Piracy

[Bungee]

Good thing we got the evil imperialists out of Africa. They've done so much with the place. FREEDOM!!! DEMOCRACY!! 

That's why I'm skeptical in the extreme about any peace keeping operations there.  Crazy shit is just bound to happen in Africa.  I think you come out of the womb wielding a rusty machete there.

Now that's just 
I wouldn't even know where to start right now, but this isn't the politics forum, so I'll just try to keep it to myself...

[Cyrrex]

Don't worry.  This is a thread about the actual pirating of a massive oil tanker by evil forces in exotic foreign locations.  It has sex, violence and intrigue, and is therefore destined for the Politics forum.

[Big Gulp]

Now that's just 
I wouldn't even know where to start right now, but this isn't the politics forum, so I'll just try to keep it to myself...

I don't want to get another thread tossed into politics, but I just believe that some parts of the world are pretty much fucked.  Africa being the biggest one.  It's not as simple as saying, "Well, you need to get rid of the corruption", because Africa just has so much working against it. 

If the tribalism, corruption, child soldiers, frequent famines, and nasty endemic diseases weren't enough there's also the culture to consider.  This is a place where the majority of the population has no education and stuff like magic is still very much believed in.  Shit, just the other day I read a story about hunchbacks being targeted and killed in Zimbabwe (I think it was Zimbabwe, in any case) because their humps are believed to have magic powers.  This is a place where the Lords Resistance Army can come out of the woodwork and tell their child soldier slaves that they're immune from bullets because of powerful magic their leader possesses.  Or how about Liberia where you have 14 year old kids in dresses and wigs running around with AK's calling themselves names like "Corporal Death".

Africa's fucked.  If the past 5 years should have taught us anything it's that you can't save the world, and really shouldn't try.  By all means, quarantine the disease, but curing it is a recipe for failure.

[Sky]

Africa and the middle east are what happens when humans have been around too long in the same area. Most people on the planet got fed up and left.

[Hindenburg]

If the tribalism, corruption, child soldiers, frequent famines, and nasty endemic diseases weren't enough there's also the culture to consider.  This is a place where the majority of the population has no education and stuff like magic is still very much believed in.

Shit, change child soldiers for rednecks, famine for obesity, and I could swear you were talking about the States.  Including the magic bit.

In the middle east the issues are far different.

[NowhereMan]

On the issue of government corruption I heard an interesting interview the other day with the author of a book on corruption in cultures, (edit: link) looking at what cultures have more corruption and the effect it seems to have on the country. Intersting point the guy raised is that corruption =! chaotic government with the example of Indonesia which is one of the most corrupt governments in the world but does a good job of distributing aid and has one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

The other interesting element was one of his tests for how open to corruption a society is (and so probably has some bearing on how corrupt it actually is) which involved comparing criminal charges, traffic violations, etc. brought against diplomatic staff on the grounds that they are examples of how people from that culture behave when totally immune from legal coercion. The results aren't exactly shocking, Nigeria was one of the worst while Sweden came out on top (I believe they didn't have a single criminal charge or unpaid parking fine in the last 25 years or so).

Africa as a whole has some pretty fucked countries but the whole continent isn't a write off. South Africa has serious crime problems and isn't dealing with AIDS very well but I wouldn't really call it a third world nation. Places like Kenya aren't doing too badly (edit: Feel I should add that also shows how low the bar is in Africa) and North Africa isn't nearly as badly off as places like the Congo. One could also make an argument that many of the big problems affecting these African nations is the fact that they're made of arbitrary lines drawn on maps by European powers, at best with no thought towards ethnic and tribal territories already there, at worst designed to create conflict among them so they couldn't rise up against their colonial masters. Of course maybe we should just ignore the horrible things going on there and if they want to let them kill themselves they may do so and decrease the surplus population.

[Big Gulp]

South Africa has serious crime problems and isn't dealing with AIDS very well but I wouldn't really call it a third world nation.

Yeah, but on the other hand South Africa in it's current form began as a state relatively recently, and with a high level of development.  The trendline has been downward ever since, and I have no reason to think that it's going to turn around any time soon.  I look at Zimbabwe as being on the same sort of track, it's just further along it.

[Slayerik]

Am I the only one pulling for the pirates? 

[WindupAtheist]

Yes. Death to pirates.

Which is an awesome thing to get to say. 

[NowhereMan]

Yeah, but on the other hand South Africa in it's current form began as a state relatively recently, and with a high level of development.  The trendline has been downward ever since, and I have no reason to think that it's going to turn around any time soon.  I look at Zimbabwe as being on the same sort of track, it's just further along it.

Possibly, they've still got democracy though and even the prospect of the main party losing power. They've also seen what's happened to Zimbabwe so there's a tiny chance that will show them it's not a good idea to start confiscating everyone's property and handing it over to random people that can't really utilise it.

[Aez]

[...] there's also the culture to consider.  This is a place where the majority of the population has no education and stuff like magic is still very much believed in. 

Hum :    Palin Witchcraft

[Big Gulp]

Hum :    Palin Witchcraft

Not to defend Palin, because I do think she's a fucking idiot, but honestly, what would you do in that situation?  It's not like she said, "Yes!  Save me from witches, because they're really making my life a pain in the ass."  Most of us would probably do what she did; just keep our mouths shut and not make a scene.

[IainC]

[...] there's also the culture to consider.  This is a place where the majority of the population has no education and stuff like magic is still very much believed in. 

Hum :    Palin Witchcraft

How about this as a more relevant example.

[Engels]

No you see that's entirely different, because they drive SUVs and don't live in grass huts :P

[Big Gulp]

No you see that's entirely different, because they drive SUVs and don't live in grass huts :P

They also don't engage in cannibalism or have sex with babies and virgins to get rid of their AIDS.

[Engels]

No you see that's entirely different, because they drive SUVs and don't live in grass huts :P

They also don't engage in cannibalism or have sex with babies and virgins to get rid of their AIDS.

We're far too civilized for that. We only eat the flour-based body of Jesus every Sunday and engage in poligamist marriage to minors :P All I'm saying is that its a matter of degree, but not kind.

[Hindenburg]

We're far too civilized for that. We only eat the flour-based body of Jesus every Sunday and engage in poligamist marriage to minors :P All I'm saying is that its a matter of degree, but not kind.

You forgot that we also drink his blood. 

Also, since we're taking the trash and making it rule, we lynch people with black skin.

[Litigator]

It isn't a problem with agreements with Somalia, it has to do with stuff like the Law of the Sea which everybody signed on to.  Things like, you can't open up on a ship even if they look like pirates, you either have to send a boarding party to verify, or catch them in the act.  So basically, you have to catch them in the act, which is tricky, as they launch lighting attacks and there's only a small window for a (hopefully) nearby naval ship to intervene and stop them from boarding.  Once they are on board, theres nothing the navy can do.

Anyways, BBC wrote up a decent article on the problems:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7735144.stm

International law is one thing on paper, but the reality is that states do whatever they want unless someone wants to send an army in to haul somebody into ICC.  The only thing that forces the US to obey international law is US law that requires government agencies to obey treaties; i.e. it's a problem if US soldiers violate the UN Convention Against Torture because the US has adopted the Convention as US law. If the US said "we're going to shock some terrorists in the balls and blast shitty little Somali pirates out of the water" nobody else on earth would do anything about it.   


If the Saudis hired some kind of contractors to kill every Somali within 30 miles of that tanker, and take it back, nobody would give a fuck, and therefore, there would be no repercussions under international law.

[Murgos]

Meh, the international problem is extremely straight forward.  "Don't start blasting the pirates because that would scare them, scared pirates kill hostages and destroy ships and cargo."

At the moment the hostages are all well taken care of everything is handled cleanly and the only things hurt are some portion of the profits of the cargo.  No one wants to upset what really is a minor problem by throwing stuff around.

[IainC]

Meh, the international problem is extremely straight forward.  "Don't start blasting the pirates because that would scare them, scared pirates kill hostages and destroy ships and cargo."

At the moment the hostages are all well taken care of everything is handled cleanly and the only things hurt are some portion of the profits of the cargo.  No one wants to upset what really is a minor problem by throwing stuff around.

It's not even that complex tbh. The number one issue is that a pirate ship looks like every other fucking vessel in the region right up to the point where the crew break out the ak-47s and hit the dinghies. No navy on the planet is going to start sinking ships at random on the off chance of hitting a pirate. They don't have red names floating over their heads or a jolly roger flying from the mast.

[stray]

Africa and the middle east are what happens when humans have been around too long in the same area. Most people on the planet got fed up and left.

I don't believe Africa is like that. It's underdeveloped. If anything, I don't think it's had it's true day in the sun as far as civilization goes. Not a chance. These may all be birthpangs to it, if you will. Maybe it'll be a great place one day.


The Middle East is strictly political. It's civilization gone awry.

[lac]

Pirate 'mothership' was really Thai fishing boat

woops

The pirate “mothership” destroyed by the Indian Navy in the Gulf of Aden was a Thai fishing boat that had been hijacked and whose crew were tied up below decks.

The vessel, which was sunk by INS Tabar, an Indian frigate, on the night of November 18, was the Ekawat Nava 5, a deep-sea trawler, rather than a floating pirate armoury loaded with supplies of ammunition and explosives, as India had claimed.

Yarrrrr

[TheWalrus]

Since when did the Sand People go to sea? What do they do with their banthas?

[Hindenburg]

Since when did the Sand People go to sea?

Since ever.

We're calling them sand peoples now? Oh PC, is there anything that you won't ruin?

[Trippy]

Whoosh!

[Hindenburg]

On one hand, I didn't get the reference.
On  the other hand, it proves that i'm not a Star Wars geek.

I'll write it off as a win. 

[Murgos]

On one hand, I didn't get the reference.
On  the other hand, it proves that i'm not a Star Wars geek.

I'll write it off as a win. 

You also just missed a perfect opportunity to use a 'on the gripping hand reference.

I think you may be on the wrong website.

[Hindenburg]

Gave up on Larry Niven after the first ringworld. His fault for making the guy a drug hobo.

I DO know what yaranaika is, though, and can eat any sort of food while looking at the pain series, so I guess that evens things out. 

If this were the tv/scifi forum, you'd be right.

[Kitsune]

Well, if any military gets their thumb out of their ass, the problem will end briefly; these guys aren't exactly the brightest bulbs.  I remember something like a year ago, some pirates decided to pick a fight with a US missile cruiser.  A big-ass warship that can rain missiley death anywhere within hundreds of miles, and they shot at it.  And right next to the missile cruiser was a fucking missile destroyer, so just to put the cherry on top these retards shot not just at a warship, but a FLEET of warships.

Needless to say, once they finished laughing the sailors proceeded to soundly blow the hell out of the pirates.  Which is what will happen on a wider scale as soon as any navy steps up to handle the issue.

On the funnier side of the issue, some of our radical islamist friends have decided that they're unhappy about Saudi ships being hijacked, and declared that they're going to do something about it.  Pirates vs. terrorists vs. ninjas on the high seas, yar!

[Yoru]

On the funnier side of the issue, some of our radical islamist friends have decided that they're unhappy about Saudi ships being hijacked, and declared that they're going to do something about it.  Pirates vs. terrorists vs. ninjas on the high seas, yar!

Sounds like the next multiplayer blockbuster from Valve.

[JoeTF]

I dreamed for Black Lagoon styled mmorpg for years. Shooting tankers with RPGs ownz!

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

Oceania Cruises' Nautica successfully evaded an attempt by pirates to seize the ship, the company said today. The statement is as follows:

"On November 30, 2008, at approximately 0928 local time, 0528 GMT, M/S NAUTICA was transiting through the Gulf of Aden within the prescribed Maritime Safety Protection Area which is patrolled by international anti-piracy task forces. As the vessel sailed past several groups of non-hostile fishing vessels, two small skiffs were sighted by the Officer on Duty and deemed potentially hostile. The skiffs, approaching from a range of approximately 1000 meters, attempted to intercept the vessel's course.

"Captain Jurica Brajcic and his officers immediately began evasive maneuvers and took all prescribed precautions. NAUTICA was immediately brought to flank speed and was able to out run the two skiffs. One of the skiffs did manage to close the range to approximately 300 yards and fired eight rifle shots in the direction of the vessel before trailing off. No one aboard NAUTICA was harmed and no damage was sustained.

"All guests and crew onboard are safe and there were no injuries. All requisite international authorities have been notified and all anti-piracy precautions were in place prior to the event and all necessary measures were taken during the event."





The Gulf of Aden lies between the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea. Bordered by Djibouti and Somalia to the south west, and Yemen, to the north, this waterway is a mere 18 miles wide at its narrowest point (the Bab el Mandab Strait). It's one of the most dangerous places in the world for ships, cargo and cruise vessels alike, to pass through due to increased piracy in the area.

This is actually the second time this year that pirates have zeroed in on a cruise ship. Le Ponant, a three masted luxury vessel, was seized in April by Somali pirates. That vessel was carrying 30 crew members -- though no passengers -- and after an eight day standoff those onboard were rescued. The ship ultimately was also rescued and pirates were captured.

Seabourn Spirit successfully outran a pirate attack in December 2005.

Most cruise ships that transit this most dangerous of international waterways are equipped with anti-piracy weaponry. A cruise captain whose ship traveled from the Mediterranean to the Seychelles already this fall, told Cruise Critic that particularly effective is a sonic device that is in essence like a heavy duty stereo speaker. It sends a sonic wave out to a directed target, punishing with a sound so potentially powerful that it bursts eardrums and shocks pirates into dropping weapons and losing focus.





If the Gulf of Aden is so dangerous why do cruise ships continue to sail through it? "Right now the Gulf of Aden is the most viable gateway between the Mediterranean and Asia says Oceania Cruises' Tim Rubacky. The only other option is to feature itineraries that cruise down the west coast of Africa and there's a reason why few cruise lines offer such trips. It adds an additional 20 - 30 days to an already lengthy trip.

For instance, next fall, Princess Cruises' Ocean Princess, on its way from Europe to the Far East that skips the Gulf of Aden, will sail two repositionings to get to Singapore, the ultimate destination. The first is a 31 night Dover to Capetown cruise. There are just 13 ports of call on the schedule and most, aside from Lisbon, Le Havre, Casablanca and Dakar, are anything but household names. Ocean Princess will then depart from for a 32 night Capetown to Singapore voyage; with just nine stops on land, sea days again vastly outnumber port calls.

In contrast, when Oceania Nautica returns to Europe next April, it will do so via a 35 night cruise between Hong Kong and Athens. That's literally half the length of a voyage around Africa.

As well, the region isn't as risky for cruise ships as it clearly has been for cargo vessels and oil tankers (which is why the occasional cruise ship run-in with pirates makes significantly more headlines). Cruise ships are less of an easy target with significantly larger crew members and less easy-to-access open deck space

[SnakeCharmer]

If the Gulf of Aden is so dangerous why do cruise ships continue to sail through it?

Same reason cargo ships sail through it:  Shortest distance between two points.

[Kitsune]

The cruise lines are kinda fucked in that regard.  They can't get escort ships, it would scare the shit out of the passengers to have a destroyer ambling next to the ship for the trip.  They can't add extra weeks to the travel time without losing too many passengers; the people who can afford to take a month-long cruise are few and far between compared to the people who can afford a week or two.  And if some pirate assholes row over and take some potshots at their ship, they'll surely wind up refunding the passengers' money at the end.

[MisterNoisy]

I wonder how long it'll be/how bad it'll have to get before someone decides to resurrect the Q-ship idea to try and deal with this or just go all out with naval patrols, etc.