Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Chimpy]

Really? Shit, I don't remember that at ALL. Not that my memory is the greatest.

[eldaec]

I see three candidates for last scene of the season, and my best guess is a crap load more likely in my eyes.

I think your best guess is more likely to happen mid-late episode and the last scene of the episode will be the same one as the last scene of the book.

There has to be a fairly good chance they won't do this.

[eldaec]

Otoh I imagine they would have leaked that they weren't doing it by now, just to manage expectations.

[Chimpy]

I think some of the things you mentioned are going to be in the first couple of episodes of next season and not in the first episode of this one. I can see in my mind 2 possibilities of what the final image is going to be, and both of them are part of the same "smelly" scenario.

[Ingmar]

Otoh I imagine they would have leaked that they weren't doing it by now, just to manage expectations.

FWIW HBO has submitted Episode 10 for an Emmy for:


I kind of take that as an indicator.

[jgsugden]

Otoh I imagine they would have leaked that they weren't doing it by now, just to manage expectations.

FWIW HBO has submitted Episode 10 for an Emmy for:


I kind of take that as an indicator.

[Merusk]

 

[jgsugden]

Syfy/Blastr gets a lot wrong, but I do like this....

[Threash]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

[Pagz]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

I'll hold you to that, hopefully all this death is going somewhere (that's not a disappointing ending).

[Fordel]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

I would agree with that except for Oberyn vs The Mountain. That was just the classic hur hur I lost the fight but wait my last gasp will let me win anyways.

[Samwise]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

I would agree with that except for Oberyn vs The Mountain. That was just the classic hur hur I lost the fight but wait my last gasp will let me win anyways.

Oberyn was obsessed with revenge, and that made him sloppy.  He knew (and we the audience knew, thanks to foreshadowing) that his only way to beat the Mountain was to stay out of reach and wear him down, and that if he ever got in arm's reach he was fucked.  He got in arm's reach to try to extract his precious confession.  Oops.

[Threash]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

I would agree with that except for Oberyn vs The Mountain. That was just the classic hur hur I lost the fight but wait my last gasp will let me win anyways.

I disagree, Oberyn was just another flawed character who paid the price when he let his flaws get the best of him at a crucial moment.

[Fordel]

Nah, even a dude that big and strong isn't doing that after the stabbing he got, plus the poison, plus the general exhaustion of the fight.

Like, if he killed him during the fight, if Oberyn's obsession caused him to miss a dodge or get too close or whatever, fine. He gets cleaved in two and the fights over.

Reverse the situation, say the Mountain had got a hold of Oberyn and was starting to crush him but at the last moment Oberyn pulls out a hidden dagger from his sleeve and stabs the Mountain and wins the day. It would be horse shit that served the plot or whatever you want to call it.


Feels the same to me here, doesn't feel like what would happen, but what the author wanted to happen for whatever reason.

[Setanta]

People fuck up and die IRL
Oberyn fucked up and died - it happens. I always feel that GRRM doesn't kill characters to make a point other than to show that all men can die.

Sets the scene for the sand snakes, revenge and Dorne because King's Landing is pretty much played out leaving us with for the North/wall and beyond and Dany sitting on her arse doing sweet FA.

I'm hoping they really break with Dany's story and get things moving towards Bravos and Dorne.

[Merusk]

Oberyn's poison is very slow-acting. It takes the Mountain months to die, hinting it would have taken weeks for a normal sized man.  Oberyn wanted the mountain to suffer, not just die.  So it was only 3 stabbings, including one in the chest that wasn't meant to kill just incapacitate.  Oberyn was showing-off and thought he'd won because the Mountain was hamstrung.

He got knocked to the ground when off-guard. Totally plausible.  Mountain rolled on him and kept him pin, 100% plausible as the guy was 300# or better. The only thing that was fucked about the scene was the head-crushing, which was done for pure visual gore to play to the TV audience.  Read portions of the book again last night while trying to decide what's happening in the last episode and came across the scene.  In the book the Mountain punches him to death which is much more plausible than "ooho, head smush."

So, yeah, even there it was a deserved death done well. It came across as a hamfisted GRR 'kill the good guy' trope because of the TV presentation.

[kaid]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

And so did the beetles.

[kaid]

It's pretty retarded really, he's not randomly killing people for the hell of it.  People die exactly where they should.

I would agree with that except for Oberyn vs The Mountain. That was just the classic hur hur I lost the fight but wait my last gasp will let me win anyways.

Oberyn was obsessed with revenge, and that made him sloppy.  He knew (and we the audience knew, thanks to foreshadowing) that his only way to beat the Mountain was to stay out of reach and wear him down, and that if he ever got in arm's reach he was fucked.  He got in arm's reach to try to extract his precious confession.  Oops.

Also he is the red viper of dorn he knew that the mountain was already dead no matter what the outcome of the fight after he managed to cut him once.

[Threash]

Also the big stab was through the gut, not the chest.  Oberyn couldn't stab the mountain on the chest without a step ladder.

[Lantyssa]

I disagree, Oberyn was just another flawed character who paid the price when he let his flaws get the best of him at a crucial moment.

Oberyn wanted to die.  He just wanted to take the Mountain with him.  Ellia meant everything to him, and with his revenge satisfied he didn't care anymore.

[Ironwood]

I'm not really sure that's the case.

[Rasix]

I disagree, Oberyn was just another flawed character who paid the price when he let his flaws get the best of him at a crucial moment.

Oberyn wanted to die.  He just wanted to take the Mountain with him.  Ellia meant everything to him, and with his revenge satisfied he didn't care anymore.

[Ruvaldt]

I don't believe that.

Killing the Mountain didn't satisfy his revenge.  He also wanted Tywin to pay for giving the order, whether he actually did or not.  Not to mention the fact that he doesn't act like a man who wants to die in the book or the show.

[Threash]

I disagree, Oberyn was just another flawed character who paid the price when he let his flaws get the best of him at a crucial moment.

Oberyn wanted to die.  He just wanted to take the Mountain with him.  Ellia meant everything to him, and with his revenge satisfied he didn't care anymore.

No way, he wasn't satisfied AT ALL by killing the mountain.  He wanted Tywin a lot more than he wanted Gregor, that's why he ended up losing the fight.

[Pennilenko]

Unfortunately, Oberyn's death scene was it for me. I can no longer stand to watch this show due to a syndrome I call "Quit fucking killing characters I like you fucks!"

[Chimpy]

Unfortunately, Oberyn's death scene was it for me. I can no longer stand to watch this show due to a syndrome I call "Quit fucking killing characters I like you fucks!"

Then you will miss the parts where people you DON'T like die!

[jgsugden]

Martin is on record saying that Martel wanted Tywin and saw the Mountain as the key to the real prize.  He was not ready to die.  Oberyn Martel screwed up and died for it, and Tywin Lanister's greatest foe was off the board...

[Pennilenko]

Martin is on record saying that Martel wanted Tywin and saw the Mountain as the key to the real prize.  He was not ready to die.  Oberyn Martel screwed up and died for it, and Tywin Lanister's greatest foe was off the board...

Well shit, looks like I have to continue watching.

[Merusk]

I'm not really sure that's the case.

Considering Oberyn says something along the lines of, "Starting with you..." yeah, it's not.

[Viin]

Well shit, looks like I have to continue watching.

 

[Yegolev]

I disagree, Oberyn was just another flawed character who paid the price when he let his flaws get the best of him at a crucial moment.

Yes.  If Obie only wanted Mtn to die, he would have actually finished the job, perhaps with several more stabs to the neck via spear, instead of trying to force a confession.  Hubris!

[Samwise]

Most of the deaths on this show (at least for the "good guy" characters) come down to hubris.  Somebody gets cocky and thinks they can do stupid shit because they're untouchable.  Then they do stupid shit and die in a predictable way.  Ned made a stupid move tipping his hand to Cersei, because he thought he was protected by Robert and the law.  Robb made a stupid move breaking his oath to Frey and then making himself vulnerable in Frey's home, because he thought he was too well-loved in the North to be betrayed there.  Etc etc etc.  Once someone starts thinking and acting like they're the hero of the story, they get stupid, and then they get killed.

Except for Arya and Dany.  Their stupid decisions tend to work out okay in the end, at least for them.

[Teleku]

Going to have to disagree on the specifics there, but yeah, I agree Oberyn had no intention of dying.  But that doesn't change the fact Martin wrote him into doing something fuck stupid so he could kill him, much like the rest of his good characters.  While most of the one dimensional sado-masochistic characters live through everything out of their shear cruelty, superiority, and general badassness.   

Most of the deaths on this show (at least for the "good guy" characters) come down to hubris.  Somebody gets cocky and thinks they can do stupid shit because they're untouchable.  Then they do stupid shit and die in a predictable way.  Ned made a stupid move tipping his hand to Cersei, because he thought he was protected by Robert and the law.  

Ned died because he was compasionate towards Cersei and wanted to give her a chance to flee with her children so they could escape the horrors of prosecution.  If he had simply killed her son and spent an entire season raping her, he'd still be alive and well.

Robb made a stupid move breaking his oath to Frey and then making himself vulnerable in Frey's home, because he thought he was too well-loved in the North to be betrayed there.  Etc etc etc.  Once someone starts thinking and acting like they're the hero of the story, they get stupid, and then they get killed.

Robb died only because the Frey's gave them protection under the old oaths of bread and salt.  They suspected the shit out of the Freys walking into that, but were put on ease by them doing things and making oaths that no sane lord would possibly break.  Feeling he was loved or protected was never implied anywhere in the books or movies.  If he had moved his men in, killed the Frey leadership right after they did the bread and salt ceremony, then spent an entire season raping all his daughters, he'd still be alive.

Except for Arya and Dany.  Their stupid decisions tend to work out okay in the end, at least for them.

Thats mainly because they go about murdering people left and right, if not torturing or raping (which leads to a longer life span in the books).

In short, if you are in any way compassionate and/or not sado-masochistic rapist, you will almost certainly die.

I love the books and the series, but he really does go a bit overboard in one direction.  If he wants to be internally consistent (for his oath foreshadowing at least), the entire Frey clan should be violently killed before the series ends.

[Merusk]

Sociopaths succeed in cultures with loose rules and grey areas over those who attempt to live in a civil and structured society?

My god, let's hope they never figure that out!

 

[Samwise]

Let's be clear -- there's a difference between showing compassion and exposing your tender throat-meat to a psychopath.

Taking Ned as the first and best example -- he warns Cersei off because he thinks she's going to do something COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER, which is admit defeat, turn tail, and run.  And this is after he already suspects that she had Jon Arryn killed to stop him from doing THE EXACT THING HE IS ABOUT TO DO.  Which he is now TELLING HER HE IS ABOUT TO DO.

Do we see how utterly this is, in retrospect?

I mean, it all seems quite reasonable if you look at it from the angle of "this is what a HERO does, he shows mercy to his enemies," which is the angle that Ned was looking at it from.  But that angle doesn't make any sense unless you assume that the heroes have plot armor or that their enemies will be dumb and/or admit defeat at the first setback and/or not use the nuclear option when backed into a corner.