WOTLK raid progression.

[kildorn]

I think on that run someone before the pull said 'there's no reason to not just stack up the ranged rite'...

We were all stacked up because we had a few issues with adds, as in "Oh God, an add is on me, I shall do everything conceivable BUT run to the add tank so she can get it off me"

I believe I was in blood stance for that first try and only lost one add. I'm the best offtank ever!

Dear blizzard: presences as listed buffs, plz. So that either I'll notice when I start a fight in Frost, or someone else will fucking notice ><

[Sjofn]

I think showing the aura as a buff is what screws with my head, since I always take the imp. frost aura BECAUSE I CAN. So I THINK I'm in frost stance.

Of course, I've forgotten to switch from berserker to defensive stance on my warrior before, so really I'm just a tard.

[Ratman_tf]

Sarth+2 down tonight. I'm hoping we can get Sarth+3 before Ulduar, but we'll see...

[K9]

Congrats, 10 or 25?

[Ratman_tf]

Congrats, 10 or 25?

25. We were beating our heads on it for a while, but we kept making progress and then it just clicked on the final run. I'm dreading 3D. 

[Ironwood]

Because of the glasses ?

[Ratman_tf]

Because of the glasses ?

[Fabricated]

Just did my first full-clear of 25-man Naxx today.

Holy fuck did Blizzard really get the difficulty scaling backwards. Ignoring Kel'Thuzad and Raz (if you don't have priests or have shitty ones) the whole place is magnitudes easier than the 10-man.

[Fordel]

Just did my first full-clear of 25-man Naxx today.

Holy fuck did Blizzard really get the difficulty scaling backwards. Ignoring Kel'Thuzad and Raz (if you don't have priests or have shitty ones) the whole place is magnitudes easier than the 10-man.

Blizz agrees and said they are working to ensure(insure?) 25 man Uld is in fact more difficult then the 10 man one.

[K9]

Patchwerk is a much stiffer gear check in 25 than 10s too, otherwise completely true.

[Ingmar]

Patchwerk is a much stiffer gear check in 25 than 10s too, otherwise completely true.

Yeah the first 25 PUG I did was a bit of an eye opener. Not having to do tank swaps on 4H makes me go  .

[Rendakor]

25 is easier than 10 to PUG because you have a much higher margin of error, or as I like to say margin of retard. Everyone in 10m pretty much has to be on the ball, while in 25 a couple slackers will not wipe you.

[Xeyi]

Everything just seems to die much faster in the 25 man version. Whether they underestimated the difference a full set of buffs from every class would make I don't know, but the difference is extremely noticeable.  From a healer's point of view the bosses don't seem to really hit any harder either (with the noticeable exception of patchwerk).

My guild is small and only does 10 man raids, but we can do 25 man ToS easily.  This is with our regular group of 10 people and 2 healers.  The trash is slightly harder but the only other noticeable difference is that Sartharion has more hp.

[Nonentity]

Just got my Glory of the Raider last night (yay, Plagued Proto Drake!) http://www.wowarmory.com/character-achievements.xml?r=Illidan&n=Non - I'm not really a main raider, so I managed to convince people to help out with various stuff.

The last thing I needed to do was three-drake 10-man Sarth, which has notoriously been much more difficult than the 25 man version.

However, we decided to try the Sarth zerg strat that has been popular in videos recently, where you just immediately hop into a hard burn on Sarth.

After trying it a few times to get the hang of it, we managed to down sarth in 1 minute 17 seconds - when the first drake came down, we just had one of our druid DPS go bear and pick it up. Everyone dies at the end, but then the drakes despawn, and everyone is happy.

It really is kind of stupid how easy it was, if all the DPS are pulling good DPS. I was pulling between 5k and 5.5k DPS, and I was 3rd on DPS.

[Nonentity]

Oh, sweet - our tank Frasps'd it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In3F1z43ugk

[K9]

Congrats.

[Soulflame]

That's kind of sad.  I'm fairly sure it's not a legit strat, but I doubt anything will happen other than Sarth being given a hard enrage if he hits 30% with a drake still alive or something.

i.e. everyone who abused voidwalker tank or zerg Sarth with drakes still alive should lose the achievement.

[Nonentity]

All they need to do is change the achievement to say kill the three drakes while sarth is up, then sarth - or two drakes while sarth is up, then sarth, etc.

We were there and prepared to do it the normal way (we do one every week), but we just wanted to try the zerg strat for fun.

Don't take my achievement away.



Taking things away from players because they figured out how to beat an encounter better than Blizzard designed it shouldn't be punished on behalf of the players, because that way in the future, they'll just exploit and not even tell Blizzard or anyone about it. Was Naxx designed to be beat in an hour and 15 minutes? Probably not, but it's being done anyways.

[Ingmar]

That's kind of sad.  I'm fairly sure it's not a legit strat, but I doubt anything will happen other than Sarth being given a hard enrage if he hits 30% with a drake still alive or something.

i.e. everyone who abused voidwalker tank or zerg Sarth with drakes still alive should lose the achievement.

By this logic, they should take away all achievements from anyone who ever did them at the wrong level. Explore Elywynn Forest? Sorry man, you have to do that before level 10 to make it meaningful.

[kildorn]

Burn the boss and die to the adds has been a legit (if desperate) strategy since Wow's release. The challenge is being able to burn it fast enough to pull it off.

[Soulflame]

Exploring a zone at level 80 is nothing like winning an encounter in a way not intended by the developers.  They even gave the drakes a hard enrage when Sarth hits X%, probably figuring it would be sufficient to wipe any raid before he could be downed.  Has anyone a link to a comment by a dev saying it's a legit strat?

Soo, assuming it is legit, use a DK to tank the drakes, and have him use cooldowns when the enrage hits?

[Lakov_Sanite]

That's kind of sad.  I'm fairly sure it's not a legit strat, but I doubt anything will happen other than Sarth being given a hard enrage if he hits 30% with a drake still alive or something.

i.e. everyone who abused voidwalker tank or zerg Sarth with drakes still alive should lose the achievement.

There really aren't enough words involving a combination of douche and bag in the english language to properly describe you.  I bet when someone cheats at minesweeper you think their computer should melt down as well?

Exploting using hacks is one thing, finding a new way to do something has been a tradition in online games since they were created.  Clearly blizzard did not intend voidwalkers to tank sarth or for people to ignore the drakes but that hardly diminishes the effort put in.

 Honestly I've seen the voidwalker strategy used and while it does negate the flame breath I found that it was just as difficult because controlling the VW was so damned clunky when it came to the flame waves that I didn't see it as a huge improvement. As to the dps race? Well damn, if a group is putting out that dps they need an achievement.

The only reason 3d 10man is so hard is because of class cockblocks, you need a very specific comp to do it and that's really not a matter of skill so much as having all the right people to do it. I.E you NEED a shaman for bloodlust and a minimum of two tanks two healers, maybe three give or take. 

In short, 3d sarth is not serious business, stop shitting on peoples fun.

[Hindenburg]

Has anyone a link to a comment by a dev saying it's a legit strat?

That comment is beautifully retarded.

[K9]

I fully expect that in 3.1 they'll change it such that Sarth enrages rather than the drakes. This detail is really the only flaw which enables the zerg strategy.

It's not that the zerg approach is cheating, but it does cheapen the fight, and it does require that you significantly outgear the place. In all Sarth 3D is somewhat of an anomaly, it is harder on 10 than 25, it is incredibly complex if you do it the 'intended' way, and it is effectively impossible without 25-man gear. People who can get the DPS to burn him down probably don't stand to gain much except for the achievement, as the gear is almost certainly useless by that point; the folks who can handle doing him the complex way will probably be beating the Ulduar hard modes quicker than most too. In the end it really makes no difference, except to e-peen.

[Lakov_Sanite]

You forget that blizzard also cares very little for 'old' content and in a week 3d sarth will be old. They've already said that you won't be able to get proto-drakes from the glory achievements after 3.1, only the ulduar achievements.

If anything I expect to see 3d made a bit easier in the ten man since right now you do need 25man gear to beat it, even doing it the 'right' way. Blizzard has said on several occasions they don't want to make 25man gear necessary for 10man achievements, even going so far as to make in the next patch achievements that cannot be earned if wearing any items above the 10man ulduar level.

[K9]

As much as they do ignore old content to an extent, they do tend to patch or hotfix 'unintended' approaches to content, such as the diminishing returns on taunts in 3.1 (fixing the 3-hunter Raz method), the shield buff on DK-wing trash and . They may or may not, my suspicion is that they will, but then nerf the whole thing 6 weeks or so after 3.1 hits, in one of the subsequent tweak patches. It will be easier, but it will force you to do it the 'intended' way. That would match my experience with Blizzard.

[Soulflame]

That's kind of sad.  I'm fairly sure it's not a legit strat, but I doubt anything will happen other than Sarth being given a hard enrage if he hits 30% with a drake still alive or something.

i.e. everyone who abused voidwalker tank or zerg Sarth with drakes still alive should lose the achievement.

There really aren't enough words involving a combination of douche and bag in the english language to properly describe you.  I bet when someone cheats at minesweeper you think their computer should melt down as well?

Exploting using hacks is one thing, finding a new way to do something has been a tradition in online games since they were created.  Clearly blizzard did not intend voidwalkers to tank sarth or for people to ignore the drakes but that hardly diminishes the effort put in.

 Honestly I've seen the voidwalker strategy used and while it does negate the flame breath I found that it was just as difficult because controlling the VW was so damned clunky when it came to the flame waves that I didn't see it as a huge improvement. As to the dps race? Well damn, if a group is putting out that dps they need an achievement.

The only reason 3d 10man is so hard is because of class cockblocks, you need a very specific comp to do it and that's really not a matter of skill so much as having all the right people to do it. I.E you NEED a shaman for bloodlust and a minimum of two tanks two healers, maybe three give or take. 

In short, 3d sarth is not serious business, stop shitting on peoples fun.

You're the one who thinks progression doesn't mean a damn thing if any Tom, Dick, or Pug can accomplish it, so you can kindly sit down and drink yourself into a stupor with a warm bottle of STFU.

It's clear the VW strat is abuse: the pet can have 90k health, isn't knocked around by lava waves, and in fact can be positioned such that it can avoid lava waves altogether.  On top of that, Blizzard intends to fix it (or has already) by nerfing the talents that even made a 90k HP pool even possible.

And yes, it does diminish the "accomplishment" if the fight is done in a way that wasn't intended.  The VW tank is abuse, the "zerg Sarth" "strat" is purely avoiding the fight as intended altogether, and will also likely being fixed by having Sarth enrage instead of the drakes.  Particularly since Uld gear will trivialize the DPS requirement to down Sarth before the second drake lands.

I'm all too aware that Sarth10 3D is hard, and the best way to down it is via stacking of melee or caster DPS to maximize buffs.  Even so, making the fight "easy" by not doing it as intended is bullshit.

[Soulflame]

Has anyone a link to a comment by a dev saying it's a legit strat?

That comment is beautifully retarded.

How is it retarded, much less beautifully so?  Dazzle me.

[Hindenburg]

So we'll be requiring dev posts every time a new strat is elaborated? 

While I am certain that that wasn't what you meant, that was what you said.

[Soulflame]

Sooo, wait.  You have nothing?   

[Nonentity]

Not to turn this into a flame war or anything, but why the hell are you getting so pissed that I managed to down it using the zerg strat? I've done it using the normal 3d 10m strat as well, and they both require stacked groups.

They'll fix it, sure, but why the hell take it away from anyone? Does that make your victory against a badly tuned encounter that much better if you know that everyone else who did it this way lost it?

I really don't understand!

[Fordel]

E-Peen, if everyone has one, then no one has one.


Or something. 

[Rasix]

It's just an achievement.  Really.  I think I got the same amount of points for getting a haircut. 

[Koyasha]

As much as they do ignore old content to an extent, they do tend to patch or hotfix 'unintended' approaches to content, such as the diminishing returns on taunts in 3.1 (fixing the 3-hunter Raz method), the shield buff on DK-wing trash and . They may or may not, my suspicion is that they will, but then nerf the whole thing 6 weeks or so after 3.1 hits, in one of the subsequent tweak patches. It will be easier, but it will force you to do it the 'intended' way. That would match my experience with Blizzard.

This is one of the things I hate most about Blizzard.  They demand everything be done their way, and if you DARE to show even the slightest bit of intelligence and initiative in discovering a different strategy to use, they will nerf the crap out of it.  It's one thing if a new strategy makes a fight entirely trivial and has it pose zero challenge...but it's entirely different if the new strategy poses a challenge in a different way than was "intended."  Doing Sartharion by hard-burning him still poses a challenge - it's just a different kind of challenge.  I hadn't heard of doing him with a voidwalker, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't make the fight trivial either.  Using three people to bounce Razuvious around isn't trivial, it's in fact MORE CHALLENGING than the 'normal' method because if any of them are even a split second off on their taunts, it's entirely possible Razuvious will one-shot one of them with an unbalancing strike. 

The shield buff on death knight wing trash, on the other hand, allowed a 25 man dungeon to be done by a single character who isn't even that well geared.  That's a somewhat different matter there, because while it might in fact be quite challenging for the mage doing it to pull off, it does still trivialize the place, so it's entirely understandable for that to be changed.

This is one of the reasons why raiding in WoW is kind of dull and boring to a degree.  Everyone does the same exact thing on every single boss.  Everyone.  Because the devs demand it.  Rather than designing an enemy and seeing what clever solutions the players come up with, they design a fight, including dictating the actions of the players and if the players ever come up with a clever solution it gets smacked down.  Almost as though they get personally offended that someone came up with a plan that works and they didn't think of, and their designed method may not be the best way to do it.

[Arinon]

This is one of the reasons why raiding in WoW is kind of dull and boring to a degree.  Everyone does the same exact thing on every single boss.  Everyone. 

One of the other major reasons it's moved to dull and boring is the cold war they got into with the mod community.  They pretty much gave this up when all their testers started using the mods as well.  Encounters were balanced and are now designed with the assumption everyone is using them.  A lot of mechanics and 'fun things' they can add to boss fights get trivialized by UI hacks so they only get a token representation.

I seem to recall several blue names implying that allowing the degree of freedom they did with the UI was a mistake.  Be interesting to see how much of that carries over to their upcoming MMOG.