Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Speedy Cerviche]

Sounds like some people are taking this too seriously, keep in mind it's still fictional fantasy pulp. On the upper end of that catagory, but not exactly great literature.

[HaemishM]

That really is a specious, idiotic argument to make about any sort of entertainment.

[Paelos]

That really is a specious, idiotic argument to make about any sort of entertainment.

It's more of my opinion on why I don't like the character. I think she's shallow, and that GRRM manipulates the audience with her Dark Avenger trope.

As an example of the more complex character I do like, I think Jaime Lannister is especially well-written.

[HaemishM]

Jamie Lannister is one that has just gotten more interesting over time. Arya did as well, though her time

 seems to be dragging on.

Cersei has gotten much less interesting when she doesn't have foils to play off of like Tyrion.

[Paelos]

I think Jaime had more internal conflict from his backstory alone as the Kingslayer. He takes a ton of shit for killing a guy that was an insane murdering rapist, because he took an oath to protect said guy. It's a tough moral nut that kept getting worse and worse until he acted, and his motivations are cast into some doubt because his family betrayed the King.

[Nevermore]

He's still a guy who fucks his sister and kicks a kid out of a window.

[Paelos]

He's still a guy who fucks his sister and kicks a kid out of a window.

No doubt, but he's got a ton of internal conflicts and shifting priorities as things unfold. There's history, change, and in some cases character growth in opposite directions.

[Threash]

I think Jaime had more internal conflict from his backstory alone as the Kingslayer. He takes a ton of shit for killing a guy that was an insane murdering rapist, because he took an oath to protect said guy. It's a tough moral nut that kept getting worse and worse until he acted, and his motivations are cast into some doubt because his family betrayed the King.

It wasn't even just that, he also has to go his whole life hearing about the other guys.  The ones who served the crazy murdering torture rape fire maniac right until the very end.  Those guys? oh they are fucking legendary heroes of legend that sweat glory and jizz honor.  Yeah, those guys who stopped him when he tried to stop the crazy fuck from raping his wife, everyone thinks they are swell. Can't really blame the guy from having a different view on the whole "honor" thing.

[K9]

Chalk me up as another member of the 'Jaime Lannister is the most interesting Lannister' camp; I think he's probably the character who feels the most human out of the lot of them.

Jamie Lannister is one that has just gotten more interesting over time. Arya did as well, though her time

 seems to be dragging on.

Cersei has gotten much less interesting when she doesn't have foils to play off of like Tyrion.

Everything is dragging in book 4; I think it's a symptom of GRRM getting lost in the woods and not having a clear path out.

[Merusk]

Jamie's a fool and a tool who's been used and reused time and again and never realizes it.  His sister, his father, his kings all used him with not a second thought.  He's not died because he was pretty and had a gift for swordplay.  Now he's trying to set his own course and I expect him to fail spectacularly.   

[Paelos]

Pretty much every character is a fool at some point, if not multiple points. The least foolish character in the whole thing seems to be Patchface.

[MediumHigh]

Jaime Lannister is the most honest character in the series. Everyone else has their head very far up their own ass for better or for worse. If he never met Cersei, like the bitch wasn't born, he'd  be a lot like Tywins brother Kevan.

[Cyrrex]

Except for kicking Bran out the window, Jaime seems a decent chap.  It looks like he is becoming a better person, thanks in no small part to big ole whatsherface. 

[MediumHigh]

I think losing his hand and being the fuck away from his sister is what sobered him.

[Phildo]

Except for kicking Bran out the window, Jaime seems a decent chap.

This can also be attributed to panic, since he was about to be caught doing something that could ruin both himself and his sister.

[Threash]

If by ruin you mean get their heads detached from their shoulders, we aren't talking about about besmirching their reputation here.

[MediumHigh]

Pushing Bran out of the window wasn't really his call.

Cersei freaking the fuck out
Jaime : Can we get back to sex
Cersei : He fucking saw us
Jaime : Yeah but I'm about to nut
Cersei : HE SAW US
Jaime : He's like 8
Cersei : !^@^!%#!%$&!@%$&#@!^
Jaime : Ok but after this I need to nut
Jaime walks up to bran... : no hard feelings k? *push*

[Setanta]

Except for kicking Bran out the window, Jaime seems a decent chap.  It looks like he is becoming a better person, thanks in no small part to big ole whatsherface. 

Not to mention killing off Jory and Ned's guards and running a spear through Ned's leg and impairing his ability to escape when things went pear shaped?

I think the TV series is a lot kinder to Jamie than the books are. Having said that, I like his character - when things have to be done, he does them. In fact, as someone who isn't a fan of Bran, I find that not killing him is his biggest failing.

[Threash]

All of those other things were perfectly justified. He was defending his brother, whom the Starks kidnapped for no damn reason.

[Setanta]

All of those other things were perfectly justified. He was defending his brother, whom the Starks kidnapped for no damn reason.

meh - the killing of the guards and Jory I couldn't justify. Getting pissed at Ned and maiming him for something his wife did before Ned could sort it out is a bit of a stretch but I'll go along with it.

Personally I like Jamie because he's the kingslayer, the one who had the guts to do what had to be done. But I still think he gets his kicks from hurting people emotionally (Brienne) and physically. It's the flaws that make him human. When I was reading the books, you could tell that Joffrey was his son, because the arrogance and brutality of Joffrey is there in Jamie, but more controlled and contained. Doesn't help that Cersei is far worse.

I have a weird list of characters that appeal to me:
Tyrion
The Hound
Arya
Jamie
Jorrah
Ned

Having said that, the deaths of The King in the North and Cat were non issues for me and

[Threash]

Really? if Arya was kidnapped and Ned had mowed down a few Lannister lackeys over it nobody would have batted an eye.  People only care because they knew and liked Jory, but imo that situation was perfectly played by Martin into making us root for the wrong side.  I don't even think it needs justification.

[Setanta]

But that didn't happen so we'll never know.

He didn't go all murderer when Robert Arryn's death was announced given the impression that Arryn was almost a father figure. Nor when the mad king cooked Rickard and Brandon Stark alive. In fact there's no impression that Ned would have done the same as Jamie and he would have had more personal reasons. It's why Jamie is more interesting than Ned, but he is in no way a saint even by GoT standards.

[Threash]

I didn't say he would have, i said if he had nobody would have held it against him.  We hold it against Jamie because at that point all we knew about him was that he threw Bran out a window and the Lannisters were clearly the bad guys and Jory was awesome, but his actions were perfectly justified and if he had done something similar in a much later book nobody would bat an eye over it either.

[Ceryse]

All of those other things were perfectly justified. He was defending his brother, whom the Starks kidnapped for no damn reason.

Eh? Now this is only from watching the show, so I have no idea how the books are different, but they (read: the idiot Catelyn) kidnapped him because they thought he was responsible for an assassination attempt on Bran. They were, of course, wrong, but given what they knew it was hardly "no damn reason". Personally, I would have found things far more interesting had Ned found out it was Jaime who had pushed Bran out the window and Cersei who had ordered the assassination (she did, right? I don't really remember how clearly that's spelled out) and why. I imagine Ned would have killed all sorts of people. Or tried to. Or been far more prepared for things. Of course, you couldn't have had Sean Bean play him in the show without him still getting killed. It seems to be a rule of video entertainment that Sean Bean = dead character.

[Rasix]

Personally, I would have found things far more interesting had Ned found out it was Jaime who had pushed Bran out the window and Cersei who had ordered the assassination (she did, right? I don't really remember how clearly that's spelled out) and why.

[Margalis]

I only read the first book. At the time I remember thinking that the Jaime / Cersei stuff was silly - they were presented as cartoonishly evil. They're so evil that they are brother and sister having sex - gross! It's like GRRM hung up a neon sign with an arrow pointing them that read "you're supposed to dislike these people." It's like a reverse Save the Cat introduction - instead of saving a cat they have sex and shove a kid out a window. A lot of the unlikable characters were set up in that fashion - central casting evil types.

I honestly don't get what the fuss about the series is about. I liked the first book well enough but it was very clear that the series was going to meander forever. I mean, IIRC the first chapter is a teaser about some evil ice people that never come back into play at any point in the rest of the book. There were a lot of ideas in there that didn't seem to be going anywhere - the pet wolves for example.

IMO GRRM is similar to Stephen King, in that they are really good at certain types of things, especially tantalizing setups and character interactions, but have trouble forming a coherent narrative that works from start to finish.

[Riggswolfe]

I only read the first book. At the time I remember thinking that the Jaime / Cersei stuff was silly - they were presented as cartoonishly evil. They're so evil that they are brother and sister having sex - gross! It's like GRRM hung up a neon sign with an arrow pointing them that read "you're supposed to dislike these people." It's like a reverse Save the Cat introduction - instead of saving a cat they have sex and shove a kid out a window. A lot of the unlikable characters were set up in that fashion - central casting evil types.

I honestly don't get what the fuss about the series is about. I liked the first book well enough but it was very clear that the series was going to meander forever. I mean, IIRC the first chapter is a teaser about some evil ice people that never come back into play at any point in the rest of the book. There were a lot of ideas in there that didn't seem to be going anywhere - the pet wolves for example.

IMO GRRM is similar to Stephen King, in that they are really good at certain types of things, especially tantalizing setups and character interactions, but have trouble forming a coherent narrative that works from start to finish.

My fear is that GRRM is not Stephen King but rather Robert Jordan. Any fan of fantasy should desperately fear that.

Also, the first book is really evil in a way. It sets you up to see very clear sides much like what you're used to in fantasy fiction but as the series progress you see things are not what they seemed. Tyrion is a pretty decent fellow. Jamie is a conflicted and tortured man and the thing he is most reviled for is the single most honorable thing he has ever done. In fact, Ned, who you're led to believe is a hero, is a sanctimonious prick when it comes to Jamie. Not only did Jamie save the entire city, he also did not take the throne for himself or his father. He handed it over. And Ned has looked down on him for it ever since. Cersie? Ok, yeah, Cersei is pretty bad and Joffrey is probably the series most clear-cut villain character.

Now, I don't know if he planned this from the start or if he is pulling this out of his ass as he goes. The first book almost feels like it comes from a totally seperate book series than the other books.

[Setanta]

You forgot the bit where the great king Robert Barathian is pretty damn bad too. Tywin Lannister comes across as a better person who may or may not have tried to save the Targaryan babies.

Barathian was a prick who was ready to kill an entire family just for revenge over a woman who didn't really love him. The crusade seems almost more for his ego than for freedom from the mad king. He owed the most to Jamie but instead treated him pretty shabbily.

I'm wondering if GRRM will give this an ironic twist and set Jon Snow up to be a Targaryan-Stark and not Ned's bastard after all.

Of course, he'll have to write that around the last book.

BTW - I like Jamie as a character and I really like how he's been adapted to the screen. Other than humping his sister mind you.

[Samwise]

I'm wondering if GRRM will give this an ironic twist and

Yeah, that's the theory I'm going with.  

[eldaec]

I'm wondering if GRRM will give this an ironic twist and

Yeah, that's the theory I'm going with.  

[Samwise]

Yeah, I can't see it being anyone else. 

[eldaec]

Just on the point about book and series 1 feeling so seperate.

I gather the original intent was a trilogy, Game was book 1, Clash, Storm, Feast, and Dance would be book 2, then what is coming in Winds and Dream would be book 3.

In practice I think the final series (if we ever see it) will have 4 distinct sections.

Act : The end of Roberts reign.
Act : The war of n Kings.
Act : The fucking about times we didn't need to see.
Act : Zombies vs Dragons smackdown apocalypse

[Threash]

The "fucking about stuff we didn't need to see" is more aptly named "the collapse of the seven kingdoms, five of which we don't really give a fuck about".

[Rendakor]

Also "and stuff that happens across the Narrow Sea that might one day be relevant in the seven kingdoms, maybe" which are the least interesting bits to me.

[HaemishM]

I'm almost done with Feast for Crows and it REALLY suffers from "the most interesting stuff happens off screen" -itis. Total mistake to cut that into 2 books. He needed someone to dial his ass back or something because easily half of that book was maneuvering and set up for really tiny happenings. The TV writers would do well to cut the ever living fuck out of this book.