SOE adds item shop to EQ, EQ2

[sam, an eggplant]

From Lum, who posted the news with a much catchier subject.

My take is that the current implementation selling only cosmetic items and XP potions is pretty much OK, but allowing "station credits" to be transferred between players is likely to destroy the in-game economy, as would adding non-cosmetic items to the shop-- and that's the next step.

If I played EQ/EQ2, I would probably quit over this.

[SnakeCharmer]

Is this across all servers or just the station enhanced ones?  (edit) Because they've had RMT of sorts on certain servers for a while now.

[sam, an eggplant]

All servers for EQ and EQ2. That's another reason why I feel this is a bad play. The old station exchange was an awful ideal too, but at least it was restricted to exchange-only servers. You had to opt-in. There's no way to opt out of this.

Station exchange didn't create items, either. It just allowed players to utilize out of game resources to trade for resources generated via normal processes. This is a real honest-to-goodness item shop; its inventory was created from nothing and sold for real money.

[Soln]

pretty sure Lum predicted this in 2001-2

[Venkman]

I love the "internet explodes" rage. Please. If this was 2003 maybe. Nowadays nobody but the players of <2004 era MMOs really care all that much. There's a whole crop of people that have shown up since without anywhere near the biases us veterans have long had. We're talking tweens playing mtx games with real money.

Besides, this is EQ2. How many people even here are playing that with anywhere near the fervor or consistency as Eve or WoW?

As to the impact on the game, yea, just as it is in most games that use this model (though most of those are f2p+mtx not gouge-with-subscription/get-them-again-mtx) rely on XP boosts, and maybe some buffs or cosmetics. Nobody is selling Tier 7 raid gear for a few pennies. That would substantively devalue the time-/social-based achievement.

[tazelbain]

Damn.  I was thinking of going back.

[sam, an eggplant]

It's EQ1 too. Can you imagine how hardcore those guys must be to still play EQ in dec 2008?

It's not OK to do something like this years after release. It shows a marked lack of respect for their customers much akin to (hush, now!) the SWG NGE.

[SnakeCharmer]

Damn.  I was thinking of going back.

How would it negatively affect your enjoyment?

The way I see it, who cares.  If someone wants to spend real world cash for virtual trinkets, even xp gain potions, so be it.  A fool and their money are soon parted.

[sam, an eggplant]

The usual reasons. Devalues my own achievements, makes me feel like a chump for playing the "normal" way, will damage the economy once trading is in place, slippery slope, and so on. Do we really need to go over that list on F13? Lets go back to being snarky cantankerous smelly old bastards and take grim delight in schadenfreude since we quit EQ when that goatfucker Abashi was hired. The moral high ground, as always, is located whereever we decide to take a seat.

[SnakeCharmer]

The usual reasons. Devalues my own achievements, makes me feel like a chump for playing the "normal" way, will damage the economy once trading is in place, slippery slope, and so on. Do we really need to go over that list on F13? Lets go back to being snarky cantankerous smelly old bastards and take grim delight in schadenfreude since we quit EQ when that goatfucker Abashi was hired. The moral high ground, as always, is whereever we decide to sit down.

LOL!

I guess I can sort of see your point.  Suppose my viewpoint on it is different because my outlook on playing an MMO is different.  The rewards (The Sword of Doom or whatever) are just side effects of doing something I enjoy.  I don't worry what other players have, or how fast they advance, etc.  I used to, though, don't know what happened.

[Engels]

I dunno about EQ1, but this makes some sense for EQ1. How many of you old school EQ1 players wanted to level up a new alt to fit X role in your guild/raid group, but were dreading the 3 weeks it'd take you to grind your ass up to raid capable status, nevermind getting equipped so you just wouldn't be a perpetual mana sponge at a raid?

[sam, an eggplant]

How many of you old school EQ1 players wanted to level up a new alt to fit X role in your guild/raid group, but were dreading the 3 weeks it'd take you to grind your ass up to raid capable status,

Sure, because there are no other possible solutions to that dilemma other than selling XP potions for real money. Mechanisms like sidekicking/mentoring and refer-a-friend or simply lowering the XP requirements to level wouldn't address that very real issue.

Lets not be pedantic assholes, OK? This move was clearly driven by revenue.

[Numtini]

as would adding non-cosmetic items to the shop-- and that's the next step.

Maybe they are idiots and it will be the next step, but in Asian games I've played with item shops that's NOT the next step. They can extract more cash on junk than they can on selling actual phat loot. And the economy is different, but it actually seems to enhance the player to player economy a bit if you have two different kinds of currency. It works very nicely in Puzzle Pirates.

OTOH I agree with Lum that this is really questionable for a subscription based game. It was stupid of SOE to do this before WoW did.

[Hawkbit]

As long as it's limited to fluff and +XP limited time abilities, it doesn't bother me.  When one can buy +5 sword of whatever with real money, I'm out. 

Oh wait, I don't play either of these games regularly.   

[tazelbain]

I don't think it'll end at just xp potions.  I pay a $15 subscription to play a premium game. If there stuff to purchase to make it "better" than I am not playing the premium game.

[Grimwell]

It was stupid of SOE to do this before WoW did.

Ok, I'm avoiding comments in line on most of this since you are all entitled to your own opinions and I can't do anything save for come off as a corporate shill on this topic; but if you will forgive this one intrusion...

Why is doing this before WoW stupid, but after a good thing?" Innovation -- Numtini endorsed only at Blizz???"

This is not a 1 + 1 = 2 statement. If it's stupid now, it's stupid when WoW does it. If it's not stupid when WoW does it, it's not stupid now.

Can you provide some more detail there?

[sam, an eggplant]

One aspect many of you are missing is that SOE plans to allow players to trade station credits. So I could indeed sell my longsword+5 to you in-game for real money. That's the inflection point where the economy is significantly impacted. To what degree is difficult to say; I probably exaggerated before when I said it would be destroyed. EVE online has something similar with real money buying game time or something, and its economy appears to function. But it'll definitely change, and for the worse.

[shiznitz]

I would be surprised if anyone - a single person - quits over this. People playing EQ2 at this stage are in it pretty deep. If you are a soloer, then why do you care about this? Boosting exp gain sounds pretty nice! If you are a raider, then why do you care about this? If you are an aspirational raider, you might actually like it depending on what becomes available. One can already by cloaks and mounts for real money through LoN and no one screamed about quitting over that.

[Grimwell]

One aspect many of you are missing is that SOE plans to allow players to trade station credits.

This is not the actual case. The currency is not currently transferable. You buy it, and it's yours. The FAQ states the intent for it to later become something that can be given as a gift, but that's not currently a feature, and is not exactly trading credits. The items you can buy are not able to be traded either, so you can't buy one and give it to a friend for a million plat. You buy it, you get it, you keep it.

The system is also closed. So if you gifted me 50000 in Station Cash for my +5 Sword of Epic Doom (at some future point when that's an option), I can't turn that into actual dollars. I'd still just have a gift of Station Cash that I can only use for items in the marketplace.

Guess I'm a liar, but I didn't want this incorrect statement to be interpreted as accurate. If you are not going to like a system, make sure you don't like it for the actual features it offers.

[Slyfeind]

I can't imagine this impacting me at all. I went back to EQ to play the old fashioned way, and I can still do that. (Well, mostly.) If these things were mandatory, I would be quite quite bothered, but they're not, so I'm not. Other people can have fun with their XP potions. My drood is doing just fine on his own for now.

[sam, an eggplant]

The system is also closed. So if you gifted me 50000 in Station Cash for my +5 Sword of Epic Doom (at some future point when that's an option), I can't turn that into actual dollars. I'd still just have a gift of Station Cash that I can only use for items in the marketplace.

Right, that was my understanding also. Even assuming that the item shop doesn't expand its inventory past cosmetic items and XP potions, we all know that people like to look cool. Rare items like house decorations and clothing had incredible value in UO; the same applies to current titles with players camping spawns for days to get a rare mount or pet in WoW. And of course XP potions let players level faster, they possess immediate intrinsic value. Surely you see how this could impact the economy?

[Lantyssa]

Can you provide some more detail there?

Whomever lets the cat out of the bag with subscription MMOs selling in game items gets to be the bad guy.

SOE doing it first means it's them, and anyone copying is doing just that.  Had WoW done it first, then they could be the bad guy.  Of course SOE'd have to deal with people saying they're only copying Blizzard, but at least it's not another feather in the "SOE hates their players and are money grubbing, soul sucking leeches" cap.

[Grimwell]

Oh sure, it'll do something to the economy. It's no different than when we put a free housing item in a magazine or something... a good number of EQII players go completely bonkers to have all the cool things in their houses, and no guild halls. So those items pick up a good value on the broker for folks who missed the initial option to get them.

Same for the Legends of Norrath loot cards that are housing items. Totally trivial in terms of gameplay, but very important to a lot of people so they carry lots of secondary value.

I think that's a good thing and don't mind how each server sets their own prices based on demand. I just wanted to correct you when it looked like you were saying that it was an open system that could be used to pass real cash around for items. That's the LiveGamer service (yup, formerly Station Exchange) and is still limited to select servers.

Not quite the same thing and it's important to note that. :)

[Merusk]

I don't think it'll end a just xp potions.  I pay a 15 subscription to play a premium game. If there stuff to be purchase to make it "better" than I am not playing the premium game.

Yep.  You're playing the gimped-down version only losers play because they're too cheap/ poor to afford the real XP-gains system.  Much like playing Dungeon Runners on freeplay instead of paying your $4/ month.  You can do it, but you're sure missing out on a lot of stuff.

[Grimwell]

Can you provide some more detail there?

Whomever lets the cat out of the bag with subscription MMOs selling in game items gets to be the bad guy.

SOE doing it first means it's them, and anyone copying is doing just that.  Had WoW done it first, then they could be the bad guy.  Of course SOE'd have to deal with people saying they're only copying Blizzard, but at least it's not another feather in the "SOE hates their players and are money grubbing, soul sucking leeches" cap.

Ahhh, so it's avoiding the negativity.

To be honest, every single Western MMO could push an item marketplace live, and SOE could be the last one and we would still have angry customers. You can't avoid that, so why bother trying to hide behind another company. If it's a good idea and you are going to do it, your timing should not factor in ideas like "Gosh, can we hold this until someone else does it first?"

Angry customers are a constant, for any game and any game company. Not all of them mind you, but a subset. You could announce that you are giving your players a stack of cash for playing the game, and someone would complain that it's should have been twice as large and is a slap in the face.

In my line of work that's everyday and it's really no skin off my back. I prefer happy people, but my team's job is to make sure we do our level best to inform people about what's happening in the game (as soon as the plan allows) and then making sure they know how that something is going to work to the best of our ability. If we tell them those details, truthfully, and they aren't happy -- it's still a job done right.

Other folks get to worry more about reception :)

[Numtini]

Why is doing this before WoW stupid, but after a good thing?" Innovation -- Numtini endorsed only at Blizz???"

It's not about innovation, EQ2 has led that in every way for years. It's about perception. Bluntly SOE has a horrible reputation. Deserved or not I don't want to argue, but it's there. Particularly a reputation for being greedy and putting $$ over players. On the other side, no matter how long the queues are, no matter how many centuries it is between expansions, and no matter how many of their new innovations are taken directly from EQ2, people love Blizz absolutely to death.

This was so not a "go Blizz yay" comment. I'm an EQ2 player and its twice the game WoW will ever be. It's that Blizz can get away with things that I think others can't. And if I remember, there was some evidence floating around that they're planning to do the same anyway. Let them take the hit from players being pissed about it before they've even seen it.

[Grimwell]

Thanks for that, I better understand your point. :)

[sam, an eggplant]

I prefer happy people, but my team's job is to make sure we do our level best to inform people about what's happening in the game (as soon as the plan allows) and then making sure they know how that something is going to work to the best of our ability. If we tell them those details, truthfully, and they aren't happy -- it's still a job done right.

That's a pretty simplistic way to describe community management. It's so oversimplified that I'd entirely disagree. The CM team's job is not just to facilitate communication between the suits/devs and players, but to do so in a politic manner. Abashi got his point across just fine, but he lacked the soft skills to do the job effectively.

Obviously it wasn't your decision, and nobody's blaming you for it. Or maybe they are. Hell, they probably are on the official boards, but we aren't. Your closing statement stuck out. As a CM the players' reception is obviously your responsibility. Otherwise what are you there for, your sweet ass?

[Venkman]

This is the problem with applying a player's understanding of how the world should work against the method by which an actual paying job is described. Grimwell is not making that shit up. That's probably in the Job Description

Sure, because there are no other possible solutions to that dilemma other than selling XP potions for real money. Mechanisms like sidekicking/mentoring and refer-a-friend or simply lowering the XP requirements to level wouldn't address that very real issue.

Lets not be pedantic assholes, OK? This move was clearly driven by revenue.

Yes there are other methods, but yes this is driven by revenue. SOE has always led the charge in applying experimental methods of microtransactions. This is the same company that charged for features on guild forms, were one of the first to charge for name changes and character transfers, one of the first with an all access pass, and so on and so on.

That's why I don't get neither the anger nor the surprise. Jeezus guys. This is SOE. Say what you will about EQ2 but SOE has never been a company about making games just for the sheer joy of doing so. They're a division of a multinational public company. If they can prove people will pay for something, they actually are required by charter to their shareholders to go do it.

And the thing about WoW doing this first and not being evil? Come on. This is not their method. Their philosophy is to make people pay what they can but retain them with improved gameplay. How many MMOs have made it EASIER to level up over the years? And that's along many examples. This doesn't mean they're altruistic. Far from it. They too are a public multinational. But Blizzard uses the better game=more accounts=more money formula. SOE has always been more ways to collect money=more money formula.

[sinij]

People should care. If this succeeds this pretty much means that all future games will be designed to encourage** purchasing. Good design will be about how to design bottlenecks into the games so people shell out more cash. Hell levels, impossible drops, rare spawn camps - they will all come back with vengeance. This is HUGE setback for the industry.


** By encourage I mean making it uberable until you cave in and shell out more money to get around designed-in suck.

[sinij]

How would it negatively affect your enjoyment?

Glad you asked.

MMORPGs are business, and like all businesses they are looking to maximize profits. How do you go about maximizing profits? You get as many people to pay as much as you can. Right now "as many people" is pretty much nailed down, "as much" is what they are trying to change. Sure it all starts small, but corporate greed has no bounds and we all soon be boiling frogs.

If this succeeds expect future mmorpg to have "buy out of suck" designed-in bottlenecks. Your subscription will be monthly fee + mandatory purchases.

[Grimwell]

I definitely over simplified sam. You win there.

My intended point was that it's impossible to please all of your customers at any one given moment in time. Some of them are going to be jubilant, others are going to be angry, and most are going to just be playing the game and wondering what all the extra chatter in level chat is about.

Given that reality, a Community Manager's first responsibility is to focus on getting the community solid information about things like this, as fast as a corporate timeline will permit. We can't worry that some folks are going to grab the pitchforks and torches -- that's inevitible. We can worry about making sure our information is accurate to the moment, clear and easy to understand, and immediately useful to the reader.

The skill in the job is knowing how to do that without angering folks who are not currently angry. If my team had simply gone to the EQ and EQII communities this morning and posted "Station Cash, now live, deal with it." I would expect a huge spike in the number of angry people, most of which would be angry over the nature of the delivery and not the actual content.

Instead we were able to go live with a full FAQ, links to a live website, and make it clear what was happening, and how to learn more about it.

From that point, where we have delivered clean data to the community, the job reverses to a reporting function. We start collecting feedback, positive and negative, and relate that to the appropriate internal teams who can act on the feedback, or at least consider it on future renditions. If there are questions that we can answer in the community, we take care of that too, but it's less about trying to convince everyone to be happy, and more about making sure they know the actual details and can make informed valuations about the topic of the day.

Some people are not good at this, and others are. It's definitely a specific skill set to be able to bring people news and deliver it well, but that's what we do.

If we pretended we could somehow tell every customer something to make them shit flowers in joy over whatever it was that made them angry, we'd never have time to just tell them the truth of things and help them understand that so they know the real score. 

Hopefully that makes some sense? I think I need to go blog some tonight. You have me going now. :P

[Grimwell]

If this succeeds expect future mmorpg to have "buy out of suck" designed-in bottlenecks. Your subscription will be monthly fee + mandatory purchases.

Look to Asia for the realities there. Companies that make it almost mandatory to buy things to get ahead in their games do not lead in that market. The big revenue comes from a more benign design model.

[sinij]

I don't think there is any sugarcoating to what amounts industry-harming money grab. No, nobody blames you personally for this, but you represent company that did this and that where blame is.

[sinij]

Look to Asia for the realities there. Companies that make it almost mandatory to buy things to get ahead in their games do not lead in that market. The big revenue comes from a more benign design model.

There is no degrees to this - companies will do as much of it as they can get away with. If you think that your product worth extra - raise your subscription fee. Money grab is money grab.