So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)

[K9]

In other news, I did a 105 kg clean and press today, which is a new best.  Been a long time since I even attempted more than 95 kg, so I wasn't sure what to suspect.  Yay!

That's awesome! I managed to clean 110kg the other day, but I couldn't contemplate pressing that for a second. I don't know how people do it, my wrists ache at the mere thought of it.

[Cyrrex]

I used to be intimidated by the press portion as well, but now I'm pretty sure I will be able to press just about whatever I can clean.  That said, I am a bit nervous about trying to clean 110 kg...failing it means dropping it on the floor, and I am not working out in a place where that would be okay.

[K9]

I know the feeling, it's a real limitation past the point where you're doing a weight you could safely row back down if you needed. Thankfully I have a platform to train on.

Judging by what you have posted in the past, I get the impression that your shoulder strength is a long way ahead of everything else you do, so that might explain the press? As it is I can only press about 80kg max from the front, and that absolutely murders my wrist, and it's 30kg less than I can clean. Putting the two together seems like a recipe for pain and disaster.

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, for whatever reason my shoulders (all sections of the delts) are proportionally stronger than most of my other bits.  My traps too, I think.  Let's be clear that I am talking with push presses with the above, though, with just a bit of leg drive.  I sure as shit can't do a straight military press with that much weight.

That said, it is kind of strange watching other people at the gym doing plain old military presses.  I see some pretty big guys struggle like hell to do reps with 45 or 50 kg, and I can't for the life of me figure out why.  I think I could toss 45 halfway across the room. 

[bhodi]

Yeah, I'm curious about this now too. I used to be able to go nearly a minute. Gonna try this on Saturday.

Was talking about this with my climbing buddy - are you strong enough in your quads that you can can you squat on your heels, put one leg out in front, and then stand up slowly on one leg? Some friends were saying how their legs are plenty strong, and I was trying to explain that half of climbing is standing up on one foot, and if they can't do it unaided, they are forced into using arms when they shouldn't need to.

[DraconianOne]

Yeah, I'm curious about this now too. I used to be able to go nearly a minute. Gonna try this on Saturday.

Was talking about this with my climbing buddy - are you strong enough in your quads that you can can you squat on your heels, put one leg out in front, and then stand up slowly on one leg? Some friends were saying how their legs are plenty strong, and I was trying to explain that half of climbing is standing up on one foot, and if they can't do it unaided, they are forced into using arms when they shouldn't need to.

Does the same apply to doing single leg squats? I ask because the problem a lot of people have with pistol squats is mobility and strength of the hip flexor (ie - not being able to keep the one leg out in front of them) rather than having the quad strength to do single leg squats with a flexed knee. Also, ankle strength has a big impact on 1-leg squats as well. (I see this a lot with road runners going to trail - most of them suffer because they're ankle ligaments aren't strong enough. I don't know enough about the mechanics of climbing to know how similar it is as I don't climb much owing to a: not liking heights and b: my fallback excuse of a knackered finger)

In other news, I passed my level 3 Personal Trainer assessment today and am finally a qualified fitness professional. I'd like to thank you heavy lifting guys too because some of what you've discussed regarding posture and form came in handy so cheers!

tl;dr - I am now officially part of the problem. 

[Yoru]

Yeah, I'm curious about this now too. I used to be able to go nearly a minute. Gonna try this on Saturday.

Was talking about this with my climbing buddy - are you strong enough in your quads that you can can you squat on your heels, put one leg out in front, and then stand up slowly on one leg? Some friends were saying how their legs are plenty strong, and I was trying to explain that half of climbing is standing up on one foot, and if they can't do it unaided, they are forced into using arms when they shouldn't need to.

Just tried that, it was pretty easy. Lower-body strength is something most climbers don't get into for the first year, particularly men, due to the instinctual over-reliance on finger and arm strength. I expect just being able to do a one-legged bodyweight squat is sufficient, perhaps with some added weight to simulate the disadvantaged position you're in.

It's far more important that they learn how to use their feet and which parts of the foot to use for maximum strength. Far too many newbies use their tiptoes or, god forbid, the ball/heel of the foot.

Also, did the straight-arm hang test in the middle of my usual bench/squat routine today: 41.91sec for the left arm, 38.65 for the right. I could probably go a few seconds longer on a rock simulator, my hands were sweating like crazy towards the end, which didn't help.

Needs work before the summer bouldering season, at least.

[K9]

That's pretty damn impressive, grats.

My new favourite thing is turkish getups. I have gone from 20kg for doubles on each side to 35kg for singles in about two weeks. Looking to get up to 50kg in the nxt month or so hopefully. Tried doing them with the short olympic bar and only 12.5 kg of total weight, it was a LOT harder. Oddly it wasn't hard on the wrist, but it absolutely hammered my deltoids, presumably because it moves around a lot more. Two things I have learned:

1) When getting your leg under you it is better to bus your hips up using both feet then slide your leg under than try push up just using one arm and one leg and swing your other leg under.

2) At low weights the upwards motion is the more difficult part of the exercise, as the weight goes up, it is coming down under control which becomes the hardest part.

Anyhow, loving these lifts and how they really tax you. Doing a decent set will leave me sweating and out of breath, which I usually only get with the olympic lifts.

[Cyrrex]

On the subject of the pistol squats, and to all "feats of strength" to a certain degree, we should all keep in mind how important nervous system and neural adaptions are and how much they come into play.  It is very plausible that somebody who can do a traditional squat with 100kg (plus body weight) on his back would struggle to do an unweighted pistol squat, despite the fact that it is less than half of the total load on a single leg and should mathematically totally be able to do one.  Performing a pistol squat requires a pretty specific recruitment of muscles that are probably quite unique to that movement.  The same is true to the traditional squat itself.  As I have documented further up in the thread, my own squat has improved by something close to 30% in the last couple of months, and that sure as shit isn't due exclusively to muscle growth.  I daresay most of that has to do with my nervous system learning to recruit more overall muscle for the work.  In essence, that is the whole point of compound movements in the first place.

That said, I think a super powerful squat guy like Climbjtree has a better path to learning a pistol squat than a climber or crossfit counterpart would have in learning to squat 400 pounds.  Pure raw strength gives and advantage.  Body weight to relative strength is obviously hugely important for some of these things too, I think that probably goes without saying.

[K9]

New curious question; how many pullups/chinups can you do in a single set, fresh?

I think I'd be doing well to do 12 strict ones (arms locked at the bottom, full range of motion, no kipping), but I figure climbers would be able to do more than that. I suspect that unlike pushups though, pullups plateau quite hard, and have some nasty diminishing returns on the number you can do before failure.

[Nebu]

New curious question; how many pullups/chinups can you do in a single set, fresh?

Wide grip? Neutral? Pullups or chinups? 

My numbers for all 4 are quite different.  I can do 20 neutral position but only about 10 wide grip.

[K9]

Whatever maximises the number you can do I guess; I can never remember which one is chin ups and which one is pull ups, I know palms in is easier. For reference I'm doing neutral grip chins, shoulder-width apart. Full hang with a pause at the bottom.

No kipping or taking your hands off the bar.

[Nebu]

I don't kip, but I don't fully extend either.  I don't want the extra arm work as I do pull ups/chins mostly for shoulder and back work.

[Cyrrex]

I think I have probably done 20 before, palms facing or neutral.  Changes a lot depening on body weight.  I bet the climbers around here will skunk us on these.  Like Nebu, I don't usually extend all the way...except for maybe the last 2 or 3 reps, but that is mostly just to take a slight breather.  Honestly, I don't usually do these for max reps per set.  I would prefer, for example, 10 sets of 8, or even better would be doing fewer reps of weighted chins.

So that is the next question:  How much added weight can you do for 5 or 6 reps?

[Yoru]

Actually, you'd be surprised. Climbing at a high level involves a lot of back strength, yes, but it's more grip/finger strength and muscle recruitment (along with balance and technique). I have a buddy who's rail thin and climbs at a semi-pro level (V8/5.13a) but I can beat him in pure pull-ups. I knew a girl who was also an excellent climber (V6-7) but she couldn't break ten pull-ups to save her life.

The real pros can probably blast out pull-ups like nobody's business, but your average "very good" climber, not necessarily.

Me, I've only been doing pronated wide-grip pull-ups for the past few years, haven't tried neutral or supinated in a long time. My best for that was 15 fresh; at the gym, I usually do three sets of pull-ups to failure at the end of a workout, which in recent days has been 11-9-8; used to be 12-12-10 at peak. Once I get back to 10-10-10 or better, I intend to return to trying for one-arm pull-ups.

[Cyrrex]

Well, for wide grip that is actually really good, I'd say.  There aren't many people that can do even 10 wide grip pull-ups, let alone more than one set.

My belief that the climbers would be good at these (assuming they train them at all, obviously) is based on my suspicion that you usually try to keep a relatively low bodyweight and have a good strength-to-weight ratio.  It doesn't automatically mean you are good at them, only that you have an automatic advantage, and I assume there are similarities in muscles involved.

[K9]

Interesting; I also thought climbers would be a bit better. Perhaps this fits my other expectation though, that chinups become exponentially harder. Doing the first one is hard, but then going from one to ten is pretty straightforward. Going from ten to twenty is a lot harder though, and I'd imagine 20+ harder yet again, even relative to the difficulties of 1-10, or 10-20.

Weightwise I could do 5-6 full range pullups with about 15kg I think, I'll have to check next time I gym. This is at ~92kg bodyweight. Adding small amounts of weight seems easier for me at the moment than pushing higher reps.

[Cyrrex]

I have no doubt you are right about how they increase in difficulty on a pretty steep curve.  Doing number one is easy as shit.  By number five you might start feeling a pretty significant burn, and by number ten they just suck.  And so on.  I think this has a lot to do with the fact that your biceps are the limiting factor in how many you can do, and biceps tend to burn out pretty quickly (and I think they fill with lactic acid more quickly as well, causing more uncomfortable burn) and are some of the weaker muscles we have.  Stupid fucking biceps.  I fucking hate mine.

According to Fitocracy my best for 5 reps is 25kg (at probably 81 kg body weight or something), but I am pretty sure I could do at least 30kg if I only did a single warmup set.  Best single is 45kg, and that is fucking hard.  Adding weight also gets harder on a very steep curve.

[Yoru]

My belief that the climbers would be good at these (assuming they train them at all, obviously) is based on my suspicion that you usually try to keep a relatively low bodyweight and have a good strength-to-weight ratio.  It doesn't automatically mean you are good at them, only that you have an automatic advantage, and I assume there are similarities in muscles involved.

Yeah, it's probably more of an advantage for training than automatic ability. Especially for wide-grip, which shifts work from your biceps towards your shoulders/lats, there's overlap. Of the skeletal muscles, you definitely want stronger back/lat and leg muscles as opposed to biceps.

The key to really good climbing is not using your arms, which is why a lot of really good climbers have backs that look like Greek statues attached to wiry chicken-wing arms. You want to keep your arms straight, with your weight on your back and feet, or else you use weak, easily-tired muscles like biceps/triceps.

This is why my advice to new climbers almost always comes down to "trust your feet; use your feet; forget your arms".

Interesting; I also thought climbers would be a bit better. Perhaps this fits my other expectation though, that chinups become exponentially harder.

Definitely my experience. The first 5-8 on a set will be cake, then the last 2-3 will be murder. Squeezing out that final rep is absolute torture and usually leaves my head spinning.

[Nebu]

So that is the next question:  How much added weight can you do for 5 or 6 reps?

I do 3 sets of 8 pullups and chins with a 25lb plate in a backpack.  I do 3 sets of 6 wide grip.  I also do 3 sets of 15 dips with a 45lb plate (from a belt).

I often have 8-10 week periods over the summer where I focus on naturals just to give my joints a rest.  I also like the physique it sculpts.  I've been considering giving crossfit a try as a result. As I get older, doing heavy weights is causing both more injuries and requires more recovery time.  I think naturals with some added weight may be the way to go in the future.

[bhodi]

The key to really good climbing is not using your arms, which is why a lot of really good climbers have backs that look like Greek statues attached to wiry chicken-wing arms. You want to keep your arms straight, with your weight on your back and feet, or else you use weak, easily-tired muscles like biceps/triceps.

This is why my advice to new climbers almost always comes down to "trust your feet; use your feet; forget your arms".

I was (am) always irrationally angry that climbing never really used my stomach muscles. I never did develop the abs some of the guys like to show off by walking around shirtless in the gym. Need more overhangs, I guess, but even then, it's all back.

[Cyrrex]

Pull-ups, on the other hand, actually give a fairly decent ab workout.

[Cyrrex]

Here's a pretty great article by Mark Rippetoe (the guy behind Starting Strength).  Pretty spot on, IMO.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/rippetoe_throws_down

I don't think this is so much a rip on "exercising", which certainly has a place.  But by God there are a lot of the people at the gym who think they are training to get stronger but really, really aren't.  Anyway, it is food for thought. 

Managed to Rack Deadlift 250kg yesterday.  Had failed the same attempt about two weeks ago, so that was cool.  I am still doing traditional deads, but these racked deads seem like a really good way to get some serious extra stress on the muscles in the upper back (where regular deads seem to be limited by your lower back strength to a large degree).  250 made me clench my muscles so damn tight that when I put the weight back down, it actually fucking hurts to unclench them again and relax.  I think I also nearly sprung a testicle, which is not information I would normally share with you.  Also, I am wondering if I need to invest in some higher quality straps...these cheap cotton ones are really tearing up my wrists now.

[DraconianOne]

Here's a pretty great article by Mark Rippetoe (the guy behind Starting Strength).  Pretty spot on, IMO.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/rippetoe_throws_down

I don't think this is so much a rip on "exercising", which certainly has a place.  But by God there are a lot of the people at the gym who think they are training to get stronger but really, really aren't.  Anyway, it is food for thought. 

Not particularly keen on the confrontational tone of the article or the generalisations but I mostly agree with what he says considering the target audience of that site. On the other hand, that article out of context is just as bad as the ones he mentions.

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, with guys like Rippetoe and Wendler, the tone comes with the territory.  I tend to find it hilarious, but I suppose that comes more naturally when you are drinking the same kool-aid. 

And you are right - the key point here is not to shit on all of these other forms of exercises, but to distinguish that training strength is different than what most people think.  Put another way, it is for the people who go to the gym for the main purpose of getting big and strong, and doing it totally wrong.

[K9]

I find these brilliant:

Source: SirArtwork

Hip Drive



Happy New Year




Creatine

[Yoru]

Yeah, with guys like Rippetoe and Wendler, the tone comes with the territory.  I tend to find it hilarious, but I suppose that comes more naturally when you are drinking the same kool-aid. 

And you are right - the key point here is not to shit on all of these other forms of exercises, but to distinguish that training strength is different than what most people think.  Put another way, it is for the people who go to the gym for the main purpose of getting big and strong, and doing it totally wrong.

I dunno, I kinda like being one of the few folks at my current gym who seems to "get it". I don't mind if people are dicking around with bicep curls or smith machines, because it means I've almost never had to wait for the squat rack, deadlift bar or bench. Please, do all the fad workouts you want! I'll be over there in the corner with my face turning shades of purple.

Also, I rost to the the New Years comic. So true.

[Cyrrex]

[/quote]

I dunno, I kinda like being one of the few folks at my current gym who seems to "get it". I don't mind if people are dicking around with bicep curls or smith machines, because it means I've almost never had to wait for the squat rack, deadlift bar or bench. Please, do all the fad workouts you want! I'll be over there in the corner with my face turning shades of purple.

[/quote]

I couldn't agree more, actually.

Today, I deadlifted 215 kg from the ground.  Raaawwr!  2.6 times bodyweight.  Would love to do 3 times, but I think that's unrealistic.

[K9]

Does anyone have any useful advice for wrist tendonitis?

[Trippy]

RICE. And a split.

[Cyrrex]

New Years goal time! 

First, a summary of current goals...

- 400 lb Deadlift:  Passed!  Blew that one away.  When I set that goal for myself a couple years ago (I actually think I set the goal for 380, not sure why), I didn't seriously think I would achieve it.  It seemed like such a stupidly big number.  And it kind of is...I won't set any further DL goals, because it all seems rather crazy once you get past that marker.

- 90 lb (per hand) seated dumbbell shoulder presses:  Failed!  I don't have access to anything over 86 lbs, so this one is officially off the list.  It was rather arbitrary anyway.  I think I only wanted to be able to do it because so few people can do it to begin with.  I stopped doing this exercise anyway, as I didn't seem to be getting anywhere with it.  Have since cleaned and push pressed 225 lbs, which seems a better accomplishment anyway, and definitely a more worthwhile exercise.

- 275 lb bench press:  Okay, this wasn't really a goal until I just failed the attempt two weeks ago (the near Roll of Shame incident).  So I just now put it on my list.  And I achieved it three days ago.  So it is a retroactive goal.  Got a spotter this time, but he didn't have to touch the bar.  Got it up with relative ease.  Funny how things can be so different from one day to the next.

- Physique of a cast member of 300 or Spartacus:  Maybe?  They could cast me as the hornery old Doctore, or that Quasimodo fella.  I am too old, too bald, and considerably less handsome than Gerard Butler.  But I'm not that far off.  This is the official Long Term Goal anyway, so it is a constant work in progress. 

So, new goals...I could talk about a 300 lb bench, because climbjtree can do that and he is sort of my hero.  Maybe that goes on the list.  I need to get my squats up if I can, but I am not sure if these decrepit curved bones are going to let it happen.  330 lbs for reps would be nice, but I don't know.  I am starting to think that my whole training bent is overly focused on strength, and too little on aesthetics.  I am demonstrably stronger than 99% of the people at my gym (family type place, so it isn't like I am competing with Olympians), despite many of them being visibly quite a bit larger than me, including almost all of the scary looking biker dudes with the skull tattoos.  I have very well developed triceps, back and shoulder/delt muscles, but some of my "glory" muscles need work, irrespective of how strong those muscles might actually be.  Pecs, biceps, calves, etc.

So I am thinking of switching over to a pure high rep body building routine very soon to build some real mass and address some of these aesthetic weaknesses.  I don't know.  I am loathe to stop what I am doing, but I doubt I will get much further with it anyway unless I decide to start piling on the extra calories.  And I'm not sure my body responds quite as well to the high rep, lower weight routine.  So, still debating what my next short term goals should be.

What about the rest of you?  If you don't already do it, I find it to be extremely important to have both short and long term goals in mind, and to talk about them with others (like with all you people).  Not only does it help for getting advice, but it forces you to think, study and be accountable for it.

Sorry for quoting myself, but I want to take stock of myself based on what I said for my goals for the year...and make some new ones.

Deadlift:  Now officially at 473 lbs.  Totally satisfied with this, anything more is gravy.  Rack dead is at 550.
Bench:  Still pretty much stuck at at 275 lb max.  I am really not sure how to approach improving this one.  To be honest I would kinda rather build more volume in my chest rather than increase weight.  We'll see.  I will still consider a 300 lb bench to be an official goal.
Squat:  Officially 341 lbs x 3 reps, so I surprised the shit out of myself with this one.  Have done a single for 374 lbs (just hit this 4 days ago), and feel there is still room for improvement.  I think I have added nearly 90 lbs to my squat since my original post above from back in January.  Would like to aim for a single at 400 lbs, because why the fuck not?

Total for the big three is officially now at about 1120 lbs, which just blows my mind.  It wasn't much more than 5 or 6 months ago that I squeaked over 1000.  Despite my bench not going anywhere, I feel like I have better overall balance now that my squats are getting to a better place. 

[Yoru]

I'm getting pretty close to my original goals and surpassing some of them. Squat and deadlift are back up to 110kg and I'm much more confident now in being able to surpass the 120kg barrier. If I can hit 130kg I'll be at 2x bodyweight, which is pretty rad.

Bench has hit my original goal at 80kg, and I'm pretty sure I can squeeze up to 85-90kg over the course of the year. Overhead/military press is at 45kg and slowly improving.

I haven't been climbing for a few months, and it's showing in my pull-ups; I got knocked down to 8/8/6 and have just worked back up to 10/10/8. Trying hard to get up to 10/10/10 and then into the 12s.

[Cyrrex]

I assume those are one rep maxes?  My first impression was "nice squat and bench", and then "not so much on the dead and OHP".  Plugging your numbers into trusty old http://www.strstd.com/ seems to back that up.

I don't mean this as a dig, because the bench and squat numbers actually ARE quite nice for your bodyweight.  I would think, though, that you would get a lot of benefit from focusing on the weaker lifts...OHPs give a fantastic carryover to bench strength (good for the core as well, assuming you are standing), and deads are just great for stimulating your whole body (and releasing max growth hormones).  I bet your overall progress on everything would improve by shifting focus to those two lifts (not exclusively, just give them extra attention).

Anyway, just my two cents.  My own recent experience is proving to me that balance across these four things is extremely important for making improvement, so I am always checking myself.  It'll never be perfect, but I think it is worth considering.

[Yoru]

Actually, no, those are my working 5-rep weights. I haven't tested my one-rep max lately. But yeah, I know the deadlift and milpress are weak, they're my focus right now.

[Cyrrex]

In that case, those are actually REALLY good numbers on the bench and squat, and quite respectable on the others.  You weigh around 65 kg?