Noob paladin questions

[Kail]

Didn't see a thread about this, sorry if it's already been covered...

Just hit 80 on my Paladin, and I'm wondering what to do with him.  He's ret spec, but his DPS is hilariously low (somewhere in the 600s).  I wouldn't mind respeccing to protection, but I have no idea what to gear for, and all the guides I was using pre-BC haven't been updated.  Was thinking of going holy, too (since tanks are less in demand now that DKs can do it), but I get the impression that Paladin healers are hugely limited compared to the others.  So, I was wondering if anyone's got any advice, or links to any guides, or anything else regarding Paladins at cap.

[WindupAtheist]

Post your armory?

[Kail]

Here ya go.  He's basically got nothing.  Hasn't run anything harder than Violet Hold. 

[Ratman_tf]

I've stuck with Holy and we suffer from limited raid healing. We're best as MT and offtank heals. But I have healed 5 man heroics. It's a matter of gear and knowing your abilities. (That was useful, bleh) Spiritual Shield, Beacon and Holy Shock is really reformed. It's a great "clutch" heal to throw out there between FOL and HL. And don't forget to Judge Light. Those little bits of healing add up fast, and with the Judgement of the Pure talent, it will speed up your cast time for a short while.

Get the Glyph for Holy Light that gives it a little bit of splash healing, there's no downside to it. And the Libram of Renewal to reduce the mana cost of Holy Light.

I never got to do much tanking, and only DPS when I'm soloing. Plus those two roles are in less demand due to the glut of emoknights right now.

[Fordel]

Here ya go.  He's basically got nothing.  Hasn't run anything harder than Violet Hold. 

This is my inner poopsocker speaking:  (Seriously, no Sheathe of Light? , How did you manage that? )


If you want to stay Ret,

• Respec into something like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVfbtbIucrsguAo
• If you are DPS'ing, you aren't wearing things with +defense of +dodge etc... So replace those asap
• If you want a basic but solid guideline read this
• If you want more in depth info read this (warning spreadsheets and junk)

Seriously, no Sheathe of Light? 

[WindupAtheist]

Here ya go.  He's basically got nothing.  Hasn't run anything harder than Violet Hold.

Okay, regarding gear. Defense and dodge mean nothing to a ret paladin, and haste is of very little utility since it won't really improve anything but your autoattack. Some of your quest reward choices were suboptimal, but that hardly matters since it's just quest junk.

Regarding spec. Lose divine purpose, pursuit of justice, eye for an eye, those last 10 points from prot, and swap deflection for benediction. Dump all the points you've freed up into pretty much every other ret talent. See how that works for you.

(Fordel responded as I was typing, but I'll post this anyway.)

EDIT: Move 2 points from Pursuit of Justice to Vindication (Who needs to run 15% faster in PVE?) and Fordel's link is my ret's spec precisely.

[Fordel]

You can pry Pursuit of Justice from my cold dead hands! 


-followup edit-

Vindication is a purely PvP talent, FYI. It does jack and shit against NPC's 90% of the time.

PoJusitce is actually very useful in PvE, run out of the fire faster, run back to the mob faster and be less annoyed by disarming mobs when solo farming.

[WindupAtheist]

Nothing you just described sounds "very useful" to me. I'll take my 20% off all the stats of everything I ever fight that doesn't have a boss tag over waiting for a fight that requires me to run out of fire, and then running out of it 0.15 or 0.3 seconds faster when it only ticks once per second anyway.

[Kail]

Seriously, no Sheathe of Light? 

I was operating under the impression that Paladin offensive spells scaled off of AP instead of SP, so Sheathe of Light looked like a really weirdly placed healing talent.

Some of my gear's got tank stuff on it because I was thinking that DPS might not be terribly in demand for the endgame, so I was trying to keep a few different sets of gear around (I've got a set of +spellpower/int gear kicking around, too, and it's almost as awesome as my current outfit).

Reading through the links, now, thanks...  So, for Ret, would I just stack +str, then, or should I try to get the caps on +hit/+expert first?

[Azaroth]

Okay, here's the quick lowdown. I'm one of the most prominent DPS Pallies on my server, I top raid charts and I pulled 3.2k sustained DPS my last 25 man raid.

Your rotation is what we call a FCFS (First Come First Serve).

Judgement > Crusader Strike > Divine Storm > Consecrate

Lead with judgement, pop the rest. As your cooldowns come up, it's FCFS. But judgement always has a priority.

Consecrate will drain your mana. If you want to DPS as a Paladin, get used to being an OOMadin. I suggest superior mana pots (the cheap ones), and you have to pop Divine Purpose every damn time it's up. I'll also tend to keep JoTW up in non-serious situations.

As your gear gets better, you become an aggro monster. Get a threat meter, a good tank for trash, and l2Salvation. Congrats, you are also now a DPS monster. ESPECIALLY on trash. ESPECIALLY on undead trash.

That being said, Paladins lag behind on non-undead single target bosses. This will be improved somewhat with a small but significant DPS buff to SoB/SoTM.

Which reminds me - Seal of Blood/Seal of The Martyr is your PvE DPS Seal.

No, no other class has to bounce 10 and 33% of his/her damage back into their own faces to DPS competitively. Get used to it. There are also quite a few fights where you'll need to switch to SoComm and watch as your DPS suffers, because taking large amounts of damage from your DPS isn't an option. Off the top of my head, Loatheb is a major one. I switch off during Sapphiron as well. There's just too much healing to be done in that fight to put extra burden on the healers.

Here is a list of obtainable Heroic and Rep Reward items for a pre-raiding DPS set. I'll list the item and the boss or reputation very quickly. Put this gear together and your DPS will dominate right into raiding.

Spiked Titansteel Helm - Crafted (put the mats for Titansteel bars together yourself and find a guildie with cooldowns IMO, cost me around 700g)

Pendant of the Outcast Hero - Badge rewards (one of the few things you should buy with heroism badges)

Pauldrons of Lightning Revenant - Normal Halls of Lightning (start stacking +hit now, plz - your cap is about 290.. reach it)

Cloak of Bloodied Waters - BoE Blue from Heroic Gundrak. Pick one up. Great cape.

Breastplate of Undeath - Heroic Drak'tharon

Vengeance Bindings - BoE Craftable

Gauntlets of Dragon Wrath - Heroic Oculus

Flame-Bathed Steel Girdle - Heroic Nexus

Staggering Legplates - Heroic Utgarde Keep

Death-Inured Sabatons - Exalted, Knights of the Ebon Blade

Band of Frosted Thorns - Heroic Nexus

Hemorrhaging Circle - Heroic Gun'drak

Mirror of Truth - Emblems of Heroics

Incisor Fragment - Heroic Drak'tharon



For your weapon, you want to go to either Heroic Halls of Stone for the Sword of Justice, or Heroic Halls of Lightning for the Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver. The second is better.

As far as gems, ALWAYS GEM FOR STRAIGHT STR. If that means giving up a piddly +4 haste for an overall STR gain, do it. My gear is fully clad with red STR gems, except for the ones I need to have as blue for my meta.

Congrats. You now DPS.

[Merusk]

Seriously, no Sheathe of Light? 

I was operating under the impression that Paladin offensive spells scaled off of AP instead of SP, so Sheathe of Light looked like a really weirdly placed healing talent.

Some of my gear's got tank stuff on it because I was thinking that DPS might not be terribly in demand for the endgame, so I was trying to keep a few different sets of gear around (I've got a set of +spellpower/int gear kicking around, too, and it's almost as awesome as my current outfit).

Reading through the links, now, thanks...  So, for Ret, would I just stack +str, then, or should I try to get the caps on +hit/+expert first?

 DKs scale purely on AP, Paladins still are some hybrid mix of Spellpower and AP.   You get more than enough +spell if you're just stacking strength once you add sheathe of light.   Don't mess with +expertise, as you're DPS and should always be attacking from the side on dragons and behind on everything else, where they can't dodge or parry.

  Hit is less of a priority than Str, so don't focus too hard on raising it and use gems if you feel you have to have some more. (imo)  I've only got +3.75% hit on my DK and I do swell on DPS, only dipping on bosses but not by a very appreciable level.  (I drop to 2nd or 3rd but still put out 2500 dps with some midline gear.)

[Jack9]

Most helpful and accurate Prot Paladin info and discussion:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/

Misinformation is plentiful and abounds in such dark recesses as tankadin.com, elitistjerks.com, and many more.
Given the extreme opinions based on fantasy in EJ forums, I'm not even sure why they are considered good resources for other classes.

[Merusk]

EJ was fantastic for a while, and then word got out and idiots from the main forums flooded there.  You know the type, guys holding an opinion based on empirical evidence with no data just "Well it doesn't work that way for me! No, I don't have any WWS to link you to that's for stupid people."

[Gobbeldygook]

• Respec into something like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVfbtbIucrsguAo

My only critique is the presence of kings; you'll probably be putting Might on yourself in 5-man content, so seals of the pure will be a larger personal DPS boost.

---

PoJ is almost always a DPS boost.  In BC, every melee DPS but those with talent-based runspeed and the worst of worst scrubs enchanted their boots with +runspeed.  Increasing your time on target is an extremely big deal (FUCK YOU SAPPHIRON YOU ANACHRONISTIC MELEE-HATING COCKSUCKER) and also matters a lot in PVP when chasing down tanks/other players.

No, no other class has to bounce 10 and 33% of his/her damage back into their own faces to DPS competitively,

Shadow priests.

For your weapon, you want to go to either Heroic Halls of Stone for the Sword of Justice, or Heroic Halls of Lightning for the Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver. The second is better.

I would put in the mace from the argent crusade or the sword from ebon blade as a stop-gap measure before you luck out on drops; you need to get Revered with ebon blade anyway for your head enchant and the sword has amazing itemization.

[WindupAtheist]

My only critique is the presence of kings; you'll probably be putting Might on yourself in 5-man content, so seals of the pure will be a larger personal DPS boost.

You're gonna DPS with SoR and/or SoV?

[Dewdrop]

attacking from the side on dragons and behind on everything else, where they can't dodge or parry.

Mobs and NPC's absolutely dodge attacks from behind and the side. Attacking there only eliminates parry. Expertise may still not be that great depending on class, but 6% or so dodge reduction removes it from the table. On my DK i have 6.5% in expertise, 8.23% on hit (alot of data is showing miss rate on +3 mobs is actually 8%, NOT 9% as it always has been) and then stack STR. I haven't had a dodge or a miss in 3 raids on any thing but Icy Touch, which is a spell and has a higher hit cap.

tl;dr - NPC's can dodge from anywhere. Expertise is NOT worthless.

[K9]

Do any mobs block?

Players cannot block from behind, nor parry. Behind is generally a better place to be given the number of frontal-cone type attacks that mobs also do, dragon's being a notable exception to this rule.

[Merusk]

tl;dr - NPC's can dodge from anywhere. Expertise is NOT worthless.

Huh, I did not know that, thanks.  I thought the rules were the same for PCs and NPCs on that.

[Dewdrop]

Theres actually one of those WoW ProTips when you are logging in that says that PC's cannot dodge from behind but NPC's can. So, yea, gear accordingly. If you are getting dodged 6% of the time, adding some expertise can represent a rather decent bump in overall dps.

[Dewdrop]

Do any mobs block?

Yes, but its pretty trivial when they do and I believe their blocks fall under the same ruleset as PC's, can only block from in front.

Also, if you ever do Malygos, he doesnt have a tailswipe, feel free to stand behind him!

[Montague]

To get back to Kail's questions... (you're on my server btw, but I'm Alliance)

Retribution - Gear dependent, like any melee class.

Protection - Get defense capped (540) and as much stamina as you can get your hands on. You don't have to worry about getting uncrushable any more.

Holy - Not as gimped as everyone makes it out to be but it is the most challenging of the healing classes in 5 mans.

In regards to your DPS as Ret, you have 3 strikes going against you:

1. Your spec is missing a lot of DPS talents.
2. Your gear isn't very good, and what you do have is all over the place.
3. You haven't gemmed, enchanted, and enhanced your items properly.

Spec advice:

Deflection is worthless to you if you're DPSing, take Benediction.
Take Improved Blessing of Might for yourself. Kings on everyone else.
Crusade is a must. 6% DPS increase on most mobs. Get rid of Vindication (PVP talent) and Eye for an Eye (PVP talent)
Art of War is a must. Dump Divine Purpose, Imp Ret Aura is very optional.
Sheath of Light is a must. The spellpower adds to all your damage spells except for Crusader Strike, plus allows you to heal yourself in an emergency.
Dump Anticipation. I like Divine Guardian (party-wide shield wall when you bubble) and Guardian's Favor.

Gear advice:

Strength is the best stat cost-wise for Ret, but the total AP it grants is the most important. Each point of Strength you get grants you 2.15 Attack Power, so if you find a piece with + 40 Strength vs 100 Attack Power, the AP item is better because the Strength item = 86 attack power. It looks like you're stacking Strength over AP no matter the amount of Strength, and that's not the way to do it.

For very quick upgrades, find a Blacksmith to make you some blue Savage Saronite PVP plate pieces. Not too expensive and better than most quest greens, and get them enchanted/enhanced. You're missing around 250 AP just from not being enchanted.

Put Bold Bloodstones (+Strength) in your gem sockets, socket bonus be damned (unless its a really good socket bonus).

Get the cloak from honored with the Argent Crusade, and as was said before get the Runeblade from Knights of the Ebon Blade. Get the Whalebone Carapace from the Kalu'ak Quartermaster (if you did the quests for them you should be honored, easily).

For an idea of what you should be shooting for, we're about to start heroics and here's my character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Dominicus - I have a ways to go for some upgrades still, but right now I'm doing around about 1800-2K DPS in level 80 instances.

[fatboy]

You're missing around 250 AP just from not being enchanted.

I am pretty much in the exact same boat as the author, so I too appreciate all the advice.

What enchants are you speaking of?

[Azaroth]

List of affordable and optimized enchants (I'm assuming you're not sitting on 8k gold):

Head - [Arcanum of Torment]
Knights of the Ebon Blade - Revered

Shoulders - [Lesser Inscription of the Axe]
The Sons of Hodir - Honored

Cape - [Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]

Chest - [Enchant Chest - Super Stats]

Bracers - [Enchant Bracer - Brawn]

Gloves - [Enchant Gloves - Major Strength]

Legs - [Icescale Leg Armor] (this is the expensive one, but spend some cash on it)

Boots - [Enchant Boots - Assault]

2h Weapon - [Enchant 2H Weapon - Greater Savagery]


The WOTLK upgrades from the enchants on this list are generally going to cost you massive amounts of gold for very small advantages over their cheaper alternatives.

Now, if you end up with your tier 7.5 piece from Naxx 25 and there isn't any upgrade currently in the game AND you happen to be sitting on thousands and thousands of gold, the list is a bit different.

[Falwell]

Also look into a decent two-hander. There are a few very, vrey decent ones that are readily accessible for rets..

1) Axe from Heroic HoL, Loken: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37852

Excellent starting ret two-hander that shouldn't take you too much work to get. Although, if you get shit luck like I did trying to get my +def trinket for my DK (rerolled for LK) you have my sympathies.

2) 10 man Nax: Kel'Thuzad: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39417

Closes in on best in slot for a ret. Not quite as much sting as the ones from the 25 version, but it's got all the stats that you rets are looking for, in abundance.

[Fordel]

• Respec into something like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVfbtbIucrsguAo

My only critique is the presence of kings; you'll probably be putting Might on yourself in 5-man content, so seals of the pure will be a larger personal DPS boost.

As mentioned, Seals of the Pure won't do anything for Ret Seals. PvE Ret Paladins have the spare points, so the onus of kings is usually put on them.

Holy is better off not taking it for more +crit talents and Protection has a blessing of its own that's often equally in demand. Might is the easiest blessing to cover for with someone else as well.

There also isn't all that much else to put those 5 points into. :)





As to the other Paladin specs, Protection is a perfectly fun and viable spec to play (My Paladin is protection in fact).

Holy is not.

A Holy Paladin compared to the other healers, is a lot like say, a Pre-WotLK Warrior trying to AE tank. SURE, you *could* do it... but it took 5 times the effort for half the effect of your counterpart AND it wasn't any fun to actually do. I would stay away from Holy unless you enjoy frustration or have pressing need for another healer.

[Azaroth]

I tanked as a prot warrior in BC (and before). I agree, possibly the most unfun thing I've ever done in a video game.

With all of the moving required in WOTLK, my short stint as a holy paladin was nearly as frustrating. If it weren't for holy shock, you may as well just /wrist before you spec holy. I hear H HoL is basically impossible.

[Hayduke]

Yeah paladins don't have any AE or hot heals, so fights where they have to move are pretty terrible.  On the other hand when they can stay still and focus on one target they do very well.  I don't know much about rets, but they can do a serious amount of damage.  In our 25-mans it's always our BM hunter (by quite a bit), a ret, and in third is usually three people changing places (blood DK, rogue and me a frost DK).

[Fordel]

Once the next patch goes in, and they remove the threat component of Judge of Light, Ret Paladins should do more raid healing then Holy Paladins 


I'm only half joking 

[WindupAtheist]

So I just looked at the patch notes. Bla bla bla, no DPSing from inside bubble. Okay, whatever. But this:

Hand of Reckoning(NEW): Available on trainers at level 16. It’s a 30 yard range taunt that causes Holy damage.

Yay!

[Azaroth]

Yeah. You get a single target taunt in return for your arena viability.

Yay!

[WindupAtheist]

I've never done arena and have no plans to. /shrug

[K9]

Isn't Enchant Weapon - Bezerking better than Enchant Weapon - Massacre?

[Azaroth]

I've never done arena and have no plans to. /shrug

Fair enough. Doesn't directly affect you at the moment so it doesn't matter. Just saying - they're completely douching the viability of your class in what they've made a major part of the game, and it's not really all that cool.

[Phred]

The WOTLK upgrades from the enchants on this list are generally going to cost you massive amounts of gold for very small advantages over their cheaper alternatives.

Check the AH for scrolls on the new enchants. On my server the prices are dropping like crazy because of all the enchanters skilling up on scrolls and then dumping them for whatever they can get for them. The price on weapon and armor vellums dropped significantly lately for the same reason. Other than resources, almost everything you can sell is dropping in price on my server and even ore is dropping, though much slower.

[WindupAtheist]

Aren't the scrolled ones on the AH just the ones with no level req, ie shitty?