Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[calapine]

If we can make wishes I'd hope little princess Daenerys gets her face pushed into the dirt. And that nothing (too) bad happens to Cersei. Unlike many here I find her the most relate- and likeable.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Cersei.  Probably my favorite character (and Lena Headey...yum) in the show.  But likeable and relatable?  Oh Gods, no.  Perhaps you meant the words opposite to those.

Yes, she get's described as villain, which I find a bit hard to understand seeing in what a world of psychopaths she resides. Is she that bad? Cersei has flaws, but those make her intriguing:

• She wants power for powers sake, and is quite cunning, but not as much as she thinks, and once she has it she actually pretty bad at handling it.
• She has a hedonistic, pleasure seeking trait, to the point of being irresponsible: Sleeping with her own brother, heavy drinking (the later one is more strongly emphasized in the books)
• Fitting to that: classic Cersei of getting shitfaced while Kings Landing is sieged. And sneering in contempt at the other ladies present. [Exactly what I would have done in that situation]
• She is 100% loyal to those she likes (Jamie and Joffrey). And the others? Well them fuck them all.
• She dislike the role society forced her in and rebels against that (a situation she shares with Arya). (Compare that to the boring cow Catelyn Stark)
• She is bitter and holds grudges, but they are well deserved. Her father treats as her a marriage pawn, twice. Jamie gets all the glory, and even Tyrion (who is clearly despised by Twyin) gets put ahead of her when to rule Kings Landing as Hand of the King)
• She can be friendly, smiling and seductive, but underneath is a big schemer and not wimpy in the slightest, but
• Sometimes her anger becomes stronger than the manipulator and she snaps and starts threatening people when it's really stupid to do so: Ned, Littlefinger, Margaery.

So off all the people that are not complete monsters (Joffrey, The Mountain, etc...) Cersei (and Shae and Tyrion, Westeros sweetest couple) are the most human, and as I said relatable. Twyin is admirable, but he is someone I'd want to marry, not identify with. Who else is there? Arya...a kid, Sansa...a dumb boring kid, Catelyn...ugh.


Uff, that got pretty long. I hope it brings my point across at least somewhat?

[HaemishM]

/* slowly backs away from Calapine */

[Threash]

There is a vast chasm between intriguing and "relatable and likeable". Also, she is none of those things.

[Paelos]

Arya and Sansa are horrible characters who I really dislike.

I'm rooting for the Ice Demons to ride down everyone and the Wildlings take over King's Landing.

Fin.

[calapine]

/* slowly backs away from Calapine */

Awww!   It's me Cala. I post kitten pics in the cute picture thread and I am always nice to everyone. You can trust me!  

Arya and Sansa are horrible characters who I really dislike.

I'm rooting for the Ice Demons to ride down everyone and the Wildlings take over King's Landing.

Fin.

Oh, don't quite agree. Arya is plucky! The "Mary Sue" aspect of her is laid on too thick, which lessens the character a bit.

Sansa is uninteresting in her current state. I'd so laugh if all the misfortunes she endures cause her to toughen up, come out of the left field and in the when the end dust settles be the only one left standing. Sansa the Terrible, sitting on the Iron Throne!  

[Rasix]

We have not forgotten the condom wall.

Is this a spoiler thread or not?  Sansa will either likely die a horrible death for thinking she's smarter than she really is, or she's going to come out of this looking better than any Stark.  She may have realized how to play the game. 

[Paelos]

My biggest dark horse is Sansa because she's so fucking boring.

I keep hoping Arya dies needlessly since so many people seem to think she's interesting and not a blatant ripoff of the orphan-becomes-assassin story we've heard a million times.

[Johny Cee]

My biggest dark horse is Sansa because she's so fucking boring.

I keep hoping Arya dies needlessly since so many people seem to think she's interesting and not a blatant ripoff of the orphan-becomes-assassin story we've heard a million times.

Martin's wife made him promise that Arya doesn't die.

[Threash]

We have not forgotten the condom wall.

Is this a spoiler thread or not?  Sansa will either likely die a horrible death for thinking she's smarter than she really is, or she's going to come out of this looking better than any Stark.  She may have realized how to play the game. 

We had a non spoiler thread but Martin killed it.

[Der Helm]

I am just hoping for Geoffrey to die.

His name is Joffrey, dammit!

Stupid mental autocorrect. And I even thought of looking up his name. I am sorry.

[Der Helm]

My biggest dark horse is Sansa because she's so fucking boring.

I keep hoping Arya dies needlessly since so many people seem to think she's interesting and not a blatant ripoff of the orphan-becomes-assassin story we've heard a million times.

Martin's wife made him promise that Arya doesn't die.

So she is semi-safe for as long as that marriage lasts ?

[Ironwood]

Hmmmmm, Sophie Turner.

[MediumHigh]

Funny how GRRM spends so much time killing off the good characters that he often forgets that his "main characters" are rapidly becoming more irritating to read about as their main character status becomes even more obvious.

[Paelos]

The only female characters I like in the books are Melisandra and Brienne of Tarth.

The only male character I like is Tyrion, but even that's running thin.

[HaemishM]

How could you not like Arya? Her time with the Hound was great. Sure, she's a bit Mary Sue but she's a better read than Cersei's "if I had a cock, I'd be running this bitch, why don't people who do everything I say succeed at anything, I want to fuck my brother!"

[Paelos]

Because Arya is the fantasy trope mistreated child who trains to kick ass.

[Pennilenko]

Because Arya is the fantasy trope mistreated child who trains to kick ass.

I can forgive that though because it is my favorite character theme.

[HaemishM]

Because Arya is the fantasy trope mistreated child who trains to kick ass.

But she's so awesome on the TV show. 

[eldaec]

They are all fantasy tropes, but there is nothing wrong with a well written trope.

[MediumHigh]

Arya just comes off as bratty. Really, really bratty. It doesn't help that she thinks she is the most awesome person in the room at all times.

[Pennilenko]

Arya just comes off as bratty. Really, really bratty. It doesn't help that she thinks she is the most awesome person in the room at all times.

I really don't see it that way at all. How old is she supposed to be, like 10 or something? Seems pretty accurate for a 10 year old.

[MediumHigh]

Still annoying. I'd rather hear about a 10 year old doing shit 10 year olds don't do than actually be inside a 10 year olds mind while their doing it. Same with Bran. God so bland. No amount of lore building and supernatural shit makes his crippled ass interesting.

[Paelos]

They are all fantasy tropes, but there is nothing wrong with a well written trope.

I don't think she's well-written. She's intentionally created for the purpose of people liking her, the plucky child who suffers tragic family problems, and ends up seeking revenge. She's instantly going to be the character people reading the story would identify with, because they are most likely nerds who have suffered under the hands of people stronger.

She has no depth. She's a revenge machine in the form of a child. What I dislike about the character the most isn't that she's a trope, it's that it's obvious and fans keep listing her as one of their favorites. It says a lot about the person that would find Arya Stark tolerable. She's a murdering pyschopath.

[Samwise]

It says a lot about the person that would find Arya Stark tolerable. She's a murdering pyschopath.

[HaemishM]

She's a 10 year old kid that saw her father beheaded for trying to do the right thing, was yanked around an entire country at war watching everybody around her die in HORRIBLE ways and whose best friend turned out to be a shape shifting assassin. How fucking stable would you be?

[Der Helm]

While I was pretty sure what was going to happen when she approached those guys at the campfire in the last episode, her killing the guy (and how) was still a pretty big  moment for me.

[Paelos]

She's a 10 year old kid that saw her father beheaded for trying to do the right thing, was yanked around an entire country at war watching everybody around her die in HORRIBLE ways and whose best friend turned out to be a shape shifting assassin. How fucking stable would you be?

Not. That's the issue. GRRM controls all that shit and he put her in the middle of it so she would be rootable for doing the exact same shit everyone else is doing. So she gets a pass even though she's basically a shallow murder-foil at this juncture.

EDIT: The difference between her and Cersei in my mind is razor thin when it comes to motivations of vengeance.

[HaemishM]

Motivations of vengeance? Sure. Affect of her bloodlust - Cersei has her beat hands down simply because she controls the levers of power. Arya's is a justifiable murder spree. Cersei's is just a petty, vindictive grasping for power to prove that she's every bit the "man" her father was.

[Paelos]

Motivations of vengeance? Sure. Affect of her bloodlust - Cersei has her beat hands down simply because she controls the levers of power. Arya's is a justifiable murder spree. Cersei's is just a petty, vindictive grasping for power to prove that she's every bit the "man" her father was.

It's hardly petty. Cersei is just what would have happened to Arya if she grew up, less the incest. Cersei was married off like cattle, treated like crap by her philandering husband, and had him killed. Arya has the exact same fears that she would have been married off as a lady to some dick.

[Phildo]

less the incest

Don't be so sure, some of her brothers are hotties as well!

[calapine]

Oh god! Such a sanctimonious, jugmentmental bunch! I'd want to see you guys living in the Game of Throne universe. Probably would get stabbed in a week for being obnoxious 

[Phildo]

Sam Tarley seems to be doing just fine, actually.

[MrHat]

I fully expect Arya to get pregnant and have to kill herself and unborn for some mass shadow beast voodoo.

[Khaldun]

She's a 10 year old kid that saw her father beheaded for trying to do the right thing, was yanked around an entire country at war watching everybody around her die in HORRIBLE ways and whose best friend turned out to be a shape shifting assassin. How fucking stable would you be?

Not. That's the issue. GRRM controls all that shit and he put her in the middle of it so she would be rootable for doing the exact same shit everyone else is doing. So she gets a pass even though she's basically a shallow murder-foil at this juncture.

EDIT: The difference between her and Cersei in my mind is razor thin when it comes to motivations of vengeance.

This is like saying, "I just don't understand why L. Frank Baum's Oz books don't have more gritty Machiavellian political maneuvering between Ozma and Glinda, Baum controls all that shit and he just keeps making them be friends and stuff."

It basically means you don't really understand story-telling and fiction. Or the kind of story and setting Martin's working with. You're saying, "I'd like the preteen daughter of a man who just lost his head in a dynastic political struggle to not be in the middle of bad shit so that she can develop into a more rounded character".  And this is where? or what? in the setting and narrative that Martin is working with? If you want realistic outcomes, she'd either have been caught and stuck in the same hostage situation as Sansa; or killed and raped somewhere on the road. Happy with those? If you want "Oh, please not the angry little revenge-seeking determined child, not a female Bruce Wayne", ok, then? She finds a job working in a pub somewhere that is miraculously one of the few places that doesn't get burnt or ransacked by roving armies? She gets adopted by some nice visiting Braavosi merchant and taken out of the story completely? She has lots of the classic emotional ambiguity and experiential complexity that 12-year olds are known for?

[Paelos]

I understand story-telling. I also understand manipulating your audience. GRRM does the latter on numerous levels, but Arya's character stands out to me because people fall for it.

EDIT: To go even further with it, I argue some of the internal consistency of his story telling. Somebody should have ended up raped and dead on the road. Why not her? She's saved numerous times by various Deus Ex Machina forces while other characters are thrown to the wolves, mostly because he's a sadist who likes to set his readers up.