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[WindupAtheist]

Because those long range conventional weapons are generally heavy (ie howitzers and artillery) and cant be moved quickly, which means that the enemy (who is a light footed unconventional warfare type) can sneak in from any direction and fuck up the crews manning them. So then you are stuck having to beef up security around them, which means you have now wasted manpower and resources in holding a piece of land to protect a piece of equipment

There are plenty of light guns that can lob a shell ten miles and weigh less than an SUV, and if they're trying to attack your artillery positions then that's absolutely great anyway. Because now the natives have to come to you and rush at your machine guns with spears, instead of luring you into their clever Ewok jungle traps.

with a long but limited range the enemy can simply move out of or move so close to that you cant shoot them.
Happens all the time in insurgent and unconventional warfare situations.

Except the fact that these guys have shitty weapons doesn't automatically make them unconventional ninja insurgents. If you watch the damn trailer, you'll see that their goal is specifically to defend and hold a particular piece of territory. Exactly the sort of scenario a conventional military is intended for.

If a bunch of Al Qaeda guys decided to pile into one of their Afghan training camps and scream "We shall prove that this is OUR LAND!" like that one blue schmuck in the trailer, I guarantee whoever was in charge would have the Air Force blow them to hell while laughing hysterically rather than march the Army in there to check for boobytraps with their faces.

If the natives melt away into the hills to fight a guerilla war, the humans can just fortify the little piece of land they need and ignore them. They aren't there to restore democracy or build a nation, they're there to relocate one village. They're not going to be going out on patrol trying to win hearts and minds.

Quit trying to make this Iraq. I know it's trendy, but there's absofuckinglutely no comparison.

Edit: Or to put it more baldly, these guys aren't the insurgents. They're the guys yelling "Yeah we'll show those American pigdogs what's up!" as they piled into their forty year old tanks. The insurgency came after.

[Abagadro]

They shelled the living crap out of Iwo Jima but still had to dig the Japanese out one sqaure meter at a time with ground troops, up to and including flame-throwers, sword, and hand-to-hand combat.

It mostly depends on the terrain, resources, and mission objective.  There is no one answer.

Battlefield 360 has a great episode on the Iwo Jima battle BTW.

[WindupAtheist]

No, I see what you're saying. But they did shell them into the caves, and then dig them out with flamethrowers. They didn't just go "Fuck it, you know, we didn't nuke the Cherokee!" and run up the beach to get in swordfights. Which is what I saw the equivalent of in that trailer, and is all I'm really arguing against.

[NowhereMan]

It's a fair point that WUA's making. This isn't an argument about whether it's possible for a technologically inferior force to defeat an aggressor through attrition but whether a military with several decades advance on us would decide it was best to fight a load of guys armed with bows and arrows by sending in dudes with rifles and small mechs designed to take people on at ranges of 20m. It's going to seem fucking retarded if you ever stop to think about it without some relatively imaginative thinking. Since WUA's other point was this doesn't seem like the kind of movie that's going to to give us that the point pretty much stands. No he's not absolutely right but in terms of the movie this seems to be, seriously this isn't an argument worth having.

And now we get to the sad part of these threads, the bit where a post that isn't abusive but seems to sum things up relatively well gets totally ignored while someone calls someone else a horrible retard and quotes a Sci-Fi movie or other thread to continue a pointless argument about nothing. And while this may seem horrible egotistical, I though we'd reached this point a page back but it still hasn't stopped.

[Abagadro]

Seems like there are some assumptions being made based upon the trailer I would say. Did they know they were even there when they sent those guys in? What their capabilities were?  Hubris can lead to making those kinds of mistakes. Trailers also often jumble up the time line.

More to the point though: it is a well-worn Sci-Fi trope. Doesn't have to make any sense.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Seems like there are some assumptions being made based upon the trailer I would say. Did they know they were even there when they sent those guys in? What their capabilities were?  Hubris can lead to making those kinds of mistakes. Trailers also often jumble up the time line.

More to the point though: it is a well-worn Sci-Fi trope. Doesn't have to make any sense.

I'm actually assuming that since the monetary value of that rock is in question that these are not in fact the military of any nation but rather hired mercenaries.

[WindupAtheist]

Eh, it's all neither here nor there. All they would really need to do is have some villainous officer go rogue and lead his infantry unit on an illegal attack against the natives while the loyal officers in charge of heavier weapons hold back. (There mechfucker, I just solved the whole problem with no historically ignorant tard-frenzy or anime technobabble required. You moron.) But like I said, I just have a gut feeling that the movie is really going to try to bash us over the head with how awesome their blue guys are as they defeat the hapless humans with their amazing native ingenuity.

I could be completely wrong, and the movie could be totally plausible with a few brief lines tossed in here and there that make everything sensible and clear. In which case good job James Cameron, I will be pleasantly surprised and enjoy your movie. Of course, my being wrong about the vibe I took away from a two-minute movie trailer won't make gryeyes any less of a hapless ignorant dipshit.

 

[Broughden]

If you watch the damn trailer, you'll see that their goal is specifically to defend and hold a particular piece of territory. Exactly the sort of scenario a conventional military is intended for.

If you limit your argument to that defensive type scenario then inevitably those with the technological advantage given roughly comparable manpower will win out (ie you are right). But you seemed to be arguing around a broader field of engagement. My interpretation of what you were saying is that technological advantage would always win out in nearly any situation and if it didn't it was because only idiots must be running things. If I misread your argument then I apologize.

[WindupAtheist]

The argument was kind of all over the place, so I can see what it wasn't immediately clear. But yeah, I was talking about the scenario laid out in the trailer, based on the limited information given. There's natives in the jungle, they need to vacate this one village but otherwise we don't give a shit what they do, they're pretty strong close up but they don't have any advanced weaponry. In which case marching into the jungle to fight them with small arms is pretty silly.

We're cool homes. 

[Sheepherder]

So, since we've already established that the humans are perfectly willing to play God by engineering a new race, what is the argument against a nuclear airburst again?

[WindupAtheist]

Not enough charts and/or tables.

Bored and sleep-deprived, waiting to talk to someone on European time. I LIVE TO SERVE.

[Khaldun]

It's SF Ferngully/Dances With Wolves, so I'm sure there's some technobabble plot-device reason why they're going in with small arms fire and mechs. Like, if they bombard the village, it disrupts the energy matrices of the magic rock that they want to mine or somesuch shit like that.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's SF Ferngully/Dances With Wolves, so I'm sure there's some technobabble plot-device reason why they're going in with small arms fire and mechs. Like, if they bombard the village, it disrupts the energy matrices of the magic rock that they want to mine or somesuch shit like that.

BTW, calling it now but the natives have some 'special' connection to the mineral. Be it their holy rock or they are little blue sandworms and that is the spice.

[Draegan]

What I like to know is why they let the wheelchair marine guy still use his Avatar to help out the man-size smurfs?  If you could transfer consciousness like that, I think it's easily assumable that they could watch what he's seeing.  I mean, they did something like that in Fringe.

So they watch what he's doing and then stab him in the chest when he betrayed his own people for his own life-size Smurfette fetish.

[Khaldun]

Well, if the point is that he's trying to be a fifth columnist that will get the Smurfs to move peacefully from the village, it's easy for him to explain away everything as just trying to gain their trust, etcetera. Just from the trailer, I'm inferring that when he genuinely goes native, some of the other Marines join or support his choice and that the facility where they're going into their avatars made not be under Marine control. Or it might be that if you suicide or get killed in your original body while dialed into your avatar, your consciousness survives in the avatar body--so there's another call, at some point the guy is going to choose to literally 'go native' and give up his human body.

[Draegan]

Or it might be that if you suicide or get killed in your original body while dialed into your avatar, your consciousness survives in the avatar body--so there's another call, at some point the guy is going to choose to literally 'go native' and give up his human body.

Meh probably.

[Sir T]

Saw the trailer last night. Got a serious ferngully vibe from it.

[Samwise]

Saw the trailer last night.

 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Saw the trailer last night. Got a serious ferngully vibe from it.

I just want to know why those marines don't just nuke the blue people from orbit, since they are clearly so advanced.

[Cadaverine]

I think the last couple pages of nerd battle with WUA and greyeyes will probably be more interesting than the movie, sadly.

[Sir T]

I think the last couple pages of nerd battle with WUA and greyeyes will probably be more interesting than the movie, sadly.

Main reason why I didn't bother reading the thread and just posted my impressions.

[Trippy]

Next fucker that makes me Den a post from here gets banned.

[schild]

That goes double for people that paid to see Twilight.

[Triforcer]

The "gundam" guy in WUA's mech chart looks like Connor from Angel.  Thanks for ruining this thread for me, after a run of fantastic posts. 

[WindupAtheist]

That guy in the cardboard box is the most awesome cosplayer ever. At least in the "not a girl with nice tits" category. Which admittedly isn't saying much.

[Quinton]

Wow.  This is an impressive thread.


Observation on scale -- apparently, on an entire planet, this fancy unobtanium is so rare that it is only available in useful amounts under one village.  What are the odds of that?

[WindupAtheist]

I just finally watched that video that's now sitting in the den. (Link) Am I allowed to comment upon it in the context of the last three pages of the thread, or not, or what?

[Trippy]

Depends if you think I'm going to Den your post

[WindupAtheist]

Oh, well in that case I'm not worried. I really was just intending to comment upon the video in the context of the thread.

On one hand we have James Cameron saying that the humans are restricted to "mid-21st century technology" by magnetic something-or-other. Which, wow, is some really specific radiation. But since we don't know what post-21st century technology is supposed to look like, and nobody was talking about it anyway, I guess it doesn't matter. There's nothing said about anything restricting them from firing their existing weapons at range.

We see LOTS of heavy firepower. They have some sort of flying battleship, and the helicopters all appear to be packing missiles. We also see lots of intense combat. So the idea that the humans either didn't bring or won't use serious weaponry is right out the window. We even have "The Na'vi can't really fight back when the humans use gunships, machine guns, and these AMP suits" right out of James Cameron's mouth.

On the other hand we still see all the aircraft flying at extreme low altitude so that they can be swarmed by dragons and shit, and we can pretty much count on the hero and his blue buddies winning out in the end somehow. I hope it's something convincing, but I still have a feeling that I'm going to be asking "Wait, why didn't they just fly ten thousand feet up and missile the village to death from miles away?" when it's over.

I should have just watched this in the first place. It doesn't say anything like what it was supposed to have said.

[Venkman]

"Wait, why didn't they just fly ten thousand feet up and missile the village to death from miles away?"

You mean "nuke it from orbit"?

Because that's the vibe I got from this video. It's like they took all the equipment from Aliens that didn't make the cut for that gritty sequel and instead threw them into Halo: The Miner's Adventure (or, they changed the color palette from Aliens). The gunship looks like the Aliens drop ship. The mech warriors look (and are even presented the same way) like the construction walker from Aliens. I'm thinking with Sigourney Weaver is going to climb in one at some point to rescue some kid.

At least your link shows more about the story itself, something that's been sorely lacking. This is useful, because I can manage my expectations down and then hopefully enjoy the movie once I see it

[Ratman_tf]

Oh, well in that case I'm not worried. I really was just intending to comment upon the video in the context of the thread.

On one hand we have James Cameron saying that the humans are restricted to "mid-21st century technology" by magnetic something-or-other. Which, wow, is some really specific radiation. But since we don't know what post-21st century technology is supposed to look like, and nobody was talking about it anyway, I guess it doesn't matter. There's nothing said about anything restricting them from firing their existing weapons at range.

Yup. Looks like it's to limit computer guidance and control. So people can get lost in the woods and they can't use a GPS or radio.

We see LOTS of heavy firepower. They have some sort of flying battleship, and the helicopters all appear to be packing missiles. We also see lots of intense combat. So the idea that the humans either didn't bring or won't use serious weaponry is right out the window. We even have "The Na'vi can't really fight back when the humans use gunships, machine guns, and these AMP suits" right out of James Cameron's mouth.

It looks like the Planet is the real problem. The atmosphere is toxic. The planet's natural magnetic fields fucks with electronics. The animal life is numerous, large and belligerent. Nothing that can't be overcome, but the point seems to be that Pandora is a world hostile to humans.

On the other hand we still see all the aircraft flying at extreme low altitude so that they can be swarmed by dragons and shit, and we can pretty much count on the hero and his blue buddies winning out in the end somehow. I hope it's something convincing, but I still have a feeling that I'm going to be asking "Wait, why didn't they just fly ten thousand feet up and missile the village to death from miles away?" when it's over.

Good lord, man. I know this is your pet issue, but every piece of fiction is by definition unrealistic since it's not real. They could shore up all your complaints and then put Pandora's solar system 500 million miles from earth, or have the base medic defrib a flatline, or have a fire sprinkler system put out nice clean water. 

[WindupAtheist]

Dammit I'm used to Stormtroopers and Redshirts being incompetent slobs. I expect better from James Cameron. I mean, the damn GPS or whatever had BETTER work. The entire premise of the movie revolves around being able to reliably broadcast and receive huge amounts of complex information to and from an avatar in realtime while it runs around waterfall diving and falling in love with blue bitches.

Maybe they can just have a fucking wizard on the base casting spells while people bring him offerings. "Helicopters cannot fly above 400 feet! Cross my palm with silver and you'll be able to broadcast data, but only if the reciever is blue! Missiles will kill your enemies, but only when close enough for them to fight back! Mechs are viable!"

[SurfD]

I get the feeling that one of the reasons they dont jus "nuke them from orbit" might have to do with the whole reason they are there in the first place.  I imagine that very expensive grey rock they want so badly is probably somwhat unstable, and dropping heavy ordinance on their villiage (which is right above the biggest deposit of it) would probably obliterate their intended source of profit along with the natives.

[WindupAtheist]

Someone should probably tell that to the chopper pilots in that preview who where blowing the hell out of shit left and right. While they're at it, someone should also tell them to do it from fifteen thousand feet in the air so that monsters can't swoop up on them unexpectedly.

[Ratman_tf]

I expect better from James Cameron.