WoW announces record numbers

[HaemishM]

Why should there ever be penalties for pvping someone on a pvp server?

Because some fights aren't actually fights but the MMOG equivalent of kicking a crippled baby to take its candy?

Just a thought.

[personman]

Hmm - well glad I found out before all four of my chars got over L11.  Time to start over again on the RP server.  I *like* PvP but I still want the option to solo quests w/o having to relive UO Miner 1998.

[stray]

Shadowbane made me a bad person, I think. I just can't get worked up about these kind of things. Believe me though, enough players will be killing without impunity that Blizzard will eventually have to do something about it. Right or wrong, I don't know, but it's definitely not good business.

[Ganon]

Shadowbane made me a bad person, I think. I just can't get worked up about these kind of things. Believe me though, enough players will be killing without impunity that Blizzard will eventually have to do something about it. Right or wrong, I don't know, but it's definitely not good business.

Its taken me awhile to realize why pvp in MMOs is caught between a rock and a hard place.  WoW and SB nicely sum up the two extremes-

1.  SB- PvP has meaningful consequences.

2.  WoW- PvP has no consequences.


If you go route #1, you make PvP "meaningful through one or a bunch of features like exp loss/gain, item loot, being able to destroy cities, etc.  But when people lose when there is meaningful PvP, they feel sad and angry.  Less and less people therefore PvP.

If you go route #2, you circumvent the problems of #1, but after a perhaps slightly longer period of time people also see the shallowness of pointless deathmatching.  I was besieging the northern Astranaar bridge with a bunch of other Horde the other day against opponents roughly our level.  Just like when I when I play BF1942 or Wolfenstein: ET, it was fun for an hour or so to fight people that were back in the fray 20 seconds later.  The thought then presented itself:  if I want a deathmatch, why shouldn't I play BF 1942 where I don't have to spend 100 hours leveling up my character to be viable and then have to spend hours searching for people to pvp?


So in essence, we need meaningful pvp that nonetheless has no consequences.  And I want a flying pony that can take me to Disneyland on a rainbow highway.

[trias_e]

PvP needs some consequences, just not horrible ones.  I heard the idea tossed around that once you are killed x number of time in x amount of minutes in a contested zone that you get kicked out to a friendly graveyard.  I think thats a decent idea, allowing a group to get their shit together and kick people out of their area for a little while.  Not huge, but enough to make it worthwhile to actually try to PvP.

Copy pasting from my thoughts on this from corpnews:

I think they really need some sort of penalty to PvP death. I have killed people repeatedly who are trying to gank me while PvE'ing, and they just keep coming back. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you die to them, obviously they will still be there. If you kill them, they will be back in 3 minutes to gank you right after you pull.

I don't mind having to leave an area due to repeated deaths. It would definitely be worth it to be able to do the same to an enemy. If I really really want to PvE in an area, I should be able to scare the opposition away from coming back somehow, but there's just nothing scary about PvP whatsoever. Thats great from a competetive 5v5 situation, but bad for the PvE/PvP relationship.

...since death is entirely meaningless, its quite boring.

If someone doesn't want me to PvE in an area, I'll have to leave. There's no threat about "fighting" or death. The actual fighting itself is moot, and thats what is bothering me. For being a PvP server, the PvP means jack shit.

I love PvP, and I like having to stay on my toes. But after having one person kill me 5-6 times (and me kill him 10 times), it just gets old. Yeah I realize, I can just leave, but my whole point is I wish that forcing people out of a contested area that want to level had more to do with killing them and less to do with simply being present in that area.  That way I could actually fight back and have it matter.

[MrHat]

PvP needs some consequences, just not horrible ones.  I heard the idea tossed around that once you are killed x number of time in x amount of minutes in a contested zone that you get kicked out to a friendly graveyard.  I think thats a decent idea, allowing a group to get their shit together and kick people out of their area for a little while.  Not huge, but enough to make it worthwhile to actually try to PvP.

Copy pasting from my thoughts on this from corpnews:

I think they really need some sort of penalty to PvP death. I have killed people repeatedly who are trying to gank me while PvE'ing, and they just keep coming back. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you die to them, obviously they will still be there. If you kill them, they will be back in 3 minutes to gank you right after you pull.

I don't mind having to leave an area due to repeated deaths. It would definitely be worth it to be able to do the same to an enemy. If I really really want to PvE in an area, I should be able to scare the opposition away from coming back somehow, but there's just nothing scary about PvP whatsoever. Thats great from a competetive 5v5 situation, but bad for the PvE/PvP relationship.

...since death is entirely meaningless, its quite boring.

If someone doesn't want me to PvE in an area, I'll have to leave. There's no threat about "fighting" or death. The actual fighting itself is moot, and thats what is bothering me. For being a PvP server, the PvP means jack shit.

I love PvP, and I like having to stay on my toes. But after having one person kill me 5-6 times (and me kill him 10 times), it just gets old. Yeah I realize, I can just leave, but my whole point is I wish that forcing people out of a contested area that want to level had more to do with killing them and less to do with simply being present in that area.  That way I could actually fight back and have it matter.

Personally, I don't know why they took out the 10% durability loss from PvP deaths.  After a certain number of deaths, you have to find a friendly smith to repair your equipment, or else your useless.  And don't tell me that mages w/out equipment still rock, because I've killed my share of silly gnomes that had equipment, and they're not that bad.

The level difference seems to make a fairly large difference when it's 8+.      Red cons are still very very hard to kill solo, but that's why you announce it over /LocalDefense and get a few people to help.  If the higher levels lost durability per death and had to technically pay 8s each death, they would think twice about attacking that group of lowbies to kill their priest.

[sidereal]

enough players will be killing without impunity

Mr. Language Nazi says: "You mean with impunity"

1. SB- PvP has meaningful consequences.

2. WoW- PvP has no consequences.

That's basically the terrain these days, and the problems are as you've described them, but I don't think people are thinking outside the box enough.    "Pointless deathmatching" basically describes 99% of all online gaming, so that's pretty popular.  GW is more or less going this route and it looks promising.  The problem in MMORPG is that PvE is a certain style of play with certain expected mechanics, and PvP should be a completely other style of play with different risks and rewards.  But PvP is often implemented as "PvE against other people".  That just doesn't work.  The incentives are all different.

[Dark Vengeance]

Why should there ever be penalties for pvping someone on a pvp server?

Because some fights aren't actually fights but the MMOG equivalent of kicking a crippled baby to take its candy?

Just a thought.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Threash]

Why should there ever be penalties for pvping someone on a pvp server?

Because some fights aren't actually fights but the MMOG equivalent of kicking a crippled baby to take its candy?

Just a thought.

I get the feeling that you think that is somehow a bad thing? right now you don't even get the candy, you kick the crippled baby because he just happens to be there.  Remember this is consentual pvp, the moment you chose that (pvp) server you pretty much agreed to put your crippled baby ass right in the way of my boot.

[Paelos]

Why should there ever be penalties for pvping someone on a pvp server?

Because some fights aren't actually fights but the MMOG equivalent of kicking a crippled baby to take its candy?

Just a thought.

I get the feeling that you think that is somehow a bad thing? right now you don't even get the candy, you kick the crippled baby because he just happens to be there.  Remember this is consentual pvp, the moment you chose that (pvp) server you pretty much agreed to put your crippled baby ass right in the way of my boot.

You're defending the reality of the situation on a site of gamers that are pissed off at the status quo. I think you might want to reconsider the argument that we will gladly defend or incentivize the rights of @zzr@p3rs to kick babies because they can. Most of us realize that's not the intention of PvP, it's rather a horrible side effect of a ridiculously built system. We can pretty much agree that its that EXACT behavior that keeps people out of the system.

[HaemishM]

What Paelos said. People, despite what Abashi might think, DO NOT PAY TO BE VICTIMS. End of story. Whether they choose to be a victim or not, most, the majority of people who pay for a game won't pay to be a victim for long.

PVP is not supposed to be about victimization, it's supposed to be about competiton. And unfortunately, unless you de-incentivize killing the crippled baby (whether he gives juicy candy or not), or make sure no one is a crippled baby (for long), this kind of PVP won't be a mass market deal for long. The people who want competition will get tired of the catass cockmunches like those on Arhicmonde and move to another server, move to a regular server where they can choose to be a victim or not, or they will quit, taking their money out of the system.

As for SB having consequences, it does until either one group takes over the server and makes PVP into a deathmatch/capture the flag, or there are no controls and the losers quit, the winners get bored and quit and server populations are lower than Paris Hilton's knees on a Saturday night.

WoW's one big problem with item durability is that NOTHING REALLY WEARS OUT. There is no permanent durability loss, so dying and having to repair is only a gold sink. You'll never lose the item permanently that I know of. That creates the same kind of problem as in EQ where items inflate in price for a short while then deflate for good. Eventually, everyone will have more than enough money that deaths will be meaningless.

[Kageru]

Most PvP people (in the MMORPG context) are hopelessly retarded and the main purpose of a PvP server is to keep them the hell away. Anyone who didn't see that the only difference between the servers is that one allows PvP in zones designed explicitly for PvE progression didn't think it through. Overlapping PvE and PvP challenges are *primarily* of advantage to griefers.

However the PvP challenge mentioned seems possible as long as you use instances as a mechanism. That way death can have meaning within the instance, without permanently damaging the global context. This is effectively what counter-strike did with its no respawn policy. So for example start up an instanced battlefield (if they ever get them finished). On death your character is blocked from the instance for the duration of that battle. All of a sudden watching an ally fall is bad news, which encourages teamwork, while watching an enemy attack get routed feels like victory. You'd also add some goal so that power advantage could be used to end the game.

And needless to say this form of PvP will be available on both servers, because it doesn't require polluting the entire game-world.

[stray]

Most PvP people (in the MMORPG context) are hopelessly retarded and the main purpose of a PvP server is to keep them the hell away.

Funny, I always thought it took an attentive mind, careful planning, and a cool head to enjoy PvP....All signs of intelligence. Didn't know all I had to do was be retarded. Thanks! That makes it much easier for me.

Also worth mentioning is that the "PvP" population (surprisingly) outnumbers the "Normal" population in this game. I just don't think it's a possiblity that all of those people are retarded. If you're the kind of person who likes to think of that many people in that way, then I'd say you're the one people need to stay away from.

Anyways, I do understand that PvP isn't perfect in MMOG's, but the idea of instanced battles is stupid. Since these are also virtual worlds, and we're all so concerned about immersion and whatnot (or at least we should be), then that idea needs to be thrown out. Instanced dungeons are bad enough. No need to castrate the genre any further.

[Margalis]

I kind of mentioned this in the other thread on PvP in MMORPGs, but yeah I think for people who are looking for competitve tests of skills battleground-type things will be where it's at, while open PvP servers are more for wild-west type scenarios.

To me getting together a band of like minded people, strategizing, practicing and fighting in a battleground type setting sounds fun - getting ganked by someone 20+ my level while trying to kill my 14th Ultra Wonder Harpy doesn't.

The people who say "why get penalized for PvP on a PvP server" don't get that some people look at PvP as a competitive endeavor. Killing someone who can barely fight back is not competitive - the two are really not very related and it's unfortunate they both fall under the generic PvP banner.

[stray]

The people who say "why get penalized for PvP on a PvP server" don't get that some people look at PvP as a competitive endeavor. Killing someone who can barely fight back is not competitive - the two are really not very related and it's unfortunate they both fall under the generic PvP banner.

I agree, but for slightly different reasons. Since I've been chiming on about sticking true to the "world" etc.., I'll say that not penalizing is a mistake just in that context.

I know that if I witnessed a friend kick some little kid's ass, I'd beat the fuck out of him and never speak to him again. As well as turn everyone else against him. Why shouldn't the same thing happen with a society of Orcs?  Dishonor is never a valued trait, whether you're good or evil. The game should reflect that reality.

BTW I'm referring to Blizzard's original idea of having a "negative" reputation. So many lowbie kills and even your own faction's NPC's and Vendors will cut you off, on top of you being flagged for PvP on both sides.

[Paelos]

BTW I'm referring to Blizzard's original idea of having a "negative" reputation. So many lowbie kills and even your own faction's NPC's and Vendors will cut you off, on top of you being flagged for PvP on both sides.

The reason I think they scrapped that idea is because that's an incentive to the type of person that would be hacking up lowbies in the first place. They could attain this "Outlaw" status after griefing the population. It's basically playing right into their hands of being recognized for their bad behavior.

[Sky]

PVP is not supposed to be about victimization, it's supposed to be about competiton

Words of wisdom, Lloyd. Words of wisdom.

That's the line that seperates a PVPer from a PK, in my book. Unfortunately, too few seem to understand this fundamental difference, and I'm sorry about what that says about their character.

[El Gallo]

The people who say "why get penalized for PvP on a PvP server" don't get that some people look at PvP as a competitive endeavor. Killing someone who can barely fight back is not competitive - the two are really not very related and it's unfortunate they both fall under the generic PvP banner.

Blizz's biggest mistake was pushing the game out without battlefields.  That way, people who want competitive PvP without the AzzR4pInG crap could play on a regular server and hit the battlefields, and leave the cesspool servers to bonedood and platedood.