Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Fordel]

So just like real life!

[Cyrrex]

Oh, you guys can fuck right off too. You knew what I was in for and not one of you chose to warn me. I don't know if I can continue after watching Ned lose his head. I mean for fucks sake does every good guy get fucked over in this series?

Edit..Finishing last episode of season one now. Why do I have no power to stop watching? I'm not even being dramatic, this show is truly infuriating. I haven't felt this upset about a show since that dude had Sparticus's wife killed in Sparticus.

The irony about all this hand wringing (from everyone, not just you) is that it is exactly BECAUSE of all this shit that people can't stop watching the show.  I am sure that they will endlessly protest that this isn't the case, that they are THIS CLOSE to not watching the show any more because of all the killing off of their favorites characters, but that is 27 kinds of bullshit.

And your particular rage about Ned losing his head, that is just precious    You just got your GoT cherry popped.  You'll soon forget about good ole Ned. 

[Setanta]

Did the fact that it was Sean Bean playing Ned NOT tip you off? 

[Der Helm]

I would not go as far as saying every character who dies deserved it (I still have not read the books). But the writers for this show do a really good job at putting in scenes were you think "Wow, that was badass" which later turn out to be the reason why they die.


edit: fixed grammar

[Merusk]

Power Corrupts and Heroism only gets you killed.

These are the themes of Game of Thrones.

[Threash]

Also people put in dangerous situations who constantly make stupid choices tend to die even if they are the good guys.  People complain that Martin goes out of his way to kill his characters, in reality we are just used to writers going out of their way to save characters who should die.

[MediumHigh]

That used to be the main complaint. Until like book 5 where even that theme gets discarded for... well you'll see.

[MahrinSkel]

Oh, you guys can fuck right off too. You knew what I was in for and not one of you chose to warn me. I don't know if I can continue after watching Ned lose his head. I mean for fucks sake does every good guy get fucked over in this series?

Edit..Finishing last episode of season one now. Why do I have no power to stop watching? I'm not even being dramatic, this show is truly infuriating. I haven't felt this upset about a show since that dude had Sparticus's wife killed in Sparticus.

I did warn you, and trust me, it gets worse.  GRRM is a literary sadist, and the show does a good job of maintaining that punch-in-the-gut delivery.

--Dave

[Pennilenko]

Yeah, but it's not just that they cut off Ned's head, it's that an episode later they made his daughter stare at his head on a pike as an example and then an episode after they stabbed a baby to drive home the brutality. All, I need to be okay with the universe is for Geoffrey to get what's coming to him.

I am not coming back to this thread until I catch up because I almost cannot resist the urge to dig through spoilers.

[Samwise]

Also people put in dangerous situations who constantly make stupid choices tend to die even if they are the good guys.  People complain that Martin goes out of his way to kill his characters, in reality we are just used to writers going out of their way to save characters who should die.

Yeah, I very much agree with this.  It becomes especially apparent on a re-read (or re-watch) that people make a lot of very bad decisions that lead up to their demise -- you just don't notice it at the time because you're used to heroes having their poor choices turn out okay for dramatic convenience.

Ned is a good guy but almost every single choice he makes suffers from the problem of trying to make too many people happy.  He knew it was a bad idea to go to King's Landing, but he couldn't say no to his nagging wife.  He knew the Lannisters were snakes, but he thought if he took the high road they'd be grateful and leave quietly so he wouldn't have to kill them.  He STILL knew the Lannisters were snakes and thought they'd be merciful to him if he gave a fake confession.

[Ironwood]

All the Starks are retards.

[Nevermore]

Eh, one of them hasn't been as bad as the rest.

[Rendakor]

Who, the 5 year old?

[Samwise]

I think Bran's genuinely the smartest one of the whole family.  He does make decisions that turn out to be incorrect with benefit of hindsight (and tragic consequences), like climbing the tower, and sending the army away, but I think in those cases the consequences were genuinely unforeseeable -- nobody could have called that there would be psycho Lannisters in that tower, or that the ironborn were going to do a suicide run at Winterfell (which is basically what it was even if Theon didn't know it).

Arya and Sansa do dumb stuff but it's not on the level of Ned, Cat, Robb, or Jon, all of whom do completely boneheaded things repeatedly despite knowing better.

[Ironwood]

Maybe, but I'm not sure that shoots down my point.

So the smartest of them was still retarded in the context of the text ?

Ok.

 

(No, seriously, I don't care, don't engage the Ironwood Troll.)

[Speedy Cerviche]

Well Sansa is supposed to be 13 and Bran 8, but I think GRRM screwed up their ages or something cuz it doesn't make much sense for them to be that young but thinking and talking like adults even in the context of a harsh medieval world where people grow up a lot faster. The TV show corrects this somewhat by casting people who clearly look older than their ages stated in the book and then kind of ignores what he wrote and has them act like older children & teens would.

[Khaldun]

I think folks simplify Ned so that they can have a simple lesson out of a fairly unsimplified narrative.

For example, he's called upon to be the Hand. Everyone now says, "Oh, don't be the Hand, stay in Winterfell." In a kingdom like Westeros, with its recent past, you know what message that says to your former/current friend the King and the Lannisters who more or less have him in the palm of their hands? "I'm getting ready to rebel against you next spring." Which might mean: "Ok, then we march against you right now or in some other way get ready to fuck you over before you do the same to us." Remember, nobody knows that this is going to be a really bad winter or that ice zombies are coming south or that Daenerys is about to wake dragons or any of that shit.

He comes south. Everybody says, "Be the Hand! Make deals! Be cunning! Be sneaky! Don't value honor!" Look, first off, the guy does not have his own spy network in King's Landing. He just doesn't. It doesn't matter if you're a treacherous douchebag or an honorable good guy, you can't just get your own spies by taking out an ad in the town crier's daily yells. Plus, if your own guys are insanely loyal to you and people in general trust you, that's a political asset in most circumstances, and Ned knows enough to work that advantage for what it's worth. It's just not worth enough in this situation--but it can be even in a place like Westeros.

I think where you can say Ned makes genuine mistakes is when he doesn't keep heading home after fighting with Jamie and breaking with Robert. By that time, he knows enough to know that the political game is rigged against him, the stakes are the highest, and that he doesn't have the tools he needs. Where he is unambiguously stupid is confronting Cersei. But to some extent the first book/season is the story of his nearly inevitable doom in a situation where being cunning would save him only because he would have been 'working the situation' for the last ten years rather than just seeing to his own power base in the north.

[HaemishM]

Ned's lesson was as much about the value of honor amongst a kingdom full of honorless, ass-fucking shits.

[Nevermore]

Now be fair.  The only actual buggery I recall was between two rather likeable fellows.   

Now if you had said sibling-fucking shits...

[MediumHigh]

Ned's mistake is not taking his chances and killing Cersei. The book would have turned out much different if he simply said "welp going to murder Cersei and all her bastard born." Or better side with Renly. Hot damn things would have been different if he merely sided with the one guy capable of mobilizing the largest army in Westeroes.

[Tebonas]

Comparing Ned to Rob really shows the difference though. Ned was just Lawful Stupid, showing us how behaving like a Paladin can screw you over when nobody else gives a shit about honor. Plus, he knew he was out of his Element and doomed, but he couldn't help himself. Rob on the other hand was a fucking idiot on numerous occasions without external inputs or a rigid system of values that forced him to behave that way.

[Pennilenko]

Well, I am all caught up. I feel kind of ambivalent about the show. None of the characters do what I want them to do, and none of the things happen that I want to happen, yet I could not stop watching it. I know I hate GRRM for sadistically torturing readers and viewers.  My only hope is that Daenerys burns the whole world to the ground, and or Arya Stark grows up and becomes an vicious assassin handing out punishment. If I go by the show so far though none of that glorious stuff will happen.

I will say it again fuck this show.

[Der Helm]

Was it in this thread were people were happy that Rob finally acted like a king when he dealt with the mistakes of (and yelled at) his uncle ?

[proudft]

I will say it again fuck this show.

Jolly Gregor 3.0 just wants to give you a hug.

[Der Helm]

I am just hoping for Geoffrey to die. But if the Starks keep dieing, I migh not be able to keep watching. I was pretty close to throwing something at my screen when John got almost killed. Twice.

[Tale]

Well Sansa is supposed to be 13 and Bran 8, but I think GRRM screwed up their ages or something cuz it doesn't make much sense for them to be that young but thinking and talking like adults even in the context of a harsh medieval world where people grow up a lot faster. The TV show corrects this somewhat by casting people who clearly look older than their ages stated in the book and then kind of ignores what he wrote and has them act like older children & teens would.

I sometimes wonder whether GRRM has ever met any kids.

[Threash]

That new Gregor is horrible.

[WayAbvPar]

Well Sansa is supposed to be 13 and Bran 8, but I think GRRM screwed up their ages or something cuz it doesn't make much sense for them to be that young but thinking and talking like adults even in the context of a harsh medieval world where people grow up a lot faster. The TV show corrects this somewhat by casting people who clearly look older than their ages stated in the book and then kind of ignores what he wrote and has them act like older children & teens would.

I sometimes wonder whether GRRM has ever met any kids.

Not any that escaped unmolested.

[calapine]

I am just hoping for Geoffrey to die. But if the Starks keep dieing, I migh not be able to keep watching. I was pretty close to throwing something at my screen when John got almost killed. Twice.

If we can make wishes I'd hope little princess Daenerys gets her face pushed into the dirt. And that nothing (too) bad happens to Cersei. Unlike many here I find her the most relate- and likeable.

[eldaec]

In the context of the 16th century, the ages as written are fine. But for the tv show everyone who didn't die already is still too damn young.

[MediumHigh]

Cersei for 5 books and it never happens. Dany however.... her obvious main character status makes her dumb and dumber decisions later feel like a slap in the face compared to all the people who died doing far less retarded shit or was more capable of handling her special set of problems.

[Cyrrex]

I am just hoping for Geoffrey to die. But if the Starks keep dieing, I migh not be able to keep watching. I was pretty close to throwing something at my screen when John got almost killed. Twice.

If we can make wishes I'd hope little princess Daenerys gets her face pushed into the dirt. And that nothing (too) bad happens to Cersei. Unlike many here I find her the most relate- and likeable.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Cersei.  Probably my favorite character (and Lena Headey...yum) in the show.  But likeable and relatable?  Oh Gods, no.  Perhaps you meant the words opposite to those.

[Khaldun]

Cersei for 5 books and it never happens. Dany however.... her obvious main character status makes her dumb and dumber decisions later feel like a slap in the face compared to all the people who died doing far less retarded shit or was more capable of handling her special set of problems.

Martin (and his TV partners) are not writing a story about how life will eventually deal out justice, or how dumb decisions lead to bad consequences. He's trying to transplant the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years' War into a fantasy setting. In those wars, which we know through a combination of tall tales and fairly straightforward historical documents, dumb and brutal actions sometimes made you a winner, sometimes led to consequences, and sometimes were just dumb and brutal with no particular follow-through. I don't think you should count on narrative closure or the expected thing happening in any character's arc.

[Phildo]

I am just hoping for Geoffrey to die.

His name is Joffrey, dammit!

[Threash]

Cersei for 5 books and it never happens. Dany however.... her obvious main character status makes her dumb and dumber decisions later feel like a slap in the face compared to all the people who died doing far less retarded shit or was more capable of handling her special set of problems.

Martin (and his TV partners) are not writing a story about how life will eventually deal out justice, or how dumb decisions lead to bad consequences. He's trying to transplant the War of the Roses and the Hundred Years' War into a fantasy setting. In those wars, which we know through a combination of tall tales and fairly straightforward historical documents, dumb and brutal actions sometimes made you a winner, sometimes led to consequences, and sometimes were just dumb and brutal with no particular follow-through. I don't think you should count on narrative closure or the expected thing happening in any character's arc.

Meh, Martin is writing a story about dragons vs zombies.  Everything else is just filler, he just tricks you into thinking other stuff is the main plot.