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Author Topic: Super Bowl XLIII  (Read 13520 times)
WayAbvPar
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Reply #35 on: February 03, 2009, 12:27:37 PM

Quote
Referees were absolutely awful the entire game, on both sides.  The Cardinals got it a little worse.  Also, I can't believe the last play of the game wasn't reviewed.

Amen. Biggest game of the year and the refs were just bumbling idiots.

Quote
I thought the refs did a great job with the game. None of the replay calls were wrong - and the ones that were in question really could have gone either way but just weren't conclusive. They actually DID review that last play by Warner and called it a fumble, and again, I could have seen that one go either way as well.

My problem with them was that they had to be reviewed so many times on obvious calls. It seemed that whatever the correct call was, they defaulted the other direction and waited for replay to fix it.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Nebu
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Reply #36 on: February 03, 2009, 01:56:49 PM

My opinion is going to be very unpopular here...

Football at the NFL level is a game that moves REALLY FUCKING FAST.  The fact that these refs make the correct call even half of the time is a pretty amazing example of their ability.  So... take a fast game, add a bajillion viewers second guessing you under an electron microscope, and you'll have barely a glimpse at what it's like to do the job of a ref. 

If you want to eliminate the role of the refs, do what my old coach always told us in college: Play well enough to take the refs out of the equation. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:03:10 PM by Nebu »

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Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 02:01:31 PM

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HaemishM
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Reply #38 on: February 03, 2009, 02:11:01 PM

My opinion is going to be very unpopular here...

Football at the NFL level is a game that moves REALLY FUCKING FAST.  The fact that these refs make the correct call even half of the time is a pretty amazing example of their ability.  So... take a fast game, add a bajillion viewers second guessing you under an electron microscope, and you'll have barely a glimpse at what it's like to do the job of a ref. 

If you want to eliminate the role of the refs, do what my old coach always told us in college: Play well enough to take the refs out of the equation. 

Quote
It seems logical that professional referees would be paid as well as professional sport players. This is not the case. A typical referee makes between $2,000-4,000 per NFL game. Remember that this is a seasonal sport that is only played from September to December. Many referees officiate as a part-time job. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median salary for a referee was $29,850 in 2007.

Refs make shit for money, and it's not even their main profession. We essentially have highly trained amateurs in charge of these games. You get what you pay for.

Of course, the fact that the NFL will not install and use their OWN cameras for instant replay instead of relying on the TV broadcast cameras is also ridonkulus.

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Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 03:19:22 PM


If you want to eliminate the role of the refs, do what my old coach always told us in college: Play well enough to take the refs out of the equation. 

Was that before or after he told you about the new fangled "forward pass"?

-Rasix
WayAbvPar
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Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 03:54:34 PM

The refs do get quite a bit right, but forcing coaches to use challenges on plays that everyone in the stadium, tv audience, and inner solar system see one way, but the 7 guys in charge see another (or don't see at all and guess) drives me up the fucking wall. Good example of the good is the last TD- I was not too sure Holmes got both feet inbounds, but the refs made the right call. The Warner fumble at the end, otoh, they missed the call. No way you can tell me they did a thorough review before they let Pittsburgh snap the ball either. Basic easy reviews take 5 minutes at least, but they can bang out a change of possession call with 30 seconds left in a 4 point Super Bowl in 40 seconds? Bullshit.

Another problem with the replay system is they are only as good as A) the replay angles and B) th call made on the field. Add more cameras, have an extra live ref on the sidelines watching the live TV feed, whatever. Make it better. Be seamless and invisible, not part of the story.

Don't even get me started on basketball refs. They make even Pac-10 football officials look positively competent.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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El Gallo
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Reply #41 on: February 03, 2009, 04:38:48 PM

The Warner fumble at the end, otoh, they missed the call. No way you can tell me they did a thorough review before they let Pittsburgh snap the ball either. Basic easy reviews take 5 minutes at least, but they can bang out a change of possession call with 30 seconds left in a 4 point Super Bowl in 40 seconds? Bullshit.

Well, most of the time it takes to review a play is the ref seeing the flag, talking to the coach, moseying over to the screen, and moseying back to the center of the field to make the call.  The actual review of the play does not last very long (I think there is a rule capping the time "under the hood" at a minute or so).

In the last 2 minutes, every play is reviewed by officials in the booth as they happen.  I'm not sure if the rule is that the booth official buzzes down when he thinks it is conceivable that a coach might have thrown a challenge flag or if he thinks there is some reason to think that the play should be overturned or what.  Looking at the slow motion replay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2cQnytZ90 it looks to me that they got it right (qb lost control of ball before throw started) and certainly don't see indisputable evidence to overturn the call on the field.

However, I do think that this is a rule that causes too much fucking grief, and should've been changed to a bright-line rule after the tuck rule debacle.  I propose this: if the ball doesn't pass the line of scrimmage (or touch a legal receiver before hitting the ground), it's a fumble.  Sure it makes wildly misthrown screen passes more dangerous, but the "was it going forward? was it re-tucked? oh may god it looks like one pixel may have moved slightly parallel to the line of scrimmage before coming completely out? but did he have full control of the ball at that point blah blah blah" nonsense that seems to happen way too often.

The only obvious bad call I remember was the incomplete pass incorrectly ruled as a fumble by warner early in the 3rd, which cost Arizona a challenge (they still had one left, but would have had either one or two left depending on whether the hypothetical "next challenge" by the Cards would have been successful or not).   The touchdown that was overturned on the steelers' first drive turned out to be an incorrect call, but I would not call it a bad call because it was pretty close (the kind of play replay is designed/needed to get right consistently).

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Reply #42 on: February 04, 2009, 08:33:19 AM

On the ref calls:

According to NFL officials head, who was on NFL network to explain the calls and non-calls, said this…

* …on the 1st half TD run, officials made correct call but even if Harrison was tackled before end zone, Steelers would have gotten another play since there was a offensive penalty on the play. No mention was made, however, that Fitzgerald ran out of bounds 20-30 yards before making tackle — don't know what throwing that into the mix would result in…'

*…officials simply didn't see Holmes "using the ball as a prop" since it happened so long after the TD catch but they should have flagged him for that, according to the rules.

* …the Warner fumble at the end of the game was booth reviewed. Don't know if the NFL officials guy is just covering up, but he said it was indeed looked at upstairs w/enough time to judge…

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Paelos
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Reply #43 on: February 04, 2009, 10:00:13 AM

I don't get why people think the fumble at the end was a pass. Arm goes back, arm gets hit, ball goes forward because of hit.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #44 on: February 05, 2009, 10:11:33 AM

I have seen almost identical plays called forward passes more times than I can count.

Quote
  I propose this: if the ball doesn't pass the line of scrimmage (or touch a legal receiver before hitting the ground), it's a fumble.  Sure it makes wildly misthrown screen passes more dangerous, but the "was it going forward? was it re-tucked? oh may god it looks like one pixel may have moved slightly parallel to the line of scrimmage before coming completely out? but did he have full control of the ball at that point blah blah blah" nonsense that seems to happen way too often.

I think that is a fantastic idea. Takes the guesswork out of it, and makes for a more exciting game.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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cmlancas
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Reply #45 on: February 16, 2009, 04:46:49 AM

I know I'm necroposting a bit here, but I'm glad there's a little love for the referees in this thread.  I used to think baseball and football refereeing was cake and give shit to refs every chance I got, but really, there's way more to it than just calling balls/strikes/penalties/downs.  Ever since I've started reffing, I've understood just how difficult it is, and what a PITA coaches/fans/et al can be.  I know I've blown my share of calls, and it's been in games for ages eight to fourteen.  Fuck if I could make a call for grown men running 4.2 40s.

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Mandrel
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Reply #46 on: February 21, 2009, 07:32:32 PM

This is a Billion dollar industry, and they can't bother to have full time, committed referees?  Bullshit.
Paelos
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Reply #47 on: February 22, 2009, 10:09:57 AM

This is a Billion dollar industry, and they can't bother to have full time, committed referees?  Bullshit.

They could, but I don't think they believe the extra money would be worth the return. Would they be THAT much better if they were full-time? Maybe some, but I still think there are too many bang-bang plays in the NFL to expect them to get everything right on the field.

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HaemishM
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Reply #48 on: February 22, 2009, 10:57:49 AM

Maybe some, but I still think there are too many bang-bang plays in the NFL to expect them to get everything right on the field.

Which is what replay is supposed to help, getting it right. The NFL seriously needs professional refs.

Paelos
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Reply #49 on: February 22, 2009, 12:22:57 PM

Maybe some, but I still think there are too many bang-bang plays in the NFL to expect them to get everything right on the field.

Which is what replay is supposed to help, getting it right. The NFL seriously needs professional refs.

I think they just need to change the "debatable = call on the field" rule. The reason being is that refs often let plays go that might or might not be fumbles because they know once they blow the whistle, review is not an option anymore. That means that if it's remotely questionable, the 50/50 is always going to be fumble, which skews the game.

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