Finding a Good Guild is Tough!

[Draegan]

Here's the zen koan about this game: there is nothing more hardcore than sucking. By that I mean that it's better to be with hardcore folks raiding two to three nights a week than wiping for four months on Archimonde. Trust me, don't be scared. The "casual" raiding guilds have far more drama and spend far more alloted time sucking ass than the serious raiding guilds. We were top 100 in BC (I wasn't, since I was on hiatus at the time) with three nights a week, sometimes two. Compare with my old "casual" raiding guild who spent four to five nights a week, every week, to down Illidan a week before the 3.0/nerf patch.

Which would you rather do? Debate semantics in your head about casual vs hardcore or just bite the bullet and try something new?

I've been in both types of guilds.  So trust me I know both ends of the spectrum.  I can't play this game anymore with schedules.  Be here X,Y and Z for whatever amount of hours and then you need to have 80% attendance.  This has burned me out of the game so many times.

I want to be in a guild that raids 2-5 times a week but doesn't mind if I only sign up for 2 days one week, and 4 days next.  I don't want a casual family guild.  I want a guild of people who play the game just like me.  Used to be a catass, but play more relaxed now.

[Rasix]

I imagine he doesn't have the time flexibility to be in a hardcore raiding guild (I don't). They're a better playing experience, that's for sure. Not bad socially, but the environment started to creep me out after a while.

I think I know what you mean, but I wouldn't mind hearing you expand. I have a friend who... Well she's a nice girl, but to be perfectly frank she's a total poopsocker. I've listened to her talk about things, even sat in her guild's ventrilo, and yeah. Past a certain level of hardcore, people are just sort of creepy. Even if they're friendly and polite, it's like they're members of some weird religion you're not a part of.

There's just this sense that for them WoW is really, really important to the detriment of everything else around them.  This is going to come across as a lot of stone throwing from a glass house, because, hell, I was there.  I just never really felt like I was part of it all and when they moved servers, I stayed behind and haven't been in another serious raid guild since.   Sure, I liked playing with competent, no nonsense individuals.  Instance runs were breezes: you could always find a tank and a healer when you needed one and very few people actually stunk at their class.  In comparison, any attempt at a pug or even non guild group was painful.  Painful enough that the first time I resubscribed I hopped back in the guild hoping I could attempt to raid with them without throwing myself completely into it (this was before they moved).

Most everyone in the guild fit into a few categories: military (ex or not deployed), college or high school kid, or Mom's basement dweller. Not a whole lot of regular jobs, almost no jobs that would require a college degree.  This helped them play A LOT.  There were a lot of players that had over 120 days played before the game was even a year old.  Most married couples were not on their first marriage.  Most stories of why they were on another marriage were due to MMOs.  Most children were seemingly treated as nuisances (the screaming in vent background stuff was interesting) or were also in the guild (a couple teens). The college students and teens didn't go out a whole lot.  Discussed weekend plans just included Saturday's raid and Sunday's optional raid.  They wanted Friday night raids.  They pushed for Friday night raids.  What college student pushes for this?

This is all perception and what I could pick up from Vent and guild chat.  These people were very forthcoming about their lives.  Most of it triggered various emotions in me, none of them terribly positive.  I could be completely wrong, but it all just felt like most were on a slow downward decent in their lives and WoW was not helping it.  And something else: none of them played other games.  It was just WoW all of the time.  Still, most of them were enthusiastic and upbeat their entire time I knew them in the game. That's where it started to creep me out.  This was a highly successful guild that was doing a lot of server firsts.  They were succeeding greatly in WoW but their lives seemed like slow motion car wrecks.. and they couldn't be happier.

Perhaps the final thing that drew me away from all of it was when there was a guild meeting to address some of the negativity surrounding some struggles breaking through in AQ40 and some uncharacteristic wipes in BWL.  There were a lot of different ways things could have been addressed and a lot of issues that could have been tackled, but overwhelming request and that was soundly approved was to become even more hardcore.  One more required day of raiding per week, probationary status starts the week you miss your required raid dates (no excuses), tighter restricitons on specs, and changes to DKP that favored the poopsockers.  But this goes beyond the creepy, this is when I went from feeling uncomfortable to feeling like a complete outsider.

[Slayerik]

My name is Ethan, and I am a WoW-oholic.

I led a group of friends gaming that turned into a raiding guild for the first year of WoW. Everything in my life suffered from it. I neglicted my children, was nearly divorced, my job performance went down the shitter, and my conversational skills (in RL) suffered even. It was to the point where if someone I was hanging out with didn't play Wow, it was hard to relate or find anything to talk about.

Looking back, I would have divorced me. I spent entire nights trying to herd 40 cats in Molten Core and eventually BWL/AQ. Any interuptions to put kids in bed or take care of anything were met with pissing and moaning. Eventually, guild drama ensued, a group of some on my RL friends that were evn more hardcore than I was at the time, split off and cut our guild in half. They went on to form the notorious Overrated, a top raiding guild (that was eventually guild banned for hacking by trash mobs in AQ40). I grew up with their leader, he was my brother's friend as was a stereotypical basement dweller/lifeless dude.

Now I log on, go mining for a bit...or do some questing or run instances. I will never, ever, allow this game to take me over again. The fact that they have made many of the new instances quick is great. I am impressed at their continued efforts to let people get shit done in an hour.

Ok, so...yeah...there you have the story of probably the worst year of my life.

[Draegan]

Oh great this thread turned into an AA meeting.   

[Ratman_tf]

Oh great this thread turned into an AA meeting.   

It's kinda interesting because I'm coming at raiding from the other side of the coin. WoW was the first MMOG I ever hit the level cap in, and the first game I've done anything serious like raiding. Logging in to do a few quests or mine is how I played UO/DAoC/AO, etc... for a long time.

[Draegan]

What's so interesting about it?

[Selby]

Now I log on, go mining for a bit...or do some questing or run instances. I will never, ever, allow this game to take me over again.

I play from 7-7:30PM to 9-9:30PM at night.  Basically I wait until the kid has gone to bed and the other half is either playing or watching her TV shows.  I decided that my kid wasn't going to have his first memories of me trying to get some widget and ignoring him because of it.  My doctor also told me to get out and get a life a few years back otherwise I would die young a huge blob, and that helped too.

The other night we were trying to get the pre-reqs for an instance done and this one character just wasn't doing it efficiently.  I politely excused myself shortly before my scheduled departure because it was taking so long and I wasn't going to go to bed mad or angry about someone else's playing style.  I also wasn't going to get sucked into a new instance 20m before bedtime either.

[Morfiend]

My AA story.

I also got addicted in a major way for a while after BC released.

Some internet friends and RL friends started a raid guild with the goal of being one of the better guilds on the server. We ended up being in the top 500 guilds in the world according to wowjutsu.

During this time, my whole life went downhill.

I started leaving work earlier and earlier. I was scheduled to 5:30, but thats when raids started, so I started leaving work at 5:15 and rushing home, and then 5:00, and  I kept pushing it back, finally I was leaving work around 4:00 and staying up late so I was getting in late in the morning. It is a testament to how relaxed my job is that I still have it.

Also, I would get home from work, and play until dinner time. I would wolf my food down, and then rush back on the computer. My GF complained a lot, and I think I made her very unhappy. I regret that a lot. When we would go out, all I could think of was how long we had to be out, and when I could get home and log on again. It really sickens me thinking back on it.

I completely understand that feeling of talking to one of my friends who did play WoW and just having nothing in common to talk about any more. That was sad. When I finally quit the game, as I could see it slowly destroying my life, I had this weird hollow feeling in my gut, like I was lost and alone and didn't know what to do with myself.

I promised myself I will never do that again. I refuse to ever be in a guild that mandates I be scheduled to the game.

[Montague]

I completely understand that feeling of talking to one of my friends who did play WoW and just having nothing in common to talk about any more. That was sad. When I finally quit the game, as I could see it slowly destroying my life, I had this weird hollow feeling in my gut, like I was lost and alone and didn't know what to do with myself.

This hits a little too close to home.

The wife and I play on the average about 30 hours a week. 3-4 hours a weeknight then the rest over the weekend. I've quit the game a few times, the wife can't bring herself to. Every time I did I found myself with an abundance of time on my hands and a feeling I should be doing something. We have no kids so thats not a consideration, and living in Alaska getting out of the house from October - March isn't really a pleasant option. For the wife its a social thing, all of her Alaskan friends have moved out of state and the friends we have now around here all play WoW.

What's also suffered is my attention span for other games. I played Fallout 3 a couple of times for about 5-6 hours total then dropped it. I used to love playing Civilization-type turn-based games, but I played CIV IV for maybe 3 hours total and tried the fantasy mod for about 20 minutes. The only game to distract me from WoW for any length of time was Rome: Total War for a few days before WOTLK came out.

Now our friends here have paid to transfer to our WoW server and our weekly D&D game is about to fall apart because it seems everyone would rather raid than play PnP. The more I think about it the more pointless it all seems but we'll probably keep on the treadmill for the foreseeable future, pathetic as that is.

[Ratman_tf]

What's so interesting about it?

I'm aware of how far some people get into these games. I had a friend who lost his job in part due to MMOGs. It was never an issue for me, but I'd like to keep it that way. So hearing stories about how someone blew away a year of their lives scheduling raids and whatnot while blowing off real life commitments kinda helps me "keep it real" boyee.

[Morfiend]

Funny this came out recently, and kind of goes with where this thread has gone:
Online Gaming is the number 1 reason for college dropouts.

With the explosion of educational resources available online, one might think parents would be 100% pleased with the internet’s role in their children’s lives. But surveys show just the opposite: a late 2006 survey that showed 59% of parents think the internet has been a totally positive influence in their children’s lives-- down from 67% in 2004.
 
You might find it alarming that one of the top reasons for college drop-outs in the U.S. is online gaming addiction - such as World of Warcraft - which is played by 11 million individuals worldwide.

[Rasix]

What's so interesting about it?

Heh, sorry about that.  Blame WUA, he asked. 

Anyhow, I know the guild you're looking for.  They really don't exist in my experience or are fated for very short life spans.  The guild I'm currently in is close to that, but you'd find the lack of/slow progress frustrating.  Having a hard time getting everyone to 80 (including me), having a hard time from keeping the better players from PUGing with another guild and locking themselves out, and having just a general difficult time with the new content due to a lack of talent among the tanks/healers and general lack of gear for the DPS.  But it's a relaxed atmosphere and raiding does happen and there are people serious about it (I imagine a decent chunk will move on to other guilds).   The "we used to be raiders" guilds generally tend to become raid guilds and just fall back to their earlier tendencies.  Explosion/implosion happens shortly there after.

Still, what you want, I'd love to find. Of course, I'd have to find it starting raids at 10 to 10:30 pm Arizona time or I wouldn't have a chance in hell. Won't happen on a podunk server, that's for sure. 

As to the AA meeting in progress, I'm just glad I tried to toe the line.  Otherwise things could have gotten pretty shitty.  I suppose it's a good think my wife doesn't understand any of this.  Provides a solid anchor back to reality.

[Draegan]

Hell I'm not even 80 myself either. 

[Rasix]

I won't hit 80 for a while.  I really like my DK, it feels like the class I wish there always was in WoW (I really liked SK's in EQ, my roomie played one).

I'm really not liking the outlook for my shaman at 80.  I don't want to heal, and I've done pretty crappy DPS in any group I've been in as enhance.  Don't want to go elemental either as I like to play my druid as balance. 

[WindupAtheist]

I'd rather fuck around raiding casually and sucking with people I like than kick ass with people I'm just tolerating, really. If I just want kickass lewtz I can throw Diablo 2 in.

[WindupAtheist]

My name is Ethan, and I am a WoW-oholic.

Also, what the hell Slay? I always imagined that after UO went carebear, you just spent a few years sitting on some desolate Shadowbane server like an old cowboy, ganking and teabagging the two or three actual newbs that ever actually joined, and telling the tumbleweeds war stories of How It Used To Be Before Trammel, until finally Eve came along. Instead you were busy playing one of the straight-men in the Leeroy Jenkins video while shitting into a Super Big Gulp cup and threatening to break the fuckin' nose of that guy who zerged your Cloudsong.

What the hell man. My whole mental image of you, ruined. 

[Hawkbit]

I belong to a serious casual raiding guild on Earthen Ring.  We've been listed as #4 in advancement on wowjitsu for our server at times, though we're #17 right now. 

We require certain basic levels of TPS/DPS/HPS and gear. Once a person is geared properly they get a much better chance at raiding.  We raid three nights a week, attendance is required for two of those nights.  There are times that we might want to raid but someone else gets chosen, even with lesser gear.  The idea is to give everyone a chance as long as they've put in the effort to meet the standards the guild puts forth with knowing fights and gear. 

We used to run as a guild up until 2 months post-BC that had a philosophy of 'everyone gets to play', which meant that we had people showing up to Kharazan in greens.  It was bullshit, really.  We were always stymied by people that wouldn't take the time to gear/practice/learn to make it better for everyone else.  So we split from them and put some rules in place... and never looked back.  It was a good move, because trying to progress when you have a fight like Aran and A. People can't learn to get out of the blizzard and B.  Can't live through two ticks of it is pretty damn demoralizing to someone who wants to progress. 

Limiting guild size keeps us from waiting too long for a raid spot and only raiding 2 of 3 nights keeps us from being total catass twats.  It's been a good move, overall. 

[Slayerik]

My name is Ethan, and I am a WoW-oholic.

Also, what the hell Slay? I always imagined that after UO went carebear, you just spent a few years sitting on some desolate Shadowbane server like an old cowboy, ganking and teabagging the two or three actual newbs that ever actually joined, and telling the tumbleweeds war stories of How It Used To Be Before Trammel, until finally Eve came along. Instead you were busy playing one of the straight-men in the Leeroy Jenkins video while shitting into a Super Big Gulp cup and threatening to break the fuckin' nose of that guy who zerged your Cloudsong.

What the hell man. My whole mental image of you, ruined. 

lol

Of course I played Shadowbane, well for about 6 months. Then PS. and SWG for a minute.

I've always played on a PVP server at least in Wow ;)

[Fordel]

I'm obligated to mention Cloudsong was never an actual WoW item or event.


Carry on! 

[Dewdrop]

I think its wrong to stereotype 'casual' guilds as sucktards who beat their heads against content and equally unrealistic to categorize 'hardcore' guilds as uber efficient and drama free. At the same time I would not have played wow this long (since original beta) were it not for my guild. We are small, we progress well on 3 nights/week. We don't have super strict attendance or anything. Ive subsequently met nearly everyone in the guild, we have no drama. In short, they make the game fun. WE progressed into Sunwell before the nerf, we have cleared all 25 man content save Malygos so far in LK but i doubt anyone at all would categorize us as 'hardcore.'  We spent more time joking around in vent and making fun of ourselves than we do discussing strats and pointing fingers.

The problem with a guild like this:

They don't recruit.. ever. Every single person in our guild is an original member from 7+ years ago in EQ or a personal friend or family member. We need a Warlock? Oh, my cousin has a warlock on XYZ server, ill get him to transfer over. We have, i think, 6 married couples in the guild (myself and my wife included) and a genuinely fun and enjoyable gaming atmosphere.

Guilds like ours do exist.. You may need some luck to get into one, and your best bet is making friends in 5 mans and know how to play your class. I can't emphasize enough how long ago my wife and I would have been done with WoW were it not for this group of people that I actually (pathetically?) consider friends at this point.

[Nebu]

Guilds like ours do exist.. You may need some luck to get into one, and your best bet is making friends in 5 mans and know how to play your class. I can't emphasize enough how long ago my wife and I would have been done with WoW were it not for this group of people that I actually (pathetically?) consider friends at this point.

Needle meet haystack.  Imagine being an adult that solos.  Do you have any idea how much slime you have to trudge through before finding a guild like yours? 

While guilds like this do exist, they are like winning the lottery.

[WindupAtheist]

There's just this sense that for them WoW is really, really important to the detriment of everything else around them.

May be that subconscious realization that they're not ever spontaneously talking about anything that isn't directly related to the game. I've had that a few times.

Yeah, I think you guys are right. It all sort of surprised me, too. Because the most MMO-absorbed I had been was around 2004 when I was super involved with my old RP guild, but even then we spent half our time in Ventrilo betting UO gold on UFC fights and recording people who were drunk so we could embarass them later. Our leader was a nightclub bouncer, our second in command was a Mohawk indian pub-owner with the personality of Lebowski, and it was just... an interesting group of people. We all played enough hours to put us solidly into poopsock territory, but the game didn't have anything resembling a "raiding progression" so the guild just basically consisted of people who liked each other's company.

But then my friend is telling me stories from their guild, talking shit about who wasn't performing up to par, and who was getting favortism, and who hates who behind their back. Between that and the nature of the Ventrilo chatter it reminded me of someone's overly-factionalized workplace. A bunch of people, half of whom would just as soon not have to put up with one another, united into a whole by their desire to pay their rent get leet gear.

[Tarami]

"Hardcore" RP guilds are very different. Essentially I think that no matter how deep you sink in the RP marshland, you'll still be there to enjoy other people and thrive on the interaction with those around you. It doesn't matter if they are materially interesting, it only matters whether they're interesting as human beings. When you're RPing, the game is only the vehicle for a collaborative effort to have fun. It doesn't measure success and a great RPer is an asset for everyone, shitty RPer and great RPer alike. "Catassing" RP, so to speak, is positive for everyone.

Unless you're a tool. But then you won't find many to RP with on the other hand.

[Montague]

"Hardcore" RP guilds are very different. Essentially I think that no matter how deep you sink in the RP marshland, you'll still be there to enjoy other people and thrive on the interaction with those around you. It doesn't matter if they are materially interesting, it only matters whether they're interesting as human beings. When you're RPing, the game is only the vehicle for a collaborative effort to have fun. It doesn't measure success and a great RPer is an asset for everyone, shitty RPer and great RPer alike. "Catassing" RP, so to speak, is positive for everyone.

Unless you're a tool. But then you won't find many to RP with on the other hand.

Not a fan of heavy RP guilds, and I was in a few. My experience has been mostly:

Shitty progression and bad players.
Repetitive storylines
"Mother, may I?" RP stalemates.
Personality conflicts and drama as RP conflicts get crossed over into RL.
Cliqueish behavior.

Of course, I've also met a fair share of good friends there as well, so YMMV.

[Merusk]

As someone who saw MANY hardcore RP folks in IRC and AOL in the 90s, I disagree that they're any saner than the hardcore gamers.  Hours and hours online playing as queen this or lord that, conversations that wouldn't deviate from their personal storyline, an obsessive need to be online 23/7 lest they miss something 'happening.' Treating all of it as if it had any consequence beyond driving their husbands broke, felonies out the ass. (CC theft/ fraud was rampant on AOL) or broken marriages.

Yeah, they're no saner.

[Tarami]

Not a fan of heavy RP guilds, and I was in a few. My experience has been mostly:

Shitty progression and bad players.
Repetitive storylines
"Mother, may I?" RP stalemates.
Personality conflicts and drama as RP conflicts get crossed over into RL.
Cliqueish behavior.

Of course, I've also met a fair share of good friends there as well, so YMMV.

You just listed atleast two of my favourite reasons for RPing in MMOs.

No, I'll agree that RP guilds aren't any more well-adjusted (don't I know that) than respective gamey guild, but that wasn't really my point either. They are, however, usually not comprised of people who dispise eachother and only stick together for loot. RPers rarely have reason to stay in a guild they don't like, because there's no incentive aside enjoying the others' company (and possibly the guild tag, I suppose.) In relation to what WUA said, a guild that "catasses" RP and stick together will probably do so because they actually do fit together in some perverted way. Might be a little different in UO considering guilds tend to extert a different kind of power there than they can in most dikus.

And yeah, cliques form. That has nothing to do with RP or raiding to do though; that's just how people prefer operating. The desire for loot might just make people cross those territorial boundaries occasionally.

[Xerapis]

We raid three nights a week, attendance is required for two of those nights. 

This is why I will never have all the epic phat lewtz.

I already have a job. I don't need a second one. My attendance in a game should never be required. Expected, sure. Required, never. My boyfriend has that kinda nonsense going on right now. Partially because he's a priest, partially because he's Korean. He'll actually text me to warn me on the nights he has to do shit like clear Naxxrammas. It means he comes home, orders Chinese delivery, puts on his headphones, and raids for about 6 hours straight. I'm like "Didn't you just come home from work in Blizzard CSR for 9 hours only to get on the same game you do CS for so you can 'PLAY' for another six hours?"

Insanity. And he can't understand why I take so long to level and waste my time on secondary skills. After WOTLK launched, his Guild Leader gave him one week to reach 80.

I think I might start some English learning class in Korean WOW. That'll be my guild. I teach you English (chatting and making the occasional correction, which I do anyway even with native speakers cause I'm a dick and isn't it awesome that now I get paid to do it?) and Western gaming culture, you give me raid slots and cool shit. We'll see how it goes.

[Fordel]

The 'required' part is what separates a Hardcore and Casual guild in my mind.

[Koyasha]

One thing I find odd is how people seem to act as though required raid nights are any different than pretty much any other team-based hobby/sport/fun activity.  Although perhaps I'm reading it wrong and it's merely a statement of 'I don't like any sort of activity that would require me to show up', but it doesn't read that way to me. 

However, if you're part of a bowling team, a swim team, golf club, or pretty much any other team based activity, you're just as required to show up, typically.  Few people would be surprised to be removed from their team if they regularly failed to show up to activities where their team members need their presence and count on their participation.  Why, then, do people appear to have the attitude that they should be able to not show up for scheduled raids whenever they don't feel like it, and not be removed from the team?

[MrHat]

One thing I find odd is how people seem to act as though required raid nights are any different than pretty much any other team-based hobby/sport/fun activity.  Although perhaps I'm reading it wrong and it's merely a statement of 'I don't like any sort of activity that would require me to show up', but it doesn't read that way to me. 

However, if you're part of a bowling team, a swim team, golf club, or pretty much any other team based activity, you're just as required to show up, typically.  Few people would be surprised to be removed from their team if they regularly failed to show up to activities where their team members need their presence and count on their participation.  Why, then, do people appear to have the attitude that they should be able to not show up for scheduled raids whenever they don't feel like it, and not be removed from the team?

I think the difference is show up and "show up".

[Merusk]

One thing I find odd is how people seem to act as though required raid nights are any different than pretty much any other team-based hobby/sport/fun activity.  Although perhaps I'm reading it wrong and it's merely a statement of 'I don't like any sort of activity that would require me to show up', but it doesn't read that way to me. 

However, if you're part of a bowling team, a swim team, golf club, or pretty much any other team based activity, you're just as required to show up, typically.  Few people would be surprised to be removed from their team if they regularly failed to show up to activities where their team members need their presence and count on their participation.  Why, then, do people appear to have the attitude that they should be able to not show up for scheduled raids whenever they don't feel like it, and not be removed from the team?

A mental block that separates video games to "light entertainment" vs "hobby."  Just because they game doesn't mean they're any less susceptible to it, orliable to see it as a 'legitimate' hobby.

[Xerapis]

Oh, I wouldn't want to be a member of any group that had mandatory attendance at certain places and certain times. I already have a job for that nonsense. The job is necessary for food, shelter, clothing, and games.

I don't expect to be able to join a raid whenever I want or anything. No sense of entitlement. I'd just like to be a member who can raid when convenient while supporting the guild in other ways. I love fishing, cooking, gathering resources. I always donate good magical items and crafting recipes to the guild bank. That kind of stuff is fun for me. I'm just not going to hook up with a team that mandates attendance. Some nights I have RL stuff to do. Other nights I just want to log in and have fun running around doing crazy stuff or relaxing while fishing. I'm definitely second or third string or whatever. It's just hard to find a guild that accomodates my play style and still offers the opportunity to get to the really awesome stuff from time to time. ~shrug~

[Ingmar]

One thing I find odd is how people seem to act as though required raid nights are any different than pretty much any other team-based hobby/sport/fun activity.  Although perhaps I'm reading it wrong and it's merely a statement of 'I don't like any sort of activity that would require me to show up', but it doesn't read that way to me. 

There are very few activities like this that require the same number of mandatory hours that high end raid guilds often do, at least not at the hobbyist level of participation.

Beer league softball is typically a couple hours one night a week, and you get to get drunk too. A community band or orchestra is typically around 2-4 hours of rehearsal a week plus a concert once in a while. It isn't unusual for raid guilds to require 4 hours, 4 nights a week, or more. Which is on top of the time you might need to spend farming for consumables, other expenses, etc.

While there is a continuum on these things, there's also a bit of a slippery slope. I think once you get into requiring attendance at all, you get into a push/pull situation where the people who want to be more hardcore push you into MORE attendance/raiding nights, and the people who don't pull back, and that probably isn't good for guilds. It is best to just go all the way with it or just avoid mandatory shit, unless you're lucky enough to really have everyone on the same page.

[Merusk]

If your raid guild requires 4 hours 4 nights a week, it's a shitty raid guild that sucks at its intended purpose. The top 3 guilds on Alleria raided for about 8 hours a week at the height of BC.

Even the crappy little one I was involved in at the height of MC catassery required fewer hours than my brother-in-law spends playing Softball or Basketball per week.  With the added bonus that I was home to see the kids to bed and have dinner with the family instead of driving someplace after work.   You can get drunk raiding, too, since your mention of that activity apparently lends more legitimacy to the activities. Several of us did. Shock. Awe.

 The consumable grind, yes, was bullshit but there was gaming the AH or farming for gold (simple) instead of doing the actual consumable farming.  Not to mention that whole dance was nerfed and has been nerfed again since. It's to the point that it's fucking pointless to complain about it since it takes more time to complete an explorer achievement than to farm enough consumable mats for 3-4 weeks of raiding.

So yeah, either you're uninformed or you've got a mental block that prejudices you against the activity.

[Ingmar]

If your raid guild requires 4 hours 4 nights a week, it's a shitty raid guild that sucks at its intended purpose. The top 3 guilds on Alleria raided for about 8 hours a week at the height of BC.

Even the crappy little one I was involved in at the height of MC catassery required fewer hours than my brother-in-law spends playing Softball or Basketball per week.  With the added bonus that I was home to see the kids to bed and have dinner with the family instead of driving someplace after work.   You can get drunk raiding, too, since your mention of that activity apparently lends more legitimacy to the activities. Several of us did. Shock. Awe.

 The consumable grind, yes, was bullshit but there was gaming the AH or farming for gold (simple) instead of doing the actual consumable farming.  Not to mention that whole dance was nerfed and has been nerfed again since. It's to the point that it's fucking pointless to complain about it since it takes more time to complete an explorer achievement than to farm enough consumable mats for 3-4 weeks of raiding.

So yeah, either you're uninformed or you've got a mental block that prejudices you against the activity.

Um, I raid in WoW, I think you have misinterpreted something I said somewhere. I was just trying to answer the question about why people might think that.

And yeah a guild that requires that many hours might suck, but a visit to the guild recruitment forums will reveal that there are apparently plenty of guilds that suck that much.

EDIT: For the modern game, replace consumables grind with faction grind, at least for the early stages of raiding. There's still a lot of time involved outside the windows of required (or non-required) raid time.