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Author Topic: Dirty little secret  (Read 23600 times)
Aenovae
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Reply #70 on: December 06, 2004, 11:49:21 AM

Quote from: murdoc
Actually doing the quillboar's quest now just to gather linen for my tailor alt. Most of the quillboars drop 2-3 tusks so it's REALLY only like 30 you have to kill...


No, you're right. It sucks. Though I will admit, it was the first quest I looked at and debated whether I really wanted to accept it or not.


That would be a standard post-20 quest in EQ2.  All my quests lately (in EQ2) have been of this nature: kill 25 double-up (similar to WoW's Elite mobs) yellow mobs, kill 50 double-up caster mobs, kill 30 grouped skeletons at the bottom of a pain-in-the-ass dungeon that you need a group just to get to, etc.

Fortunately, most of the nasty quests give great rewards, so they're usually worth the effort.
Sky
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Reply #71 on: December 06, 2004, 12:22:53 PM

My current favorite quest in my 14 levels of WoW, something not matched for coolness in my 17 levels of E2: steal a bunch of pumpkins from a farm so you can use them to spread the Plague. Lots of cool moments in that quest arc, like trying the various results of the alchemist's efforts on prisoners.

WoW's got it's hooks in me in a way EQ2 couldn't hope to, even setting aside the abysmal encounter system of EQ2.
Margalis
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Reply #72 on: December 06, 2004, 03:20:30 PM

Quote from: Rasix


There's actually a quest you can do at the same time.  I think it's killing around 12 of two different caster types and like 8 of the melee variety.  You're usually done with the tusks when you complete it (you really only have to kill around 30).

There's a lot of quests in WoW that you can do concurrently.  Reduces the amount of frustration by leaps and bounds.


Yes, it does reduce it, unless you miss one of the quests, in which case IT REALLY SUCKS.

I cannot count the number of times I went to the #$#@! echo islands to basically kill the same shit again. Go collect some Raptor Eggs...gee, thanks for telling me after I just came from there killing some Hexed Trolls...

I ran into a bunch of times where I could have done quests concurrently, had I known about them, which I didn't.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Toast
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Reply #73 on: December 06, 2004, 04:57:31 PM

I'm out. I made the switch to WoW, and I'm loving it.

My roommate, who is still doing EQ2 is pissed. C'est la vie!

A good idea is a good idea forever.
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #74 on: December 06, 2004, 06:40:13 PM

Blizzard uber alles!

Anyway, I certainly don't run around slavishly doing every quest I get in WoW.  If one doesn't interest me, I decline it.  Or do it in bits and pieces.  Or throw it on the back burner and plan on getting to it next week or something.

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Alkiera
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Reply #75 on: December 07, 2004, 09:16:05 PM

Quote from: Sky
even setting aside the abysmal encounter system of EQ2.


Because WoW's system is so much different.  Aside from mobs being grouped, and there may be those in WoW, just didn't see any in the time I played, the systems are more or less identical in practice.

a) He who hits first, gets the exp/loot
b) getting agro'd on doesn't count as hitting first
c) hit some key to break encounter(in EQ) and run away.

Except WoW doesn't give you any sprint or way to run away faster in an emergency.  And lets people powerlevel by having a newb tap a mob, then having their high level buddy one-shot it.  Newb gets exp.  And failing that, you can have a heal bot follow you around ungrouped and keep you healthy and buffed while you take on mobs non-stop.

I like the fact that some mobs hang out in groups in EQ2.  Most players hang out in groups, it's only taken NPCs 6 years to pick up the hint...  It means bosses and their minions always spawn at the same time, so you can't time respawns to 'break the room' for camping like EQ1.  Frequently, 'the room' is one group, maybe two if it's a big room.

Also, it lets you have CoH-like moments of 'OMG, we just took on like 10 nasty things and their boss and lived to brag about it'.  In a group of three, guardian, cleric, enchanter took on a group of 8 higher-level antelopes in the Thundering Steppes.  Fight ran like a slower-paced CoH battle, where tank runs into middle of pile attracting attention, healer heals to keep him alive, and the blaster actually does damage...  Tho enchanter as damage dealer is kinda an odd thing to think for someone who played EQ as long as I did.

In EQ1, that fight would have been about how to split the group up to get them one or two at a time...  using Lull, or getting a monk to FD-pull or having someone kite the group around while we pick them off one at a time.  It was lame.  In EQ2, if it's grouped, and you are, then there shouldn't be a balance problem, just pull the group and go at it.  If you fail, it was either too high level, or someone screwed up on a tactical level.

Alkiera

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Sky
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Reply #76 on: December 08, 2004, 06:54:49 AM

Well, most of that's not what I'm talking about. The locked groups is, having hard-coded npc groups is a straight-up "f-u" to soloers. I primarily solo. Now is where you tell me to go play Morrowind, I think.

But the system I refer to is the other part of the "f-u" to soloers, the Group(x2) and ^^ crap.

WoW does have 'grouped' mobs, they just overlap aggro ranges, and there's at least a chance a smart soloer can break them up in some place, in others there isn't much chance, but two soloers can split the pull and whatnot. WoW gives you options, EQ2 forces you to deal with the entire 'encounter' without any help from anyone at all. That's crappy, imo.
UD_Delt
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Reply #77 on: December 08, 2004, 07:22:27 AM

I don't know Sky...

So far over 18 levels I have not had a problem finding a nice solo spot with non-social "solo" labeled mobs.

I have soloed probably 85% of my experience so far through hunting and questing (108 quests completed). The few groups I've had have had at least one idiot and I end up leaving the group with exp debt.

So, up to level 18 so far I've found solo + questing solo to be the fastest way to level. Maybe a good group would do a lot to change that but right now there are too many idiots.
Murgos
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Reply #78 on: December 08, 2004, 10:21:26 AM

Read group as mob level +2,
Group^ as mob level +3 to 4
and Group^^ as mob level 5+

My 18 pred can solo 14 and 15 group mobs as long as there arent too many of them (if you use the +2 rule above then thats equivalent to soloing 2 or 3 level 16 - 17 solo mobs - fair enough).  For group^ I can solo two level 13's or one level 14-15, sometimes two 14's depending on how hard they hit and what attacks they use and if the rnd is nice and gives me ringing blows on my HO's.  I.e its equivalent to soloing two lvl 18/19ish 'solo' con mobs.  lvl 14 group^^ are hit or miss for me but doable as for practicallity they are 20 -21.

This method works for me, you are getting too caught up in the color of the con instead of what it means.  Why solo green group mobs at all then?  Because they give exp and loot out of proportion to thier difficulty.  They give exp as though I were soloing 'solo' con oranges and reds but are much safer because individually they are much weaker, hit less often and hit for less plus I hit harder.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Sobelius
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Reply #79 on: December 08, 2004, 11:52:23 AM

Quote from: Murgos

My 18 pred can solo 14 and 15 group mobs as long as there arent too many of them (if you use the +2 rule above then thats equivalent to soloing 2 or 3 level 16 - 17 solo mobs - fair enough).  For group^ I can solo two level 13's or one level 14-15, sometimes two 14's depending on how hard they hit and what attacks they use and if the rnd is nice and gives me ringing blows on my HO's.  I.e its equivalent to soloing two lvl 18/19ish 'solo' con mobs.  lvl 14 group^^ are hit or miss for me but doable as for practicallity they are 20 -21.


Yes -- same experience as me with my predator (now 20 assassin).

Quote
This method works for me, you are getting too caught up in the color of the con instead of what it means.  Why solo green group mobs at all then?  Because they give exp and loot out of proportion to thier difficulty.  They give exp as though I were soloing 'solo' con oranges and reds but are much safer because individually they are much weaker, hit less often and hit for less plus I hit harder.


Again, same thing I have found. I also have heard from a number of people that assassins are really best class for solo, but I also find I really shine in groups, too.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
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Sky
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Reply #80 on: December 08, 2004, 01:07:03 PM

Quote
So far over 18 levels I have not had a problem finding a nice solo spot with non-social "solo" labeled mobs.

Wow, I'm repeating this alot, I guess.

I can easily solo in EQ2, I'm not griping about the lack of solo-ability.

I'm griping about being relegated to a second class citizen, only good enough to hunt yard trash and nothing else. No interesting nameds, no dungeons. Because they're all artificially boosted to put them out of reach of solo players, unless you tackle it very green or grey, so heroic. Not to mention the amount of quests for grouped-only mobs (orc pawns, fer crissakes, pawns!).

It is possible to solo in EQ2, I mostly soloed to level 17 doing quests. It's just bland and boring when you are denied the 'good' content. It's good you guys have found a way to rationalize it, I cannot.

If WoW turns into the same thing post-20 with elite mobs, I'll not hesitate to cancel that, either.
Murgos
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Reply #81 on: December 08, 2004, 01:45:28 PM

Quote from: Sky

I'm griping about being relegated to a second class citizen, only good enough to hunt yard trash and nothing else. No interesting nameds, no dungeons. Because they're all artificially boosted to put them out of reach of solo players, unless you tackle it very green or grey, so heroic. Not to mention the amount of quests for grouped-only mobs (orc pawns, fer crissakes, pawns!).


I dont see what the problem is with having to wait until a tough named mob is green to solo it?  I said I solo group^^ mobs for exp and loot above.  What part of that didn't you understand?  Or, are you just bitching because you want to solo stuff when the color of the con is white regardless of its difficulty?

Anyway if you read the upcoming notes you will see that due to player response SOE will be adding more soloable content across the board.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Sobelius
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Reply #82 on: December 08, 2004, 03:24:36 PM

Quote from: Sky
It's just bland and boring when you are denied the 'good' content.


[Sky, just a note: not trying to convince you to play EQ2 or to say that somehow your experience of EQ2 is not what it was -- you didn't enjoy it, enough said. Just adding my 2c.]

I have yet to find hunting/fighting named mobs in a group any better (i.e. more fun) than hunting/fighting solo-able content.

I have had two solo instanced events that were the best experience of my eq2 gaming so far -- the class quest at 10 and the class quest at 20. Both required assassinating someone and the second required some 'attitude' when navigating a dialog tree -- basically, by thinking like an evil assassin, I picked the correct answers the first time.

If there were more solo-able instanced content, maybe a little like missions in CoH, that could help a lot. I think SOE missed an opportunity to create scalable instanced content; maybe they'll do that down the road.

Getting into a group from time to time is a nice change of pace from soloing.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
Sky
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Reply #83 on: December 09, 2004, 06:58:28 AM

Quote
I dont see what the problem is with having to wait until a tough named mob is green to solo it?

Then it's a waste of time to discuss it any further.
Murgos
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Reply #84 on: December 09, 2004, 08:06:36 AM

Whiny little dick.

So are you pissed at Wow because you can't solo thier high end stuff the second you see it?  What the fuck is the point of you ever playing a MMOG or any game iwth character progression or development?  Stick to platformers it's apparently all you want to play anyway.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Toast
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Reply #85 on: December 09, 2004, 08:14:35 AM

Quote
I dont see what the problem is with having to wait until a tough named mob is green to solo it?


This is a serious flaw to EQ2. The pacing and flow of the game is disjointed for the solo player. Level-appropriate quests are generally not achievable solo.

So, in order to do a quest, you have to either group up or carry it around in your journal while levelling up on yard trash. Then, when the quest is trivial, storm in and own the mobs.

I saw this happening time and time again. It breaks the flow of the quests and storyline by introducing the need to treadmill up.

A good idea is a good idea forever.
Murgos
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Reply #86 on: December 09, 2004, 09:35:32 AM

Quote from: Toast
Quote
I dont see what the problem is with having to wait until a tough named mob is green to solo it?


This is a serious flaw to EQ2. The pacing and flow of the game is disjointed for the solo player. Level-appropriate quests are generally not achievable solo.


I disagree.  Your getting hung up on con color.  What happens in WoW if you want to do a quest thats in a dungeon that you cant solo through?  You get a group, right?  Or wait until your high enough level to solo through that dungeon.

So, eq lets you know right up front, these mobs are going to require a group if you want to do them now, otherwise wait a bit and do it solo.

Soloing green 'group' class mobs in EQ2 provides exp and rewards equivalant to soloing orange con 'solo' mobs, more actually.  Why cry over the con color of the mobs?  It's an accurate and detailed system.  If its white and says group, then you will need a group of your level to kill it.  Or, wait until its easier.

WoW does nothing different - I had red con quests in WoW that I wouldn't consider trying to solo.  In a GROUP though not a problem, either that or wait a few levels for the difficulty to drop.  Guess, what?  If you wait the rewards aren't as good as they would have been either.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
UD_Delt
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Reply #87 on: December 09, 2004, 09:46:06 AM

I'm very confused as to what proposed fix you would give Sky.

It seems you want to be able to solo mob x at level 15 and have a group of 6 also be challenged by the same mob. Some sort of dynamic mob difficulty meter based on how many are grouped?

Personally I'm ok with killing level 18^^ mobs while in a group of 6 or killing level 13^^ mobs while solo. Once I'm level 25 or so then I'll go back and be able to kill 18^^ mobs. Killing the same mob for 20 levels because it adjusts dynamically would seem fairly boring to me...

But to each their own...
Sobelius
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Reply #88 on: December 09, 2004, 09:56:20 AM

Quote from: UD_Delt
Killing the same mob for 20 levels because it adjusts dynamically would seem fairly boring to me...


You just hit on one of the problems I have with CoH...

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
Sky
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Reply #89 on: December 09, 2004, 11:38:08 AM

Quote
Whiny little dick.

Hey, fuck you too, buddy.
Ardent
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Reply #90 on: December 09, 2004, 01:00:11 PM

Quote from: Sky
Quote
Whiny little dick.

Hey, fuck you too, buddy.


Is this a transcript from the General channel on a WoW PvP server?

Um, never mind.
Murgos
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Reply #91 on: December 09, 2004, 01:07:37 PM

Quote from: Sky
Quote
Whiny little dick.

Hey, fuck you too, buddy.


You're the one who copped out with the "Well no point in discussing it thern" cheap ass tactic of people who have no real basis for the position they are trying to defend.

If you had a valid point on the color of the con being important I would conceed it.  But you don't.  Your just being a pissant little whiner who is just going "nanananaeqsucksnananaIcanthearyounanana" with his fingers in his ears.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
sidereal
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Reply #92 on: December 10, 2004, 10:20:46 AM

http://www.boingboing.net/images/babyjesushead.jpg">

THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
Resvrgam
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Reply #93 on: December 11, 2004, 01:38:41 PM

From experiences with both games' progression/leveling systems:

EQ2: you're given a quest and have to go grind on "yard trash" for long periods of time before you're even able to partake in the task.  The instructions on finding the "Mob(s) X" is usually ambiguous and involves a lot of "WTF Mob X" until some EQLive veteran chastises you for not knowing that Gnolls always hang out at some <insert uninspiring name> section of the map.

WoW: The quests are designed to actually be what makes you gain the levels.  There's no downtime of "LFG" and all quests are pretty straight forward as to what you're needing to do and what your rewards are before you do it.

I've played both but only one has my credit card on file still.

"In olden times, people studied to improve themselves. Today, they only study to impress others." - Confucius
Murgos
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Reply #94 on: December 12, 2004, 06:14:28 AM

Made 20 and assassin the other night.  Still having a lot of fun.

Merchant nerf was un-nerfed the next night.

When I hit 20 I purchased a bunch of prinstine forged iron chainmail (white con but I'll be replacing it with quested stuff over the next few levels).  Pretty much doubled my AC.  Green^^ mobs are practically givens now with the new higher AC, Blue groups and Blue^ are do-able.

The player crafter armor is MUCH better than the store bought stuff, btw.  Stat and resits +'s and more than half again as much AC (crafted chest is 142 AC store bought is 81) for only a marginally higher price.

edit:  I'm also working on a anumber of interesting quests, thrown in with about half a dozen kill X, quests I have three or four that are requiring some thought and knowledge of the game world and history (greater lightstone heritage for example)

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
kemmyn
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Reply #95 on: December 13, 2004, 09:11:24 AM

I'm also having a great time in EQ2, much more than I did in WoW.

I have to call Resvrgam on bullshit here.  WoW seemed *much* more "kill quest" oriented than EQ2 does.  In EQ I have had quests like "run from here to Bells of Vhalen, to Fangbreaker Keep, to Ruins of Caltorsis, to Oracle Tower, back to here... you have 15 minutes... GO!"  or the bootstrutters backpack quest, that makes you find hidden little places in the zone...

Also quests like the creature cataloguing one... "find and catalogue the following creatures:"  also harvesting quests or craft quests (create 10 scrolls of soandso) for cash and craftsman experience...

EQ2 has MUCH more variety in questing than WoW did.  I played WoW beta to the 30s... i'm level 25 now in EQ2.

Basically to me it all comes down to whether you prefer to solo or group.  Soloers would prefer WoW, people who like more social interaction would prefer EQ2.  

Well, hardware requirements should also be included.  EQ2 will play like total shit on a mid-to-low level system.
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #96 on: December 13, 2004, 10:04:59 AM

I just wanted to point out that running in letterbox mode helps your framerate exactly zero. The engine draws everything behind the letterbox border. A guildie tested this extensively - running back and forth through the same few Qeynos zones a few times with FRAPS on, taking average FPS.

I have never played WoW.
Sobelius
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Reply #97 on: December 16, 2004, 01:45:10 PM

Quote from: shiznitz
I just wanted to point out that running in letterbox mode helps your framerate exactly zero. The engine draws everything behind the letterbox border. A guildie tested this extensively - running back and forth through the same few Qeynos zones a few times with FRAPS on, taking average FPS.


You want a real kicker?

I was grouped last week and at one point my camera wound up *inside* another player's helmet -- I could look out through his visor to watch stuff happening. Then I noticed that I could his his character's *eyeballs* inside the head -- it fully renders the eyeballs inside the head. Nice for making them move and look 'real' -- but a high rendering cost...

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
shiznitz
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the plural of mangina


Reply #98 on: December 17, 2004, 11:38:24 AM

That is so fucking stupid. Jesus.

I have never played WoW.
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