprised how nice it is to play these days.

Fortunately there are still a lot of people who want more social involvement in their games, or pvp types. Who, (even though they might play wow and enjoy it for what it is) would still prefer a game that satisfies this desire more than WoW does.

I'm pretty sure that a game could take a lot of players away from WoW by providing what WoW doesn't, but not by copying what WoW does.

Numbers wise I don't think of WoW as an 11.5 million subscriber game I tend to think of it as a 5 million sub game and the rest eat rice every meal and breathe smog.

[ghost]

LOTRO is (now) a very good game and in a blind taste test I'm pretty sure it'd be WoW's equal.  The difference is that WoW came first, it benefited from a huge network effect, LOTRO took too long to get good, and it launched when people were still infatuated with WoW.

I like LOTRO a lot and am really playing this exclusively now, however I have to admit that it seems a little less (and I don't know how else to describe this) accessible than WOW.  Somebody mentioned this above, but WOW has managed to be interesting to the non-MMO player, something the other MMOs have been unable to replicate.  Why is this?  I really don't know for sure, but have some theories.  One of which is that the crafting in WOW is easy yet tends to be interesting to the average Joe.  Also, the introductory questing in WOW is very straightforward and they have managed to drum up a pretty interesting story line from their previous games.  Another reason could be that the cartoony, fun spirit of WOW appeals more to the average user than the darkness in WAR, Eve and the seriousness of LOTRO. There is a whole lot more to this, however, than simply being in the right place at the right time.  Sure, luck played a bit of a role, but WOW wouldn't have had the sustainability that it has enjoyed if it wasn't a fairly high-quality venture.

[Delmania]

LOTRO is (now) a very good game and in a blind taste test I'm pretty sure it'd be WoW's equal.  The difference is that WoW came first, it benefited from a huge network effect, LOTRO took too long to get good, and it launched when people were still infatuated with WoW.

I like LOTRO a lot and am really playing this exclusively now, however I have to admit that it seems a little less (and I don't know how else to describe this) accessible than WOW.  Somebody mentioned this above, but WOW has managed to be interesting to the non-MMO player, something the other MMOs have been unable to replicate.  Why is this?  I really don't know for sure, but have some theories.  One of which is that the crafting in WOW is easy yet tends to be interesting to the average Joe.  Also, the introductory questing in WOW is very straightforward and they have managed to drum up a pretty interesting story line from their previous games.  Another reason could be that the cartoony, fun spirit of WOW appeals more to the average user than the darkness in WAR, Eve and the seriousness of LOTRO. There is a whole lot more to this, however, than simply being in the right place at the right time.  Sure, luck played a bit of a role, but WOW wouldn't have had the sustainability that it has enjoyed if it wasn't a fairly high-quality venture.

Before deploying WoW, Blizzard had developed a huge following with Starcraft, Warcraft, and the Diablo series, plus a reputation for just making fun games in general.  Those, combined with the fact that WoW's leveling is very accessible to anyone, managed to sends the game's playerbase into the stratosphere.  Hell, if they remove the cockblocks on gear and make it so you don't need to do the Arena for res gear, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

[Delmania]

They have evolved the Hamster wheel of greed to a high enough level that even players who burned out after the first 6 months of play would be very surprised how nice it is to play these days.

Endgame of WoW: kill bosses to get phat loot.
Endgame of Diablo II: kill bosses to get phat loot.

As much as people joke about purplez, BLizzard has a good precedent.