Patch 1.1 Test notes

[Ard]

Thats the problem with rvr as a leveling method.  You can easily balance how much exp/rr is earned in scenarios because the have a set timer and winning conditions.  With open pvp theres simply no way to predict how much is going to go on so theres really no way to balance it, if nobody is doing and you increase exp given 1000% how do you deal with it when everyone is doing it and leveling ten times faster than you intended?

Except one of the huge carrots they half heartedly tried to raise xp gains with in ORVR did have a timer.  The battle objectives, but the xp they introduced into flipping those was trivial that it was still mostly pointless to bother doing it as a means of leveling.

The bigger issue is more that warband vs warband conflict, as a means for xping, is pointless, since being in a warband dilutes your xp gains by such a large amount you're better off doing pretty much anything else. 

But my knowledge here is also dated.  I quit a while back, and unlike AoC, I didn't leave mostly happy with the experience.

[Nebu]

I think people are still missing the point.  Leveling too fast ISN'T A BAD THING!  If people level fast (by getting LOTS of xp) in RvR, that's an incentive.  

[ghost]

I think people are still missing the point.  Leveling too fast ISN'T A BAD THING!  If people level fast (by getting LOTS of xp) in RvR, that's an incentive. 

Exactly.  So why have levels in this game?  Doesn't make any sense to me.  The idea of grinding out 40 levels of that crap makes me ill.

[HaemishM]

Open RVR influence rewards is really YET ANOTHER EXPERIENCE BAR GRIND. Why? For tier 4, it makes a little sense. For everything underneath tier 4, why not just increase the fucking experience gains by an absolute assload so that oRVR is more rewarding overall than scenarios?

Huh?  It already is, but noone friggin rvr's in the lower levels.  I've gotten from about 3-5k per solo kill in t3 rvr.

It was never increased enough to be more efficient leveling than scenarios.

It is.. but NO ONE RVR's.  I made more defending a keep in avelorn then I did in a 15 minute scenario.  The problem is that lower tier rvr is almost nonexistant.

Yet there are still no experience incentives for defending a keep other than killing players. So oRVR becomes a game of objective swaps.

[Threash]

I think people are still missing the point.  Leveling too fast ISN'T A BAD THING!  If people level fast (by getting LOTS of xp) in RvR, that's an incentive.  

I agree, the problem is making one option so much better than the rest so that most of your game becomes irrelevant.  Which is what we have now with scenarios being far better than questing or orvr, the idea is to balance them not to make one option 10 times better than the others.

[Nebu]

I agree, the problem is making one option so much better than the rest so that most of your game becomes irrelevant.  Which is what we have now with scenarios being far better than questing or orvr, the idea is to balance them not to make one option 10 times better than the others.

Play options are ALWAYS a good thing.  Not everyone relates fun to efficiency.

[tolakram]

I think people are still missing the point.  Leveling too fast ISN'T A BAD THING!  If people level fast (by getting LOTS of xp) in RvR, that's an incentive.  

I disagree.  Leveling too slow is as much of a problem as leveling too fast.  Regardless of how pvp oriented one is there is a fine line between grind and gimmick.   This is not an FPS it's an RPG.  You want to feel some sense of accomplishment doing things you think are fun.

From my perspective a leveling speed somewhere between tier 1 and 2 is about right, and it should be the same speed through all the tiers.

[Nebu]

I disagree.

Name a major MMO that failed because the players leveled too fast. 

It's not about leveling speed.  It's about the quality of gameplay that matters. 

[Brogarn]

If Mythic put in a hotkey that you pressed to get an instant blow job, you guys would complain about it. "I think I felt teeth! THIS GAME IS CRAP!!!"

Seriously, that's a load of fixes and things to look forward to for me. I think this game is pretty darn good and is moving its way towards great. I have fun with it every night that I'm on. It's not perfect and still needs a bit of work, but it's only a couple of months old. Mythic isn't perfect and made a huge mistake in the past (ToA) but they're not Funcom. This game will survive, it will get even better, and it most certainly is not dead. It cracks me up that schild moved this game to the Graveyard in a huff while Eve, a very very very niche game still remains in the MMO section. It's just fucking ridiculous. I have no problems getting scenarios at any tier. 1.0.6 brought out a HUGE number of people making some servers have queues. Mythic is listening to its player base and making constant, quality changes and patching as fast as they possibly can. You guys don't enjoy the game and that's fine. But it's a damn good game for me an a lot of other people and just doesn't deserve the scorn you folks heap on it.

[Arthur_Parker]

Seriously, that's a load of fixes and things to look forward to for me.

Just out of interest, name one.

[Nebu]

You guys don't enjoy the game and that's fine. But it's a damn good game for me an a lot of other people and just doesn't deserve the scorn you folks heap on it.

It's wonderful that you enjoy the game.  Tastes vary. 

As the line in the movie goes: "derserves got nothing to do with it". Criticism is what makes the market stronger.  Every title deserves thorough scruitiny.  Good games will weather that scrutiny better than others.

[waffel]

Why is it that Mythics believes the end-all be-all cure to every issue to the game is to throw gear at it?

*Nobody wants to attack keeps!
-Add more gold bags
*People are getting to the city too quickly!
-Add armor sets
*Open RvR is dead aside from keep-swapping!
-Add an influence system for items

[Jesper]

Why is it that Mythics believes the end-all be-all cure to every issue to the game is to throw gear at it?

*Nobody wants to attack keeps!
-Add more gold bags
*People are getting to the city too quickly!
-Add armor sets
*Open RvR is dead aside from keep-swapping!
-Add an influence system for items

The reason is quite simple.

There was only 1 Mythic employee that farsaw this.

He reached MJ's office and told him the problem.

MJ said:"A problem!". Then he drowed his employee in epics.

In other words: i agree with you.

[tolakram]

I disagree.

Name a major MMO that failed because the players leveled too fast. 

It's not about leveling speed.  It's about the quality of gameplay that matters. 

Why not just start at max level then?

How about 5 kills to max level?  No speed too fast, right?

Your last sentence is correct, the sentence before that does not belong.

I want rvr and I want an RPG.  Leveling too fast destroys the RPG element and introduces issues with loot scaling, drop rates, quests, etc.  I only claimed that you can level too fast and having fun was the key factor.  To me having fun doing 80-100% of my activity in open rvr is key, and this includes pvp and pve keep takes.  I'm beginning to think many of you really want a persistent FPS.

[Threash]

Guild Wars let you have max level chars for pvp from day 1.  They did ok.

[Nebu]

I want rvr and I want an RPG.  Leveling too fast destroys the RPG element and introduces issues with loot scaling, drop rates, quests, etc.  I only claimed that you can level too fast and having fun was the key factor.  To me having fun doing 80-100% of my activity in open rvr is key, and this includes pvp and pve keep takes.  I'm beginning to think many of you really want a persistent FPS.

The problem with the way MMO pvp is designed is that there's no point/meaning to anything but the endgame.  That being the case, pvp in MMO's either needs to a) get rid of the grind to the endgame or b) make the trip to the endgame more meaningful without losing the fun.  May as well allow people to /level 40.  It would probably keep people from leaving as quickly as many have.

[Hindenburg]

Why not just start at max level then?

How about 5 kills to max level?  No speed too fast, right?

You do know you're in a forum where most people would quite like that, right?

[tolakram]

The problem with the way MMO pvp is designed is that there's no point/meaning to anything but the endgame.  That being the case, pvp in MMO's either needs to a) get rid of the grind to the endgame or b) make the trip to the endgame more meaningful without losing the fun.  May as well allow people to /level 40.  It would probably keep people from leaving as quickly as many have.

Well in this case there is meaning to each tier, it's just badly implemented and documented.  They saw the problem, implemented a tier system where each tier helps with the final tier lock downs, and then dropped the ball and forgot it was important to fix it.

The vision I thought they had was members of each tier engaged in massive rvr battles to dominate their respective tiers in order to enable a city take.  City takes are done mostly my max level chars, but the lower levels do have a stake and if the rvr is fun it works.   While the city take is going on each tier defends it's oRvR areas to extend the lockdown or increase rewards or something.  Both attackers and defenders in each tier get loot, xp, and rp so that when it's all said and done you did something fun, gained goodies in the process, and Mythic reduced the feeling that the game only begins at max level.  How hard is that?

Without the tier system then yes, chars should /level 40 because there is little point.   I prefer the tier system, implemented correctly.

[HaemishM]

I'm beginning to think many of you really want a persistent FPS.

The 3 games I've played the most this calendar year: Team Fortress 2, Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142. 2 of the 3 had a "leveling" system from the get go which included new gear. I've played any one of those games more hours this year than any MMOG during the same time period, which includes WoW, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and Everquest 2 (which I played for free).

[Arthur_Parker]

The vision I thought they had was members of each tier engaged in massive rvr battles to dominate their respective tiers in order to enable a city take.  City takes are done mostly my max level chars, but the lower levels do have a stake and if the rvr is fun it works.  

Nobody wants to be the lower levels, levels as an idea, suck in a pvp game.  I said their zone system idea was flawed over a year ago, I just didn't know their game engine would make the whole T4 game unplayable, plus the lower tiers for anything other than scenarios are messed up because the pve game isn't by any measure fun.  WoW works because the levelling is the best part of the game and the classes are different enough and the grind short enough to encourage alts.

I had hoped that if Mark wasn't brave enough to abandon his EQ way of thinking and let everyone get to tier 4 quickly (game engine problems aside), then he would at least kill the grind for alts.  He hasn't done that either, at this point /exp off would be an improvement to help keep people having fun in T2 (I hate the idea of /exp off, but this game is flawed on so many levels that they need something to retain players).

[Morfiend]

After playing WoW WotLK through all the zones and doing almost every quest, I can safely say that their PVE game is so far ahead of WAR that its almost sad. WAR has no chance in the PVE department. They need to stop trying and focus on the RVR which is where they have their only hope of pulling away with something WoW doesnt already offer in a more refined and more fun way.

[Lantyssa]

I want rvr and I want an RPG.  Leveling too fast destroys the RPG element and introduces issues with loot scaling, drop rates, quests, etc.  I only claimed that you can level too fast and having fun was the key factor.  To me having fun doing 80-100% of my activity in open rvr is key, and this includes pvp and pve keep takes.  I'm beginning to think many of you really want a persistent FPS.

RPG does not mean Progression By Level.  Mechanics like levels are a means of providing some 'physics' in a game world.  Rules to structure it.  The idea of an RPG is to take a ROLE.  Numbers hinder that, because then people focus more on the numbers than the role.

If you like mucking with numbers, that's fine -- I often enjoy it, but it isn't what defines an RPG.

It's quite possible to make a game not so dependent upon levels and still provide activities.  It's just "the way it's done" so no one tries to change it.

[tolakram]

It's quite possible to make a game not so dependent upon levels and still provide activities.  It's just "the way it's done" so no one tries to change it.

I agree, but that was never expected of WAR, at least in my opinion.  There's not going to be a total re-write here to turn this into some bleeding edge experiment, it's a level and class based game.  Working with what WAR is, you can level too fast.  I hope people aren't assuming that means I like grind, I think i explained how balance should mean I eventually get to where I'm going by having fun, never grinding for that next level.

For those of you comparing this game to WoW, no insults but you need to realize how little I care about a refined PvE experience.  If I liked PvE and question I would probably like WoW or LotRO.  When I see the 1.1 patch notes and all the PvE fixes / changes I know that Mythic is working on the wrong thing.  Now that said, when DAoC was the thing it was noted that only a certain percentage of people RvR'ed while the rest stayed in PvE.  It may be that Mythic believes the RvR audience isn't big enough to support a game ... I have no idea if that's true or not.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's quite possible to make a game not so dependent upon levels and still provide activities.  It's just "the way it's done" so no one tries to change it.

I agree, but that was never expected of WAR, at least in my opinion.

Joshua Drescher Q&A from SomethingAwful

Warhammer Online Associate Producer Joshua Drescher popped by the SomethingAwful forums and provided a bit more insight into the details surrounding E3 2006. Many of the details have previously been highlighted in a few of the previews but there's a few rough areas that are cleared up in this brief Q&A. Here is the cleaned up and edited for readabilty version.

So can you touch on character advancement at all?

No levels. Four tiers, with ranks within each tier. You'll have 4 XP bars that allow you to select "packages" of advancements - abilities, static buffs, skills, etc. that you want to work on. Three will be "standard" bars, one will be RvR-specific.

The packages allow you to select advancements that interest you without level-locking them. So, if you're a big fan of exploring and you want to get a mount earlier than - say - an improved combat ability, you can choose a package that includes the ability to use a mount. Packages will have SOME restrictions - most likely tier-specific - but they offer players the ability to wind up with all of the stuff they want eventually, but also the ability to get it in the order of their choosing.

What could have been.

[ghost]

Now that said, when DAoC was the thing it was noted that only a certain percentage of people RvR'ed while the rest stayed in PvE.  It may be that Mythic believes the RvR audience isn't big enough to support a game ... I have no idea if that's true or not.

I guess it is possible that Mythic underestimated the number of people that would actually like their PVE.  That probably will sound silly to some of you, but doesn't RVR in their mind actually encompass PVE stuff too?  To take a zone you need PQs for sure.  I may be wrong about this, but there may be a questing component, too.  So if nobody does any PVE, which it seems almost no one does, then it would seriously fuck up their planning for taking zones. 

[tolakram]

What could have been.

Holy Crap.

I suppose with enough spin you could say this game does not have levels, it has ranks.  Did he imply that be 'leveling' any of the bars high enough you could advance tiers?  Technically, what would be the difference?

[Morfiend]

For those of you comparing this game to WoW, no insults but you need to realize how little I care about a refined PvE experience. 

If that was to me, then you should look again at what I said. I said that WoW does it so well, Mythic should stop trying to focus on PVE so much, and push people and their game to what they do do well, RVR.

[Megrim]

If Mythic put in a hotkey that you pressed to get an instant blow job, you guys would complain about it. "I think I felt teeth! THIS GAME IS CRAP!!!"

Seriously, that's a load of fixes and things to look forward to for me. I think this game is pretty darn good and is moving its way towards great. I have fun with it every night that I'm on. It's not perfect and still needs a bit of work, but it's only a couple of months old. Mythic isn't perfect and made a huge mistake in the past (ToA) but they're not Funcom. This game will survive, it will get even better, and it most certainly is not dead. It cracks me up that schild moved this game to the Graveyard in a huff while Eve, a very very very niche game still remains in the MMO section. It's just fucking ridiculous. I have no problems getting scenarios at any tier. 1.0.6 brought out a HUGE number of people making some servers have queues. Mythic is listening to its player base and making constant, quality changes and patching as fast as they possibly can. You guys don't enjoy the game and that's fine. But it's a damn good game for me an a lot of other people and just doesn't deserve the scorn you folks heap on it.

Ugh, mate, you might want to consider that the two games which have remained in the MMO forum are the ones that have been and are being played, over a long period of time by f13. As it stands currently, EvE (despite what you say about it being 'nice') blows WAR out of orbit. You might be enjoying it (WAR), sure, and so had i upto a certain point - but really, no. In about a year, maybe WAR will get the level of WoW circa 2006, but all we've seen so far is relentless duddery.

 * edit: clarity

[Sleep]

Why is everything in this game so sticky? I get stuck to anything I get close to. The railing in the T3 talabecland dam scenario bombing run comes to mind, as well as the ship wreckage in serpents pass. It feels like an army of time wizards teleports in to sploodge on every surface and outcropping just before I log in every night.

Smooth this shit out. Every time I get hung up on some little clipping and get asked to type /stuck I wonder why this wasn't dealt with in beta.

[Morfiend]

Holy crap.




I used to have this album so long ago. Wow, blast from the past.

[Trippy]

* Keep/Fortress Contribution: After lengthy evaluation and feedback from the players we have made several changes to the contribution system in place for the Public Quests associated with Keep/Fortress sieges. These changes will encourage more participation and reward players participating in Keep/Fortress sieges.
- All enemy kills, both Player Character and Non-Player Character, will now contribute towards the Public Quest for taking a Keep/Fortress.
- Other actions that lead to taking a Keep/Fortress will now result in contribution toward the Public Quest for taking a Keep/Fortress.

"After it was discovered that there was no contribution being taken into consideration at all, we have slapped together a system that will be just as ridiculous. Seriously, we thought we would have more time to figure something out before you guys caught on but shit man, it worked out so well with how SWG treated the first Jedi unlocking system that it made perfect sense to try to sneak this past our players. Oh, by the way, we will never ever admit that we just made it a pre-determined random integer on entering the zone, but hey, someday when the post-mortem is done on this game it might be listed in the coroner's report."

So, what should I name my Death Knight?

They didn't try to sneak it by -- we told them repeatedly in the Guild Beta that there needed to be incentives to take and hold BOs.

[Jesper]

What could have been.

Holy Crap.

I suppose with enough spin you could say this game does not have levels, it has ranks.  Did he imply that be 'leveling' any of the bars high enough you could advance tiers?  Technically, what would be the difference?

i've played beta1. That beta had a system similar to this...you had 4 bars: general, tactics, morale and renown.  Every bar had a different "checkpoint" and you needed XP for the first 3 and RPs for the last. When you reached a checkpoint, you were able to freely select an advancement from your Tier pool. The bars shared XP, simply rewards were given at different checkpoints.

IE:

TIER 1, LEVEL 1 ADVANCEMENT (600 XP needed to level 2)
BAR 1(general)     100XP=advancement   200XP=advancement   300XP=advancement   400XP= advancement   500XP=Advancement
BAR 2(Tactics)     150XP= new tactic   300XP=new tactic    500XP=new tactic
BAR 3(Morale)      250XP= new morale    500XP= new morale
BAR 4 (Renown) wasn't working.

This was a sweet system. General advancements were both abilities (IE: guarded attack) and stat packs (IE: +3STR +5WS); tactics and morale advancement were self explanatory.

This way you were "dinging" several time a level, and you were able to choose your advancement. Even more sweet, while you could get all general advacements, you had to choose morale and tactics while leveling.

Then suddenly they changed the system to be more WoWlike, with trainers, fixed advancements and ability ranks.

EDIT: clarity. i hope ç_ç

[Sophismata]

Wow. I wonder what prompted them to change things.

[morph]

So after 2 months they decided that they like the vanilla WoW PvP rewards system (which everyone thought sucked)!
You gear up by maxing your influence (reputation) in each tier (battleground - AV/WSG/AB) and get better rewards at different stages of influence (epics at max!).
Implement something like a PvP ladder system, and show off the top RP (honor) earners in the town.

On the ward system issue, I don't really think its that problematic, since the PvP sets also give you wards and those are easily obtainable. So keep gear will help you in fortress fights. Unless ofc I misunderstood the entire thing.

On another note, is there anyone else around, that like me, thinks that Blizzard implement keep sieges/defense (in wintergrasp/Strands of the Ancients) in a much better way than Mythic did? If you factor in that when I played the game (up to 1 month ago) it was impossible for order to lock a t4 zone (even when everything was captured/did some PQs etc), you can see why I quit the game (at Rank40/RR42).

[Arthur_Parker]

Implement something like a PvP ladder system, and show off the top RP (honor) earners in the town.

Well the statues are the top RP earners, has a pvp ladder system for items been confirmed?

Looking at this quote from the patch notes, which jumped right out at me.

* New "Rare" items are available as rewards for more casual RvR players.

* New "Very Rare" items are available as rewards for hardcore RvR players.

It implies a ladder type system, how else could you prevent casual players getting the hardcore rewards?  If a hardcore player is online three times as much as a casual, then on pure influence reward system, they only delay the casual by "time requiredx3", so why even use the terms hardcore and casual?  Even if it's only a two rung system with xthousand RP's needed per week to reach the second rung, it's still a ladder system.

I'd like to see it confirmed by someone on test before commenting further on it.

Edit typo