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Author Topic: Look, a brain dropping from Lum..  (Read 7836 times)
Xilren's Twin
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Posts: 1648


on: March 29, 2004, 12:26:09 PM

New post on his blog site here.  Touches on thoughts of non-linearity, non-time dependence, and accesible endgames/metgames.  Opening statement as such...

Quote
The model for every MMO’s content up to this point has been, with very few exceptions, non-linear, thin, time-dependent and relying on players to aspire to goals that many players never reach. All of these are hostile to many players – the mythical “casual player” that the very structure of massively multiplayer gaming seems antithetical to. It isn’t an accident that, when Gordon Walton used the term “catass” as an aside in his presentation, he didn’t see the need to define it further. How can we work on scaling down some of that “newb hostility”? Possibly by exploring further some fundamental assumptions of MMO design which may need challenging


Worth a read even if it's more of a "um, there are problems" rather than having concrete solutions to offer yet.  Apparently GDC is worth sparking a few neurons on.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
WayAbvPar
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Posts: 19268


Reply #1 on: March 29, 2004, 12:47:42 PM

Thanks for the link...I hadn't checked Lum's blog yet this week. For being sleep-deprived, it was an incredibly lucid and thought provoking article.

Quote
Making “teh fun” being the reward for suffering through 90% of your game isn’t just bad game design, it’s sadism, for crying out loud.


A-fucking-men.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Fargull
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Reply #2 on: March 29, 2004, 01:50:22 PM

Quote from:
While players do create epic tales of drama about the milestones of the game, if you create barriers of entry so high that almost no one can meet them, the main epic tales of drama will be played out on the message boards, where players will attempt to outdo each other in furious prose of how badly your game design sucks.


Just about sums up any message board and half the threads commonly found here.  Lum and Arc both are great at bringing wit and thinly veiled bile to bear on the industry.  The article hits dead on the issues currently at hand and at least most obviously present in the designs of today's mmorgs.  I think the single most untapped area is the community and Lum's summation to let them help the narrative is spot on.

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
HaemishM
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Reply #3 on: March 29, 2004, 02:59:46 PM

Goddamn, isn't that what I've been saying on the boards and writing in my articles for the last year and a goddamn half? I don't think I've ever doubted Lum "got it," I just wish someone would give him and someone else who knows WTF they are doing to the money to build a game like that.

Or at least give Lum a fucking bat to the head of the next bitch who thinks he can make fat McQuaid dollars with recycled shit.

Katukov Strikes Back
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Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 10:09:43 AM

Quote from: Lum
Moving it to the sphere of MMOs, and pretending for a moment we live in a world where one can have the SS and the NKVD in a role playing game without attracting the ire of revisionists, racists and lawsuits...


As the movie "War Games" said: "The only way to win is not to play."

Don't use real world names, only real world history. Ie. Take the Arab/Israel 6 day war (Soviet backed Hostile Neighbors vs Western Backed Nation with First strike policy), make the area bigger and have a western Europe feel to it, throw in some fictional Country and ethnic names like Eastern Potsulvanions vs Western Potsulvanions, and tada! No lawsuits and no angry soccer moms.

Scifi works have done this for decades. Use fiction to recount or comment on real world issues. However, I'm not looking for social commentary. I just want a fun game.

More insane rambings when I get beck from the Doctors office...

[I'm back]

In the game Lum imagines, I will assume that combat is skill based and not level based. Yet he invisions "teh fUn" for all. Let's take that idea and run with it...all the way to June of 1975.

Mythical Cold war battle like I described above between a Soviet and Western proxy. Equipment for each could be cherry picked anywhere from WWII leftovers to mid 70's hardware. Now, you're is at the spawn screen for your repective side, what can you do in game? Well,

Infantry:

First, you can shoot people. Who doesn't love that? Choose from a small list of small arms and have at it. Or you can take some AT weapons and go tank hunting. Or pick up a support weapon and give cover to your squadmates. Or pick up and AA laucher and plink away at helos and jets. Or pick up a field radio and call in arty.

Don't like shooting people? Fine. Play recon. Sneek within X distance of enemy town/base/strong point observe for y mintues and return to base for some type of reward or rank increase. Or paradrop far behind enemy lines and blow up bridges and other critical infastructure while avoiding the enemy.

Light Vehicles:

Walking no fun? Hop in a Jeep or truck. But what to do? Well, you could Ferry firendly troops around, pull recon once again with the aid of high speed and observation equipment, call in artillary with a radio equiped unit, take on infantry with a MG armed one or hunt tanks with a Recoiless Rifle or ATGM armed jeep.

Armor:

I'm going to lump support units into this catagory. First, there are tanks. Hunt other tanks, support the infantry, and lead the charge. Basic stuff.

Then there are Assault guns. WWII leftovers designed to support infantry. Comes with huge HE load and really thin armor. You can attack other tanks if you enjoy the challenge.

APC and IFV. Give infantry a lift in anything from WWII era half-tracks or US supplied M113s, or ATGM equiped BMP-1s. Lets not forget the parachutable models as well.

Self propelled AA. Keep enemy air units away from your forces or go into direct fire mode against ground targets in desperation.

(Self Propelled Artillary - Not sure how one could model both this and a counter-battery aspect with human input. I imagine Artillary would be AI controled with radio armed players calling upon it.)

Air forces:

Jets. Dog fight enemy jets, take out enemy bombers, and maintain air superiorty. Dont' like to dogfight? Pull CAS and shoot up enemy ground forces or fly anit-AA bombing runs.

Jets to fast? Fly a helo gunship or transport. Fly a spotter plane or recon helo and observe enemy forces.

Support:

There are those people in MMOGs who don't want to fight anybody ever. No problem. Play as an engineer and repair damaged buildings, build pontoon bridges or moble spawn points, place ammo/fuel depots, or setup front line repair shops for damaged vehicles. For the sake of argument I'll throw medics in this group.

Stratigic Level gameplay:

Finally, a stratigic map with a vote system for players who lock them selves into one side for the duration of a campaign. Never set foot in the field and still be about to influence the battle.

"3rd Guards rifle Company is on the run. Send our nearby mech platoon some tank support and have them take vodkaville before the enemy rallies!"

Any when you finally do all that, or what you liked at least, you do it all over again with the other side's equipment which should have at least some the traits their real world counter-parts do. Throw in map rotation after one side loses and the subs should last for a long time.

Crafters, Fighters, Adventurers, and Socializers. Did I leave anyone out? Catasses might be disappointed that 2/3 of the above mentioned items would be open to players the minute they open the box.

Before anyone says it, I know there is no way in hell the above would be made within the next 10 years and there is a ton of details to work out like rank/XP systems, greif system, stratigic design, ect.

Blame this post on the abundance elf ears in MMOGs.

"Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Fantasy themes have got to go!"
Scorus
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Reply #5 on: March 31, 2004, 07:49:18 AM

That sadism quote just screams out my current opinion of SWG. The system that it uses to become a Jedi that has been in since launch is so utterly painful and forces anyone that wants to play a Jedi (a large portion of the player base) to grind in ways completely unprecedented in MMOs. And yes, I know that is saying something. They are changing it shortly after it got highlighted as something so utterly not fun it is ridiculous on a mainstream gaming site, but the fact that they went live with it in this fashion is just pure sadism in the extreme. It has soured SO many people on that game and its devs it is ridiculous.

I am kinda new here so I don't know if it is a faux pas to include a link to a game's official boards (which SOE recently reopened to the public after closing them from public viewing for months because of all the problems in the game that created so much player bile). If you want a good link to see how much people are suffering, send me a PM.

I know they are suffering by choice, they could choose to not become Jedi and ignore this painful procedure. But, as Lum says, this is the key to the upper level content in the game. Jedi Masters ARE the best fighters in the game, the most well-rounded characters in the game, and they have announced a lot of jedi-only content in the future. So this is the upper level game, and the only way to get to it is to grind out as many as 32 professions.

The worst part: the devs constantly were telling players to turn off their xp bars and just have fun while secretly putting in a system where the only way to get to the high-end content was to do absolutely nothing but watch your xp bars for months. Pure sadism.

Scorus
eldaec
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Reply #6 on: March 31, 2004, 11:50:25 AM

Some short, ill-thought-out responses that crossed my mind...

Quote

How can you create a linear game experience – “tell a story”, in other words -- when it is shared by thousands of others? What’s more, would you want to? Isn’t a non-linear game experience unique to MMOs, in fact one of their most defining characteristics? Sure. But at the same time, it’s used as a crutch. “We can’t tell a good story. We’ll let the players do it instead.” Of course, if a single-player CRPG used the same tack, it would quite rightly be viewed as an abdication of story-telling, not a refinement of it.


I think you have to start by realising that there is a separation between the development and experience of characters (which has to remain as non linear and ungated as possible); and the development of the world itself, which can change to tell a story, without having to cause social problems through separation between friends.

Quote

the retelling of interesting times


And that's the thing - the sort of story I think a MMOG player wants is a world that changes around them (ideally, but not necessarily in a way impacted by the collectinve actions of other players).

MMOG players will, I suspect remain largely uninterested by the grand narrative. Just as TIE_fighter_pilot_01 remains largely uninterested in many aspects of imperial politics (except maybe as a sort of entertainment on the evening news). But the MMOG player is interested in adapting to the new environment, and for them, the most important story will always be how their guild achieves that.

In many ways DAoC/EQ have some features of such a story, the regular "discovery" of new zones is a perfectly reasonable example. And I suspect a lot could be achieved by smoother staggering of new content, and less comprehensive patch notes.

If you want to involve players in the lore of new content then giving each server some collective task to unlock it might be one way to drag more guilds and players into it. (simple example might be to simply have everyone kill a gazillion skeletons and hand in gazillion skulls to an npc. More complex versions might look like some of the larger projects in ATITD, which due to their multi-week durations and strong community requirements probably produce more memorable stories than most single hour encounters ever could). I suspect the important thing to remember is that the games are about community - and most information that the casual player has comes from guild/eventy/raid leaders, so if you want the storyline to become more central - you need to give these community leaders a reason to be passing the story on.

Quote

While players do create epic tales of drama about the milestones of the game, if you create barriers of entry so high that almost no one can meet them, the main epic tales of drama will be played out on the message boards, where players will attempt to outdo each other in furious prose of how badly your game design sucks.


1) Give all players of all levels a way to contribute to story ASYNCHRONOUSLY - even if just by handing in skeleton remains. The lowbies don't have to be involved in every step.

2) Reward entire servers/realms for key story achievements. The reason there was much cheering and rejoicing when Luke Skywalker blew up the death star, was that everyone benefited, and were rewarded by not being made dead. The reason everyone shouts 'nerf!' when someone else kills a MMOG dragon is that the dragon wasn't really menacing anyone and killing it did no service whatsoever to the realm.

3) Remember that the real leet end game of any MMOG today is cat-herding 2k4. It's played by raid and guild leaders everywhere. The cat herders provide most of what casual players view as "plot", even if today it's just "zerg this!" "casters stand there!" and "don't break mez you fucktards!"; if you can find a way to get these guys to tell your story (as stated elsewhere in Lums piece there are lots of people who want to tell the story, but you ideally want to engage the people who are doing the practical leadership, ie. the people who are listened to)  - then you'll *really* be cooking with gas. I have no idea how you achieve this.

Quote

The elder game is going to be striven for anyway. That upper 10% is going to want to be there no matter what. There’s no need to make a huge wall to climb for them to get there. Instead, design the game around what the player does after they finish the tutorial. What is *fun*? Where is the player going to go next? What are they going to do? How are they going to be engaged in the wider world around them, what goals will they have, and how engaging is the process that they go about meeting them?


Hell yes.

To my mind the game design feels broken if people regularly quit after more than a month but less than the time required to reach the end game (which is typically the point where you stop getting exponetionally stronger, and only gain strength through customisation appropriate to the way you play, mudflation, and tactics).

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Dravalen
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Reply #7 on: March 31, 2004, 02:17:18 PM

Quote from: eldaec

MMOG players will, I suspect remain largely uninterested by the grand narrative. Just as TIE_fighter_pilot_01 remains largely uninterested in many aspects of imperial politics (except maybe as a sort of entertainment on the evening news).


I think if you make the overall storyline/whatever good enough most of your players will be interested in it. For instance in SB some days I spent more time reading the political boards than actually playing the game, that was if I could get in game. I think the next step for MMOGs is going to be a changable world. SB had it to a degree, but we all know how that went.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
Faust
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Reply #8 on: April 05, 2004, 02:52:09 PM

Lum's a smart guy.  I like his article.  It's good to see we're all thinking the same thing.

In other words, there's nothing particularly original about his article's content... but it's good to see that we've all got the same thing on our collective consiousness.

However, the currently discussed moans and groans sound, to me, almost the same as they did in 1998 and, I suspect, 1989.  The context is changed and there are several more examples to site, but at it's base the problems are still the same.

Kin Rha
Secundo
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Reply #9 on: April 29, 2004, 04:42:38 PM

I think its time to look outside of the regular mmorpg perspective. What makes people interested and competitive?

For one I would look at sports. and by that I mean statistics and leagues... Make every god damn guild ever created show up in a highly visible ranking list. Make it cover.. whatever! npc kills, pvp kills, money earned etc..
My point is that people are competitive by nature because that is how we have survived until now. Make this visible! let the carebears occupy the bottom of the list if they feel comfortable with that.. the rest of us will fight tooth and nails to get some recognition and we will accidentally have fun while doing this...

I know, this is not the holy grail of mmorpg's but maybe, just maybe, it can help bring development forward. AND keep people/customers entertained.

"Klingons do not allow themselves to be probed" -Mr Worf
Mr_PeaCH
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Reply #10 on: April 30, 2004, 12:24:15 PM

Re: competitive stat junkies

I happen to think this is one of the best things that DAoC did.  Having access to the Camelot Herald and all the personal and guild stats you could derive from that was priceless.

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