Come help save mud history

[Raph]

http://mud.wikia.com/wiki/MUD_Wiki

It exists because Wikipedia's citation standards are just about impossible for muds to meet.

I know a lot of you were on muds. And they tie directly to MMOs (so don't move this post, Schild!)

[schild]

Har. I would've moved it here from PC/Console gaming.

That said, MUD history is largely heresay. Of course it's impossible to prove and meet the wikipedia criteria. It was all people talking online and getting random things done. There's no way to even figure out if Bartle's archetypes actually came from his mind or someone else. It's all... largely impossible to prove accurate. In other words, it's a fairly epic, if overly nostalgic project.

But I will predict something: This will be the most rose-colored wiki of all time.

[Goreschach]

MUD history is the single largest reason for why the MMO industry is the shitfest it is today. Once memory of these nerd-havens dies off, then maybe we can all move on to actually playing massively multiplayer online videogames and leave this old-world diku shit behind.

[Merusk]

So what you're saying is you didn't actually play MUDs and everything you know about them has been gleaned from Vault Network rants.  Good to know.

[Triforcer]

Who is going to write the article about why Bruce shut down FurryMUCK in 1991?   

[Goreschach]

So what you're saying is you didn't actually play MUDs and everything you know about them has been gleaned from Vault Network rants.  Good to know.

If it's any consolation, I did log into a couple for probably a few hours/minutes. Is there some kind of rite of passage time allotment before you get to point out that something sucks? At any rate, anybody who has played MMO's in the past decade could give you the general idea behind them, because MMO's have been rehashing those same basic ideas over and over. MUD's were a small niche based around an inherently poor design and modern MMO's are being built on top of them not because they were ever a good idea, but simply because they were there first.

[JWIV]

So what you're saying is you didn't actually play MUDs and everything you know about them has been gleaned from Vault Network rants.  Good to know.

If it's any consolation, I did log into a couple for probably a few hours/minutes. Is there some kind of rite of passage time allotment before you get to point out that something sucks? At any rate, anybody who has played MMO's in the past decade could give you the general idea behind them, because MMO's have been rehashing those same basic ideas over and over. MUD's were a small niche based around an inherently poor design and modern MMO's are being built on top of them not because they were ever a good idea, but simply because they were there first.

Uh.  No.

The ENTIRE god damn point is that WITHOUT MUDs, you most likely would NEVER had a MMO.  The genesis of the fucking idea of making MMO's was a bunch of mudders going let's make my favorite mud but with graphics.  Voila.    MMO's are a direct descendant and an iterative, not revolutionary development of text based mudding.

[DLRiley]

Yet somehow we still get crap, though its nice to know its not revolutionary crap but more intentional passes at developing crap.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, this probably isn't the thread Raph hoped for.

[Venkman]

Goreschach: the history of MUDs is not why we have these issues. It's ignoring that history which is the root problem. The only "blame" to be cast at developers is that they didn't evolve with the industry in that the wrong types of things were prioritized against a misunderstanding of contemporary consumer expectations.

[Raph]

There's no way to even figure out if Bartle's archetypes actually came from his mind or someone else.

Actually, his article first appeared in an academic peer-reviewed journal. So it actually meets a regular encyclopedia's criteria for citation and credit. :)

It's all... largely impossible to prove accurate. In other words, it's a fairly epic, if overly nostalgic project.

But I will predict something: This will be the most rose-colored wiki of all time.

I agree that the rose-colors will be challenging to fight off. My main interest is in history, particularly design and social history. You can look at the LegendMUD article to see the way I cast it.

That said, there are a LOT of sources out there which should help establish quite a lot in a fairly evenhanded manner. It will just take some scholarship.

[Raph]

MUD history is the single largest reason for why the MMO industry is the shitfest it is today. Once memory of these nerd-havens dies off, then maybe we can all move on to actually playing massively multiplayer online videogames and leave this old-world diku shit behind.

I would have said that ignoring mud history is a bigger cause. :P

[Raph]

Yeah, this probably isn't the thread Raph hoped for.

That's OK. You (the general you) mostly hope for more iterative crap. ;)

[Murgos]

C-C-C-Combo Breaker   

[Draegan]

If I could not be lazy I could write up a thing on SojournMUD Pre/Post 1st Wipe, the split to Toril/Duris and the little known DarkoverMUD.  I could also discuss Owen Emlen's Mid Point Void, the derivation to 2 and Lands of Chaos, ROP and a few others that I was a part of making.

Then again I'm lazy.

[Merusk]

MUD history is the single largest reason for why the MMO industry is the shitfest it is today. Once memory of these nerd-havens dies off, then maybe we can all move on to actually playing massively multiplayer online videogames and leave this old-world diku shit behind.

I would have said that ignoring mud history is a bigger cause. :P

This.

You see, Gore, if you knew MUD history or devs knew it then there would be this understanding that SO MANY of the current 'problems' came up in the past and had different resolutions.  Your implication that all MUDs were DIKU or even the DIKU-using ones were at all similar shows your level of misunderstanding of what was going on in them.

Not all MUDs were combat-centric.
Not all MUDs were fantasy-based HP slugfests.
Not all MUDs were DIKU (or Circle or ROM).
Not all MUDs used levels.

There were some damn innovative ideas and game systems that have been ignored out there in MUDs.  Primarily because the ONE 3-d game that was first called "wildly successful" stole freely from a stock codebase that was 10 years behind the times when its 3-d version released.   All the 3-d guys after that have stolen freely from it instead of looking to history and seeing what other systems they could have branched off from or implemented.

Yeah, this probably isn't the thread Raph hoped for.

That's OK. You (the general you) mostly hope for more iterative crap. ;)

Of course we do, its what we know.    

If someone were to give us an alternate finished and complete on day 1 instead of buggy and half-assed folks will pick it up.  AOC was on the road to actually realizing part of this with the way its combat worked, but Funcom failed to deliver a finished product, again. (No surprise to me.)  

[Lantyssa]

Not to mention, many people such as myself who programmed for years on a DIKU, want something different.  Been there.  Coded that.

It raises my hackles that something I was working on as a hobby in 1992 is still basically the same nearly twenty years later.  And people are paid big bucks to copy it.

[Draegan]

Not to mention, many people such as myself who programmed for years on a DIKU, want something different.  Been there.  Coded that.

It raises my hackles that something I was working on as a hobby in 1992 is still basically the same nearly twenty years later.  And people are paid big bucks to copy it.

I loved my hobby of world creating in MUDs.  Always tried to create areas and world that looked and felt good but offered practicality and allowed the game design to work.  And I was a teenager. Now people get to do it, get paid, and they suck at it... most of the time.  See everything WAR.  Terrible terrible world design.  Fucking Terrible.

[FatuousTwat]

No MajorMUD article? This wiki is dead to me.

[sidereal]

Fun.  I added an entry on softcode, chock full of Weasel Words and missing citations. I might hover around and touch up the MU* branch of the family tree.  Mostly MUSHcode and the Battletech servers.  Maybe I'll even turn over the rock under which hides the worms of the World of Darkness  branch of the MUSH/MUX family.

[Draegan]

No MajorMUD article? This wiki is dead to me.

You write up MajorMUD and I'll write up Tele-Arena.

Bonus Points, show me where the Minotaur is and where the Cyclops is along with the Bronze, Copper, Iron keys.  No cheating!

Code:

          [v] down to Dungeon Level 2
                                                                 # (Bronze
                                                              [x]    Door)
                                                               |
                                                              [ ]
                                                             /
                               up to  [ ]-[ ]             [ ]
                              Town 1 #(Iron) \             |
                      [ ]-[ ]-[ ]-[^] (Door)  [ ]-[ ]     [ ]
                     /             |                 \   /
                  [ ]             [ ]                 [ ]
                   |                 \
                  [ ]                 [ ]-[ ]
                   |                         \ 
                  [x]                         [v]-[^]  
                     # (Copper Door)
        [ ]           [ ]
       /                 \
    [ ]                   [T] Spike Trap                      [ ]
     | \__  Bug              \                               /   \
     |    \                   [ ]                 [ ]     [ ]     [ ]
     |     v                   | Brass Door      /   \   /         |
    [ ]---[ ]            Ogre [x]#[ ]         [ ]     [ ]         [ ]
   /         \    (Brass Key)/ |     \       /         |
[ ]           [ ]         [ ] [ ]     [ ]-[ ]         [ ]        
                 \       /       \           \           \
                  [ ]-[ ]         [ ]         [ ]         [x]  
                       |           |                          
                      [ ]         [ ]
                     /           /   \
                  [ ]         [ ]     [ ]
                                         \
                                          [ ]

[schild]

That map isn't complete.

Edit: Or rather, you've asked a trick question in retrospect.

[Draegan]

Yes it is.  What's missing is the Down and further on from the bronze door.

Code:

     [ ]
                                        /   \
                                     [ ]     [ ]
                                    /         |
                                 [ ]         [ ]         up to
                                            /       Dungeon Level 1 
                                         [ ]             [^x] Troll
                                        /                 |
                                     [ ]                 [ ]
                                      |                 /
                                     [ ]             [ ]
                       Pit Trap         \           /
                     [ ]-[T]-[ ]         [ ]     [ ]
                      |         \           \   /
             Chimera [x]         [ ]         [x] Ogre
                      |             \       /
                     [ ]             [ ]-[ ]
                    /
                 [ ]
                    \
                     [ ]
                        \
                         [ ]                         [ ]-[ ]
                          |                         /       \
                         [ ]                     [ ]         [x] Wild Boar
                        /   \                   /
     Cyclops [x]-[ ]-[ ]     [ ]-[ ]     [ ]-[ ]
   (Silver Key) \                   \   /       \
                 [ ]                 [ ]         [ ]
                    \                           /
                     [ ]                     [ ]
                    /                       /
                 [ ]                     [ ]
                /                         |
             [ ]                         [T] Poison Trap
            /                             |
         [ ]         [ ]                 [ ]
        /           /                     # Silver Door
     [ ]         [ ]               Stone [x] 
        \       /                 Giantess  \       down to
         [ ]-[ ]                     (2)     [v] Dungeon Level 3

[schild]

It's a trick question because there's two cyclops mobs on the first map.

[Soln]

this is worthwhile so I'll take a look.

If people are more worried about current and future VW designs, then this archive fever should help.  Because practically every single question or design problem has been done to death through MUD's already (MUDDev Archive).  Permadeath anyone?

[Slyfeind]

That's OK. You (the general you) mostly hope for more iterative crap. ;)

Of course we do, its what we know.    

Ugh. Whenever I go MUD hopping, I always gravitate towards the DIKU. If something's even slightly different from bashing monsters and geting loot, I get confused and log off. I'm such a victim.

[Draegan]

It's a trick question because there's two cyclops mobs on the first map.

Actually 3!

[schild]

It's a trick question because there's two cyclops mobs on the first map.

Actually 3!

Two that drop keys.

Anyway, IRC.

[WindupAtheist]

Gore may not be right exactly, but he's bitching from that same stomach-lurching feeling that I get whenever a lot of MUD talk kicks up. Namely the feeling that nobody drawing from the usual MUD circles is ever going to develop anything worth playing ever again. You start talking about MUDs, and without being able to help it I immediately start thinking about how punishing EQ was, and how hard UO tried to slit its own throat, and how much ass SWG sucked, and so forth. I think of a bunch of turn of the century monstrosities that achieved modest success in spite of themselves, and because there wasn't anything else around.

Forced grouping promotes socialization.
The PKs are only winning because they're more organized.
Hey forced downtime promotes socialization too.
No seriously adding a PK switch would compromise my woooorld.

Remembering that we didn't get a non-ass-scented MMO until a celebrated developer of single player and small-scale multiplayer games came along and exactly copied all their ideas, minus the dumbest parts and plus professional production values, doesn't help.

[Soln]

biggest point for me is that MMO's/VW's didn't begin and end with WoW.  Hard to believe, but there are some kids and adults who see everything in terms of WoW and no other game.  Seriously.  That alone makes MUDs and early history worth remembering.  Not because WoW is bad, but because it's not everything.  And shouldn't be.

[Slyfeind]

biggest point for me is that MMO's/VW's didn't begin and end with WoW.  Hard to believe, but there are some kids and adults who see everything in terms of WoW and no other game.  Seriously.  That alone makes MUDs and early history worth remembering.  Not because WoW is bad, but because it's not everything.  And shouldn't be.

I remember when a friend of mine went to pick up Pirates of the Burning Sea when it first came out. The attendant pointed her to WoW. He literally could not comprehend any other online game.

[DLRiley]

To imply that someone f13 doesn't think there was online games before WoW is stupid. But even if you truly want to make that point you'll be implying that the pre-WoW mmo-industry was at some point in time fun. Mmorpg's have been trash before WoW and are still trash 11 million subs later.

[Raph]

Fun.  I added an entry on softcode, chock full of Weasel Words and missing citations. I might hover around and touch up the MU* branch of the family tree.  Mostly MUSHcode and the Battletech servers.  Maybe I'll even turn over the rock under which hides the worms of the World of Darkness  branch of the MUSH/MUX family.

That was you? I left a note saying "hmm" basically. The line between softcode & scripting is interesting and should be clarified. :)

[Raph]

Gore may not be right exactly, but he's bitching from that same stomach-lurching feeling that I get whenever a lot of MUD talk kicks up. Namely the feeling that nobody drawing from the usual MUD circles is ever going to develop anything worth playing ever again. You start talking about MUDs, and without being able to help it I immediately start thinking about how punishing EQ was, and how hard UO tried to slit its own throat, and how much ass SWG sucked, and so forth. I think of a bunch of turn of the century monstrosities that achieved modest success in spite of themselves, and because there wasn't anything else around.

Forced grouping promotes socialization.
The PKs are only winning because they're more organized.
Hey forced downtime promotes socialization too.
No seriously adding a PK switch would compromise my woooorld.

Remembering that we didn't get a non-ass-scented MMO until a celebrated developer of single player and small-scale multiplayer games came along and exactly copied all their ideas, minus the dumbest parts and plus professional production values, doesn't help.

Forced downtime DOES promote socialization. You just don't care. There's a difference. :) (It's been widely observed -- not just by me! -- that WoW is one of the least social virtual worlds ever made).

Look, of course things have evolved. But evolution and progress are not synonymous. Losing sight of where we have been is a mistake, and there are many alternate paths of evolution that are compeltely orthogonal to those four observations.

[Matt]

Your implication that all MUDs were DIKU or even the DIKU-using ones were at all similar shows your level of misunderstanding of what was going on in them.

Not all MUDs were combat-centric.
Not all MUDs were fantasy-based HP slugfests.
Not all MUDs were DIKU (or Circle or ROM).
Not all MUDs used levels.

There were some damn innovative ideas and game systems that have been ignored out there in MUDs.  Primarily because the ONE 3-d game that was first called "wildly successful" stole freely from a stock codebase that was 10 years behind the times when its 3-d version released.   All the 3-d guys after that have stolen freely from it instead of looking to history and seeing what other systems they could have branched off from or implemented.

No need to use the past tense. There are still hundreds of MUDs out there, though the overall market for text MUDs has, unsurprisingly, shrunken. The market for them peaked sometime in the early part of this millenium.

The funny thing is that I rarely see a game feature asked for by MMO fans that isn't already available in MUDs, though I fully understand why MUDs are of no interest to most game players. Also worth pointing out that of the most popular MUDs, only one is DIKU-based.

--matt