Dungeon Keeper Online

[schild]

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=57909

NetDragon announced a licensing agreement with EA on the development of the first 3D MMORPG based on the Dungeon Keeper franchise, including themes, characters and other game content, also giving it the exclusive license to operate and distribute Dungeon Keeper Online throughout the Greater China region, including Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macau.

"We are delighted to enter into an agreement with EA in the development of our first 3D MMORPG. Our partnership with this internationally renowned game developer is proof of our capabilities in game operations and development as well as a reflection of our market reputation," said Mr. Liu Dejian, Chairman and Executive Director of NetDragon. "Capitalizing our strength to create a strong gaming experience, powerful operating platform and unmatched expertise within China's online game market, we are confident that Dungeon Keeper Online will not only become successful in the Greater China region but also achieve remarkable results overseas."

Jon Niermann, President of EA Asia Pacific said, "The partnership marks a significant milestone for EA as it will enhance our intellectual property and extend our product reach throughout the Greater China region. It will also further enhance our intellectual property with differentiated, high-quality games, particularly in the field of MMORPGs."

Dungeon Keeper is a PC strategy game released by EA in July 1997.

How strange.

[FatuousTwat]

Jesus fucking christ. Why does everything have to be an MMO these days?

Fuck you WoW. Fuck you.

[Merusk]

It's not just WoW you can blame it on.  Piracy, "holy shit we can make money beyond the original box," and, "hey we can produce an incomplete product, and patch it later while making money instead of constantly losing it" are also driving factors.

[FatuousTwat]

Yes those are factors, but I don't care.

Fuck you WoW.

[schild]

Actually, I would wager the company just pitched it to EA and offered them some cash and they though "why the fuck not?" That was always my personal plan with the Planescape license and Wizards.

[FatuousTwat]

It may be that I haven't played DK for a LONG time, but how the hell do you even go about shoe-horning it into an mmo game?

Might as well make Tetris Online. I want to play the mystical L block.

[Trippy]

I'm assuming they are using the very loose definition of the term "MMO", like most people are doing these days. I.e. any online MP game counts as "MM" now. So you have somebody building a dungeon and inviting some online friends to try and get the phat l3wt at the end and voila you have yourself an MMO.

[damijin]

Its infuriating that the worst fucking buzzword-turned-acronym is used in this genre. Thankfully, I can now enjoy that cancer being spread to shit that isn't even really an MMO just because it apparently moves units.

This is SOE's fault, right? I can't remember who to be angry at.

I'll blame Smedley anyway. Fuck 'em.

[Sunbury]

Was Dungeon Keeper Diablo3-style 3D, or WoW/EQ2 et. al. style 3D?

[Ironwood]

I always thought that making DK a head to head online affair would be great.

It was what Bullfrog originally designed anyway...

[Trippy]

Was Dungeon Keeper Diablo3-style 3D, or WoW/EQ2 et. al. style 3D?

Kind of in-between. It wasn't a fixed camera like Diablo I/II (dunno if III has camera restrictions) but the default view was more of a "top down" RTS-style view than WoW or EQ II, though you could zoom in/rotate and even play in first person mode if you wanted to.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's not actually that bad an idea, any form of player created content would make a nice change from the usual.

[Yegolev]

The way I read the article is that some asian-mmo gangsters were going to pitch a new game but wanted to use a known-and-respected IP for some sweet bait-and-switch action.  What will arise will probably look a whole lot like DK but play more like Lineage.  It would be great if they hired Peter Molyneux and it ended up being called Peter Molyneux's Dungeon Keeper Online, after which he would be shot into space with some grrl-gamer eggs.  After meeting Space Jesus, he would smuggle his divinely-fecund cargo to the same Tibetan cave where Garriott is holed up and together they will breed the next echelon of gamers.

[Lietgardis]

It's a strategy MMO for the Chinese market.

You know, like the Heroes of Might and Magic strategy MMO for the Chinese market that they shipped earlier this year.  (That game was in development for years.)

[Yegolev]

I take it you are not confident in the "remarkable results overseas" portion of the article... and neither am I.

[Murgos]

I'm assuming they are using the very loose definition of the term "MMO", like most people are doing these days. I.e. any online MP game counts as "MM" now. So you have somebody building a dungeon and inviting some online friends to try and get the phat l3wt at the end and voila you have yourself an MMO.

I recall that this was actually how the game was billed before it was released.  Once it finally hit the stores we found out that they weren't able to provide the multiplayer support, or even the adventurer side of the game that was talked up in the previews.

So, you had random AI heros invade your dungeon that, like most AI, were trivially simple to beat.

[Pezzle]

I still have Dungeon Keeper 2 installed!

The charm and joy of these titles is not something you can capture by slapping on your standard mmo process.  I want the creators to manage, but it would take so much effort.  I doubt very much what we get (if anything) will remind me of the games.

Why can't they just make DK 3? =(  Sure, it might be terrible, but it has a better chance of success.

[TheCastle]

ok I am going to bite.

I know Square is adding a similar system to FFXI...
I have yet to fully begin to understand how such a system even makes sense under the context that its not a main system in the game.. Are they adding it just so its possible to make perfect xp camps? *shrugs* Its the most off beat addition to the game yet by a long shot.

Now an MMOG that based purely around the idea.
MMOGs are amusement parks with everything in them not a one shot idea that gets old in one week.
How would they make this work exactly?

Perhaps what they really mean is the dungeon keeper universe is now being turned into a WoW clone?

[Mrbloodworth]

ok I am going to bite.

I know Square is adding a similar system to FFXI...
I have yet to fully begin to understand how such a system even makes sense under the context that its not a main system in the game.. Are they adding it just so its possible to make perfect xp camps? *shrugs* Its the most off beat addition to the game yet by a long shot.

Now an MMOG that based purely around the idea.
MMOGs are amusement parks with everything in them not a one shot idea that gets old in one week.
How would they make this work exactly?

Perhaps what they really mean is the dungeon keeper universe is now being turned into a WoW clone?

See: Saga of Ryzom.

But with dungeon keepers humor.

[eldaec]

It's not actually that bad an idea, any form of player created content would make a nice change from the usual.

Fixed it for you. There won't be any player created content, because this will not be a dungeon keeper game.

[Ingmar]

I found the Dungeon Keeper games horribly disappointing. There's so much *potential* in 'build your dungeon to kill the heroes who come to explore it' that they mostly missed out on I think.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's not actually that bad an idea, any form of player created content would make a nice change from the usual.

Fixed it for you. There won't be any player created content, because this will not be a dungeon keeper game.

You need a new gimmick.

[eldaec]

It's not actually that bad an idea, any form of player created content would make a nice change from the usual.

Fixed it for you. There won't be any player created content, because this will not be a dungeon keeper game.

You need a new gimmick.

Yeah, well, me and the mmog industry both, what'cha gonna do.

[eldaec]

I found the Dungeon Keeper games horribly disappointing. There's so much *potential* in 'build your dungeon to kill the heroes who come to explore it' that they mostly missed out on I think.

To some extent I agree - the problem always seemed to be that your aim was to make sure nothing interesting happens. That, and the best defence against hero attacks was always building a simple impassable killing zone, you never had an incentive to build interesting defences.

The dungeon keeper vs dungeon keeper thing never seemed that interesting because the interface for attacking with creatures was so meh.

But it still had enough character to make me buy it and play it.

[TheCastle]

I found the Dungeon Keeper games horribly disappointing. There's so much *potential* in 'build your dungeon to kill the heroes who come to explore it' that they mostly missed out on I think.

To some extent I agree - the problem always seemed to be that your aim was to make sure nothing interesting happens. That, and the best defence against hero attacks was always building a simple impassable killing zone, you never had an incentive to build interesting defences.

The dungeon keeper vs dungeon keeper thing never seemed that interesting because the interface for attacking with creatures was so meh.

But it still had enough character to make me buy it and play it.

Now assuming this is a MMOG with a considerable number of catasses in the population. Imagine then dungeons that are not created for fun but only to deter you to the maximum extent possible so they can maximize their own reward.

When it comes to building fun content you have to adhere to proper pacing and cater to the players experience. Proper design does not work well in an environment where your goal is to simply kill the player. One cannot reliably have a community building harder and harder dungeons and necessarily consider it a quality experience.

The only way this kind of thing could work on a larger scale is if the idea is to build the highest quality dungeon and you reward the designer for having the most people visiting. However then you have to make sure that the dungeons are created for a challenging and balanced experience and not just handing out free rewards.

Then you also have to decide how much power you give the designers as well. Will I be able to script sequences out and create almost anything I want or will my control be very limited? Either way you go will exasperate different fundamental problems with the system. Building fun content requires both control and finesse. Unless maybe the dungeons are auto-generated. That would be the easy way out hehe...

[palmer_eldritch]

Sounds like fun to me, although the same is true of most of these games when they are on paper.

Setting people a challenge of designing a dungeon which is both fun enough to get people to come and also nasty enough to kill them could work. You get "dungeon XP" for the players you kill, allowing you to upgrade your dungeon with harder mobs etc (but that's cool because higher level players need somewhere to go).

If you create something so bad that nobody wants to go there, no XP. If you create something that players beat continously, no XP. It might even be a game where XP loss makes sense, eg if they kill your boss (but I'm only talking about "dungeon xp" here).

Everyone gets one dungeon to make, but if it's not working it's easy to change. You also play with an avatar in traditional MMO fashion, heading into other people's dungeons with friends.

Lots of community features where the website lists most popular dungeons, most lethal dungeons etc.

That's how I'd make it anyway.

[Daeven]

It may be that I haven't played DK for a LONG time, but how the hell do you even go about shoe-horning it into an mmo game?

Might as well make Tetris Online. I want to play the mystical L block.

Go back to the original concept (back in '95) which was Villains building Evil Keeps of Villainy and Heroes trying to do them in?

Huh. You could even do it in a 'Sporeish' manner - publish your Tomb of Horrors and have the players / heroes rate it somehow. Achievement markers for advanced widgets and whatnot.

[Krakrok]

I found the Dungeon Keeper games horribly disappointing. There's so much *potential* in 'build your dungeon to kill the heroes who come to explore it' that they mostly missed out on I think.

Same. I tried to play it a year or so after it came out and thought it was crap.

[TheCastle]

That's how I'd make it anyway.

Interesting take on the idea. I am mostly inclined to believe you especially this line.

Sounds like fun to me, although the same is true of most of these games when they are on paper.

I went over a bunch of meditative reasons why I feel that way but really it was just a bunch of rambling and assumptions best kept to myself. trust me it was a lot of junk. But who knows how the game will end up being in the end.

[bhodi]

That's a lot of words for a game that have released absolutely no details. You sure are doing a lot of assuming.

It could be as simple as dungeon PvP. For example, here's how I'd do it:

You build your dungeon, but to build some of the more advanced structures, you need 'plundered gems' in addition to gold. Plundered gems are on attacking and attacked units from other players. You build your dungeon as normal, and, when you're ready, you check the "Bring it, bitches" box and that puts you and your dungeon in to an appropriate matchmaking rotation. Eventually, it finds a compatible person, joins their world/dungeon map together to yours from a random direction. Then, you tunnel outward until you hit, you fight it out, and one of you "dies" once your dungeon heart is conquered (or retreats if they leave the game).

Plundered gems are then awarded on each side, plus some extra for victory and everyone's kicked back into the single player phase to revise your dungeon for better attack or defense in the future.

The same method of combat can be done for 2v2, FFA, or maybe there could even be a team play mode where you pick one person's dungeon but have two hands to move stuff around and cast spells and such, kind of like that combo mode in starcraft.

[schild]

That's a lot of words for a game that have released absolutely no details. You sure are doing a lot of assuming.

He fancies himself as a member of the armchair design intelligentsia. Long, vacuous posts people won't read all of seems to be where he excels. Weirdly, you have now fed him. Something I hadn't expected.

[TheCastle]

That's a lot of words for a game that have released absolutely no details. You sure are doing a lot of assuming.

He fancies himself as a member of the armchair design intelligentsia. Long, vacuous posts people won't read all of seems to be where he excels. Weirdly, you have now fed him. Something I hadn't expected.

I hadn't actually expected that to be as large of a post as it turned out.
Sometimes I do that.

I actually am a designer for a living however. I tend to use my outside voice more often than I should.
this is mostly a valid criticism.

edit: Question
Is it still considered armchair design intelligentsia when I apply things I talk about to content I make for games?

[Krakrok]

It could be as simple as dungeon PvP. For example, here's how I'd do it:

That might make a good flash game.

[Merusk]

edit: Question
Is it still considered armchair design intelligentsia when I apply things I talk about to content I make for games?

No, it's worse.  It then becomes Ivory Tower design as you try to force things to a method or theory instead of applying knowledge gained via practical testing and use.  The same thing happens in a lot of fields.  In mine, for example, you get asshats like Eisenmann and Ghery who handwave away things like 3'wide 12' deep closets, leats and maintainence issues with, "Well these buildings aren't meant to be INHABITED!  You're just another subject of the experience!"

Yeah.

[TheCastle]

edit: Question
Is it still considered armchair design intelligentsia when I apply things I talk about to content I make for games?

No, it's worse.  It then becomes Ivory Tower design as you try to force things to a method or theory instead of applying knowledge gained via practical testing and use.  The same thing happens in a lot of fields.  In mine, for example, you get asshats like Eisenmann and Ghery who handwave away things like 3'wide 12' deep closets, leats and maintainence issues with, "Well these buildings aren't meant to be INHABITED!  You're just another subject of the experience!"

Yeah.

Ahh fuck..
noo... LOL

Ill edit my post and keep this in mind.
Keep in mind I have no intentions of being like you describe lol.. I am really just someone who thinks way too much. I in no way want to preach these things.

Ill try from now on to keep in check when a post is for myself or when its useful for others to read.