Lost [FINALE SPOILERS PAGE 25 ONWARDS]

[Merusk]

Wife just told me this is supposedly getting a spinoff called "Flash Forward" or something like that. Look for it to be tied in with next week's Faraday episode and clips/ hints to be shown during the commercial break.

[HaemishM]

Not a Lost spinoff.

Story here

[KallDrexx]

Viewership is tanking lately. They had 13.5M viewers at the beginning of this season, and they were down to as few as 8.5M at episode 12. They have fallen way outside of the Top 10 shows on broadcast TV as well. American Idol and Dancing with the Stars had more viewers in one week than LOST has had total in it's last 6 episodes.

In short, the show is getting murdered because people are tired of their bullshit. Tossing a clip show out there is putting holes in an already sinking ship. I can't believe they pulled that nonsense. I mean Wheel of Fortune puts up better numbers than 8.5M. That's no joke, either.

I noticed the readership numbers too when I was on wikipedia the other day (looking to see how many more episodes there will be in this season) and it kind of disappointed me and reminded me why the quality of TV sucks.  I actually think that this season has been great so far, and yet with viewer numbers tanking this season I guess I am far from the majority in what makes a tv show good.

[Ozzu]

I noticed the readership numbers too when I was on wikipedia the other day (looking to see how many more episodes there will be in this season) and it kind of disappointed me and reminded me why the quality of TV sucks.  I actually think that this season has been great so far, and yet with viewer numbers tanking this season I guess I am far from the majority in what makes a tv show good.

This.

This has been a great season and probably my favorite season of the whole series. I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to my television viewing habits.

[Paelos]

The average viewer isn't terribly intrigued with character interplay on a show about various mysteries. What they want is answers, and then more questions, with eventually more answers, some deaths, explosions, big events, etc. What they don't want is hour long segments of the show to drag in the middle while they learn about character minutia.

In this season we have:

Season Opener - Time is shifting all over the place, bloody noses, Jack and Ben working together, Sayid and Hurley killing potential assassins, and Kate bailing out after the lawyers come a knocking. All in all it was a great opener.

Episodes 2-4 - Crazy flaming arrows in the middle of the night, Hurley tries to get Sayid back to health, then turns himself over to the cops when Ben wants him to come back to the island. The timejumpers meet young Widmore, while Faraday's group gets captured and finds a nuke. Kate rambles around trying to find out who's behind the lawyers wanting "her" child. However, it's not Claire's mother, it's actually Ben. Shocker. Everyone meets on a dock. Sun is pissed. Charlotte continues to bleed out with timegroup. That was 3 episodes.

Episode 5 - This is the first redeemer episode of the season. After this the numbers jump back up to over 13M viewers. The Smoke Monster is finally back, young Rousseau gets some killer background story, Charlotte finally dies off with an eerie confession, Locke meets Christian and cranks the wheel after busting his leg. This, imo, is one of the best episodes.

Episode 6-9 - "aka the boring episodes that killed the viewership" - Jack puts his Dad's shoes on Locke, everyone gets on Flight 316. Locke is revived on the island. Flashback to Locke arriving from the wheel in Tunisia and working for Whitmore, but failing miserably to collect anyone. His driver (creepy Black Dude) gets iced. Ben talks Locke out of killing himself only to kill him anyway. Locke's move has saved the timewandering group, who ends up getting buddy-buddy with Dharma. The 316 wash up 3 years after the wandering group has entrenched their postions with Dharma. Sawyer finagles the returning group into Dharma, except Sayid who gets captured. That was four hours worth of mostly crap you already knew and flashbacks to those points. Outside of Ben killing Locke, it was a total YAWN.

Episode 10 - Redeemer episode #2 - We get to see the young Ben Linus interacting with Sayid. We get to see what a jackass Ben's father is. In an ironic twist, Sayid is the one getting tortured, but when he tells the actual truth, it's so outlandish nobody believes it. Dharma actually votes to kill Sayid (and I thought they were hippies). We get the flaming Dharma van crashing into houses. Ben escapes with Sayid, and Sayid actually shoots the little fucker in the chest. All in all, it was really good and probably the second best of the season. Numbers jump up again next week.

Episode 11 - aka "The Worst episode of the season" - Kate and Juliet work to give Ben to the others so he can be saved. That was it. The numbers TANKED after this epsiode dropping over 2.8M or 25% because of this bomb.

Episodes 12-13 - Imo, they were pretty good. Ben gets judged by the monster, we find out there's this "shadow of the statue" faction running around, Miles has daddy issues and actually gets to meet his father. There's lots of focus on Ben, which is always a good thing considering he's one of the more interesting characters. Also, Locke actually gets cooler as these go on. Oh and we get to see Desmond beat the everyloving shit out of Ben, and also Ben unloading a shotgun for no reason on Caesar.

There are a lot of classic moments here, but the fact remains that most of the numbers left the building after the show redeemed itself twice and then failed to deliver yet again the next week. The pacing is just really really shitty right now on LOST and it's hard to keep the audience consistently involved.

[HaemishM]

Other than the ratings numbers, I disagree with what you said.

[Teleku]

Ditto

[Paelos]

It's fine that yall believe the shows were good. That's totally subjective. What isn't subjective is that people obviously didn't respond to episodes where very little happened in terms of action or reveals. The middle episodes drove the numbers down slowly, they popped back up briefly, and then they totally tanked.

[HaemishM]

Which is why I made the specific exception for your numbers. I think those shows were very good, but most people wouldn't know good shit if it was Cleveland Steamered on their chests.

[Paelos]

You can't force people to like something. To be frank, I thought the shows in the middle were slow. They weren't "bad" they were just slow. The problem is that when you are already at half your original viewership over 5 seasons, and the main complaint in the past was that the show was slow, well...

That Place is Death.

[Teleku]

I stopped giving any care about viewership numbers in relation to quality a long time ago.  There are many many great things that get horrible ratings (and visa versa).  Its a complete non factor to me now.

[Ozzu]

I stopped giving any care about viewership numbers in relation to quality a long time ago.  There are many many great things that get horrible ratings (and visa versa).  Its a complete non factor to me now.

It's especially a non-factor when this show is going to get another complete season regardless of what happens with the ratings this season and that is the season that is going to wrap everything up.

I honestly don't care about the ratings when it comes to this show because it has zero effect on me or the show itself.

[Quinton]

I stopped giving any care about viewership numbers in relation to quality a long time ago.  There are many many great things that get horrible ratings (and visa versa).  Its a complete non factor to me now.

It's especially a non-factor when this show is going to get another complete season regardless of what happens with the ratings this season and that is the season that is going to wrap everything up.

My only concern would be if the ratings are so bad somehow the network could cancel it anyway.

I have to admit to being completely puzzled as to the poor ratings given that the whole season has been utterly fantastic, in my opinion.  I've enjoyed every episode.  Nothing anywhere near polar bear cage levels of suckitude ^^

[Ozzu]

My only concern would be if the ratings are so bad somehow the network could cancel it anyway.

I have to admit to being completely puzzled as to the poor ratings given that the whole season has been utterly fantastic, in my opinion.  I've enjoyed every episode.  Nothing anywhere near polar bear cage levels of suckitude ^^

Brian

That's true. That would be a concern, but considering the poor ratings for ABC shows in general, save Dancing with the Stars, I can't see them cancelling it unless it just goes completely in the toilet.

Oh and you are correct about the polar bear cage suckitude. I got some enjoyment out of Sawyer figuring out how to get a fish biscuit, but that was about it out of that whole few episodes.

[Quinton]

Oh and you are correct about the polar bear cage suckitude. I got some enjoyment out of Sawyer figuring out how to get a fish biscuit, but that was about it out of that whole few episodes.

I forgot about that.  The fish biscuit thing was actually funny.  But otherwise those early season three episodes represented the low point of the series for me.  Thankfully they redeemed themselves.

[Soln]

I'm still waiting for the worst case -- they get canceled early and need to solve everything double-time.  And finish with an ending like the final (goofball) episode of The Prisoner.  That I would not like (regardless of my enjoyment of the rest of that series).

[Johny Cee]

I stopped giving any care about viewership numbers in relation to quality a long time ago.  There are many many great things that get horrible ratings (and visa versa).  Its a complete non factor to me now.

Viewership numbers are important when compared to production costs, whether you care about popularity or not.  I roll my eyes every time a quirky high production genre show is launched.  It's got failure stamped on it, because it's only interesting to a minor subsection of the audience that will never provide the numbers to keep the show on the air.

The problem with Lost, as Paelos well illustrated, is it jumped straight into a weird time travel story arc, with little consistent episode to episode payoff, while paying short shrift to the drama and character interaction stuff that put the asses in the seats of people that normally wouldn't watch a scifi/fantasy program.  Drop in viewership plus high production costs means trouble.

Quality is mostly subjective, as well. 

Compare shows like House, Rescue Me, Firefly, and Seinfeld.  All of these have been lauded in general as having especially high quality (at least in their prime).  And more likely than not, as individuals, we find that we might not particularly like one or more of them.

That doesn't mean your taste sucks.  It just means you have different tastes.

I enjoy Rescue Me, but couldn't really get into Mad Men.  I just find that I like my flawed, self-centered characters (with some redeeming qualities) to self-destruct in a more quickly paced and entertaining manner.

[Cheddar]

Are you guys taking DVD sales into account? 

[Paelos]

The only reason I bring up the numbers is that it won't stop them from doing a 6th season, but if the trend they are taking continues it could force them to abbreviate Season 6. That would suck, maybe. Or it could be awesome and make them actually move things forward quickly.

[Abagadro]

I believe they have contractually locked in the number of episodes left. If it truly tanks, ABC could choose not to air them, but I am fairly confident that all of the episodes have been funded and will be produced so they would be seen eventually.  I think Lost does well with a coveted demographic and DVD sales/rentals are good so I'm not all that worried about it.

[Paelos]

Well that's something then. In the meantime, bring on more monster!

[Lucas]

HOLY.

SHIT.
 

[Merusk]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

And damnit.

[Quinton]

That was spectacular.  And sad.  Argh.  Also, it was all Kate's fault.

[Evildrider]

$@#@*!*#^$@!

[Lucas]

Anyways, when all it's said and done, it looks like Daniel failed in his attempt to change the course of events: if Jack, Sawyer & Co. will try and eventually succeed in leaving 1977, they will leave the Dharma initiative behind, and whatever happened after 1977 (Purge etc.) will still happen.

[Jobu]

Anyways, when all it's said and done, it looks like Daniel failed in his attempt to change the course of events: if Jack, Sawyer & Co. will try and eventually succeed in leaving 1977, they will leave the Dharma initiative behind, and whatever happened after 1977 (Purge etc.) will still happen.

Or maybe he was doing all of that to make sure the event happened. And by telling everyone the opposite, he ensures they go and do what they are supposed to do to make it happen.  Time travel logic always hurts.

[Soln]

I hope the Island gives him a rez 

[HaemishM]

I hope the Island gives him a rez 

That was my thought as well. The island has shown an amazing ability to keep people alive for as long as it needs them to be alive, even when they aren't on the island.

[Samwise]

It would make Eloise's sending him to the island much more palatable, that's for sure.  Because if she knew he was going to die and that the island wasn't going to rez him, that's just all kinds of fucked up.

[Teleku]

Considering her talk with Charles, she seemed pretty damn certain he died.  So if he does get a res, its going to have to be without her knowledge.

I do however think, regardless of him living or not, they will change the future somehow.  They had Faraday setup the fact that it was possible for them to change things, and I think that was put in place to foreshadow/justify whats coming up.

[Quinton]

On the other hand, her pushing Dan so hard on his research and sending the O6 back may be her attempt to change the past and somehow save him from his fate.  Of course, assuming she originally got his journal when he died in '77, she doesn't know what happens from here on -- if her attempt worked or if she doomed him to die at her hand again.  Perhaps Jack will save him.

Ben looked like he was damn unlikely to survive when Sayid shot him -- so you never know, maybe they didn't really kill Faraday... though this may just be wishful thinking on my part.

[raydeen]

I don't buy Dan's explanation that the past can't be changed but the future can. From what the show has demonstrated so far, the past, present and future are all immutable and exist simultaneously. The future is simply the past that hasn't happened yet. The only way Dan's theory pans out is if a whole new branch in the timeline happens and then exists parallel to the original future. It'll be interesting to see how the writers work this one out.

[Paelos]

He made his mother shoot him. There was absolutely no reason for him to demand a gun for a negotiation. He was always planning for it to happen.

[Johny Cee]

He made his mother shoot him. There was absolutely no reason for him to demand a gun for a negotiation. He was always planning for it to happen.

Great call.  Makes perfect sense.

He got Dharma riled up by talking to the Asian doctor.  He got the time travellers riled up, and brought Jack and Kate to the Others.  He then got the Others riled up.

The only way it works is if Dan believes that the past can't be changed, but he knows that he has a part to play to set up the events.  If he honestly wanted to stop things, he wouldn't have half-assed the attempt to dissuade Miles father and he wouldn't have walked right into the Others camp and held their leader at gunpoint (especially considering that he never really used guns before, and he commented that he didn't like guns at the locker).

The mindscrew is that everyone will act as if the Incident could be prevented, and then find out that Dan set them up to make the incident happen.