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Author Topic: Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]  (Read 551038 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #6650 on: May 27, 2019, 06:19:19 PM

Redemption arcs are generally Fantasy trope nonsense. People don't go through their lives being evil and then come to the revelation that they've been a bit of a cunt this whole time and should probably change.

That's kind of the problem though... Jamie wasn't evil. That's one of things that I found very intriguing about the character and I think it was actually one of the triumphs of Martin's writings. We spent most of a book finding out about this dashing knight who was clearly a bastard (since the first two things we find out about are 1) he killed the king he was supposed to protect and 2) he pushes a kid out of a window to protect his incestuous relations with his evil sister). He seems proud to be a bastard but we find out he's not just an evil cunt - the scene where he discusses the reason he's killed his king was to save thousands of innocents. And then his own internal struggles about saving Brienne from rape and bear rape that caused him to lose his swordfighting skills, which were the only things that ever made him proud of himself. Over the course of the books and the shows, he went from being the embodiment of a fantasy trope to a multidimensional character.

And then all of a sudden he wasn't. And the only reason the showrunners could give us was "I pushed a kid out of a window, I'm just as bad as her." It rang hollow, just as Dany's flipped switch to genocide. Perhaps had we had more chance for some internal struggle to play out, it might not have felt like such a regression but again, that's where most of this season has fallen apart.

Threash
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Reply #6651 on: May 27, 2019, 06:31:07 PM

Throwing a kid out a window = evil. There's no redemption arc short of him being the one who dies defending Bran instead of Theon that would redeem that. That's how fucking evil that is.

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HaemishM
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Reply #6652 on: May 27, 2019, 06:41:20 PM

My point is it's a terrible fantasy trope that all characters are either all good or all evil - good characters are humans who sometimes do some evil fucking things, often for the shittiest of reasons. And I think part of Jamie's redemption arc was that he recognized how evil he was and even tried to apologize for it, as if he was truly remorseful and not just because he was caught.

Pure evil don't apologize.

Rendakor
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Reply #6653 on: May 27, 2019, 06:48:20 PM

Throwing a kid out a window = evil. There's no redemption arc short of him being the one who dies defending Bran instead of Theon that would redeem that. That's how fucking evil that is.
It's true, but when the kid forgives you to your face because that throw eventually made him become the All Seeing Godking it's not irredeemable evil. A more satisfying closure for Jaime would have been for him to take the black; attempted murder isn't really worse than murdering your aunt-girlfriend-queen.

I didn't say Dany's madness was a heel turn or out of the blue. The DEPTH of her mad queen burninating the women and children felt so sudden because it WAS so sudden. There was just no time for buildup and I get that the writers tried. However, she went from "free the slaves!" to "fuck it, kill them all" and the only real motivators we got from the show was her gradual isolation from the nobility of Westeros because they clearly favored Jon over her as a ruler. Yes, the deaths of Missandei and Jorah would have impacted her but without the time to actually see that happen, it made the change feel more like a flipped switch than a gradual descent into madness. It felt very Anakin turns to the Dark Side because neither of them gave that part of the character arc time to breathe.
My biggest problem with Dany was solely the bells moment. If she had just decided she was burning King's Landing down once they had killed Missandei, that makes perfect sense. Lock Tyrion up or tell him to go to hell, and make it clear that there will be no surrender. Instead, it felt like the showrunners wanted an "OH SHIT!" moment and had her just flip post-surrender for shock value; it was completely immersion ruining because there had been no trigger. Missandei's death makes sense; Rhaegal dying mid-battle (or better, post surrender) would also have sold it, or even a single arrow at Drogon from a not-quite-surrendered-yet Lannister soldier. Anything.

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Threash
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Reply #6654 on: May 27, 2019, 07:01:03 PM

Bran forgave him either because he wasn't really Bran anymore or because he knew Jamie alive would lead to Tyrion betraying Dany and helping him get closer to the throne.

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Velorath
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Reply #6655 on: May 27, 2019, 07:53:49 PM

Throwing a kid out a window = evil. There's no redemption arc short of him being the one who dies defending Bran instead of Theon that would redeem that. That's how fucking evil that is.
It's true, but when the kid forgives you to your face because that throw eventually made him become the All Seeing Godking it's not irredeemable evil. A more satisfying closure for Jaime would have been for him to take the black; attempted murder isn't really worse than murdering your aunt-girlfriend-queen.

Are we really going to try to get into shades of grey for pushing kids out windows? He wasn’t trying to kill baby Hitler or something. He was saving himself and his sister from the murdering that would happen if the King found out about the incest, and the kids not actually being his.

That some good might have inadvertently come out of it doesn’t in any way make Jaime a better person. That’s not how morality works. If I kick someone in the nuts for no reason and while they’re on the ground in pain they spot a $20 under the couch that doesn’t make me less of a dick.
Velorath
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Reply #6656 on: May 27, 2019, 07:59:13 PM

My point is it's a terrible fantasy trope that all characters are either all good or all evil - good characters are humans who sometimes do some evil fucking things, often for the shittiest of reasons.

I think good character who did terrible things in his past but now feels awful about them has become a worse trope than one dimensional characters. It can work in cases like Iron Man where he wasn’t trying to do evil, but things he created were used for evil. “He pushed a kid out a window but now he’s better” is not one of those cases.
HaemishM
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Reply #6657 on: May 27, 2019, 09:04:13 PM

Not "he's better" more like "he's trying." Also, he's not a "good" character who did terrible things in his past anymore than he's an evil character who does good things. I think prior to running back to Cersei, he was just a more realized, deeper character than just about anyone in the series. He certainly had more depth than Jon Snow or Dany or late-stage retardation Tyrion or Varys or even Cersei, or a whole host of other prominent characters.

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Reply #6658 on: May 27, 2019, 09:10:17 PM

Are we really going to try to get into shades of grey for pushing kids out windows? He wasn’t trying to kill baby Hitler or something. He was saving himself and his sister from the murdering that would happen if the King found out about the incest, and the kids not actually being his.

That some good might have inadvertently come out of it doesn’t in any way make Jaime a better person. That’s not how morality works. If I kick someone in the nuts for no reason and while they’re on the ground in pain they spot a $20 under the couch that doesn’t make me less of a dick.
Sure, skip over the word "forgives" as if it's unimportant. Ohhhhh, I see.

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Velorath
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Reply #6659 on: May 27, 2019, 09:17:58 PM

Are we really going to try to get into shades of grey for pushing kids out windows? He wasn’t trying to kill baby Hitler or something. He was saving himself and his sister from the murdering that would happen if the King found out about the incest, and the kids not actually being his.

That some good might have inadvertently come out of it doesn’t in any way make Jaime a better person. That’s not how morality works. If I kick someone in the nuts for no reason and while they’re on the ground in pain they spot a $20 under the couch that doesn’t make me less of a dick.
Sure, skip over the word "forgives" as if it's unimportant. Ohhhhh, I see.

It absolutely is unimportant. It doesn’t retroactively change the immorality of the act.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #6660 on: May 27, 2019, 10:41:35 PM

Not "he's better" more like "he's trying." Also, he's not a "good" character who did terrible things in his past anymore than he's an evil character who does good things. I think prior to running back to Cersei, he was just a more realized, deeper character than just about anyone in the series. He certainly had more depth than Jon Snow or Dany or late-stage retardation Tyrion or Varys or even Cersei, or a whole host of other prominent characters.

Him going back to Cersie doesn't invalidate any of that. He made a choice. You might not like it but it doesn't suddenly make him a one-dimensional character. I'd argue it shows just how complex of a character he was.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Setanta
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Reply #6661 on: May 28, 2019, 03:08:54 AM

Throwing a kid out a window = evil. There's no redemption arc short of him being the one who dies defending Bran instead of Theon that would redeem that. That's how fucking evil that is.

You know, there are some kids that need to be thrown out of a window I swear  awesome, for real

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Cyrrex
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Reply #6662 on: May 28, 2019, 03:29:34 AM

Not "he's better" more like "he's trying." Also, he's not a "good" character who did terrible things in his past anymore than he's an evil character who does good things. I think prior to running back to Cersei, he was just a more realized, deeper character than just about anyone in the series. He certainly had more depth than Jon Snow or Dany or late-stage retardation Tyrion or Varys or even Cersei, or a whole host of other prominent characters.

Him going back to Cersie doesn't invalidate any of that. He made a choice. You might not like it but it doesn't suddenly make him a one-dimensional character. I'd argue it shows just how complex of a character he was.

I agree.  Problem was more the ham-fisted pacing.  The last 3 or 4 episodes probably should have been shown playing out over at least one year, but instead it looks like Jaime goes to Winterfell, defends Winterfell the next day, sleeps with Brienne the day after that, packs his bags and heads to King's landing the following day, and gets crushed under a pile of rubble trying to rescue his sister on Day 4.  That is what we see on screen, and even if we are smart enough to know that time has passed, our brains refuse to look at it that way.  Khaldun had a post a few pages ago showing how they could have easily addressed some of these complaints.  Showing the correct passage of time, it turns out, is really fucking important.  We disconnect from what we are seeing when they don't manage it properly.  There are dozens of examples of this same shit in this series.  It was questionable in the early seasons, downright terrible in the last few.

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Reply #6663 on: May 28, 2019, 06:23:15 AM

Isn't that ending what you tv only fans always wanted? Its not rushed! There was plenty of "foreshadowing"

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Draegan
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Reply #6664 on: May 28, 2019, 02:59:18 PM


That some good might have inadvertently come out of it doesn’t in any way make Jaime a better person. That’s not how morality works. If I kick someone in the nuts for no reason and while they’re on the ground in pain they spot a $20 under the couch that doesn’t make me less of a dick.

I'd like to say that this is an excellent quote.
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Reply #6665 on: May 28, 2019, 07:15:18 PM

Kit Harington (Jon Snow, now married IRL to Ygritte) has been in rehab for stress and alcohol since May 19.

Quote
A friend told Page Six of Harington, “The end of 'GoT' really hit Kit hard …

“He realized ‘this is it — this is the end’, it was something they had all worked so hard on for so many years. He had a moment of, what next?

“He’s in the clinic predominantly for stress and exhaustion and also alcohol.

“His wife Rose is being extremely supportive. Everyone close to him really wanted him to get some rest. Right now, he just needs peace and quiet.”

A rep for the actor told us, “Kit has decided to utilize this break in his schedule as an opportunity to spend some time at a wellness retreat to work on some personal issues.”
Threash
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Reply #6666 on: May 28, 2019, 07:23:35 PM

That sucks, i hope it helps him.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #6667 on: May 28, 2019, 09:47:27 PM

I'm not surprised. He seemed very emotionally invested in his character. For these younger actors, this show has been a big part of their early lives. I'm surprised none of the other Stark kids are in therapy to be honest.

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Trippy
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Reply #6668 on: May 28, 2019, 10:23:58 PM

Sophie Turner has talked about her mental health issues.
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Reply #6669 on: May 28, 2019, 10:31:36 PM

They pretty much all have in some fashion.

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jgsugden
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Reply #6670 on: May 29, 2019, 09:04:38 AM

Regarding Jaime: Evil and Good are not exclusive.  Have you never met a person that has done good for the right reasons, but also done wrong for selfish reasons?

Jaime tried to kill Bran to protect his sister and himself. He also murdered his King to save tens of thousands of lives.  He also lept into a bear pit to save someone he respected. He also charged a dragon suicidally because there was a small chance he could end a war in one stroke. He wasn't a simple fascade of a character... he had depth. Like the rest of the last season, his story was not executed well at the end, but his actions all were true to his character.

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calapine
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Reply #6671 on: May 30, 2019, 01:59:31 PM

Agree with that. I understand why some people think it was a turnaround for him, but this one was of the few things that can actually be argued for.

I know I am not saying anything. Just agreeing with jgsugden so he doesn't feel alone. :p

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eldaec
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Reply #6672 on: May 31, 2019, 04:39:17 AM

"A good act does not wash out the bad nor a bad act the good, each should have its own reward"

Nobody gets redeemed in asoiaf, nobody gets entirely damned in the first place. They do good things and bad things, the things have consequences.

I don't understand the compliants about Jamie's ending undermining his arc either.

After doing the right thing to protect the realm, he went back to the person he loves, with little expectation of surviving. Not living happily ever after with Brienne does not make him a baddie.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 04:41:26 AM by eldaec »

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jgsugden
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Reply #6673 on: May 31, 2019, 01:02:07 PM

A large number of the complaints boild down to us not getting American style nicely wrapped up binary endings for these characters.  It is not all "Happily ever after" or "Ultimate sacrifice redeems", but a lot of "they died as they lived" or "and they suffer for doing the right thing". 

My expectation is that I will be much happier with the book endings if he manages to complete them.  The execution of the final season(s) was disappointing, but the core of the story doesn't seem out of place.

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calapine
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Reply #6674 on: May 31, 2019, 02:02:33 PM

Cersei as Billie Elish Song: https://youtu.be/jZGdpyT93us

This is seriously good. Listen!

No, like, seriously. Damn. Walking through town humming to kill the silver haired bitch first!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 02:08:43 PM by calapine »

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HaemishM
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Reply #6675 on: May 31, 2019, 02:22:07 PM

A large number of the complaints boild down to us not getting American style nicely wrapped up binary endings for these characters. 

You are wrong.

Threash
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Reply #6676 on: May 31, 2019, 02:52:15 PM

A large number of the complaints boild down to us not getting American style nicely wrapped up binary endings for these characters. 

Bullshit. I'm sure there is a great story about Dany losing the people closest to her and slowly becoming more paranoid and suspicious about those around her that ends with her burning down Kings Landing, we just didn't get that story. We got maybe two scenes over three episodes of that story. We got a bunch of cool looking scenes and an a pre determined ending with almost no context.

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Reply #6677 on: May 31, 2019, 03:27:01 PM

A large number of the complaints boild down to us not getting American style nicely wrapped up binary endings for these characters.  It is not all "Happily ever after" or "Ultimate sacrifice redeems", but a lot of "they died as they lived" or "and they suffer for doing the right thing".  

My expectation is that I will be much happier with the book endings if he manages to complete them.  The execution of the final season(s) was disappointing, but the core of the story doesn't seem out of place.

TV Only Fans:
Sure the story telling relies on flimsy out of character decision making, straight up stupid decision making, and lazy hamfisted conclusions...
BUT at least it wasn't what you expected.

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Setanta
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Reply #6678 on: May 31, 2019, 06:59:33 PM

It's not about happily ever after, it's about hamfisted, lazy writing with no plot development or real resolution. It's more of a "fuck you, we don't care anymore" to the audience.

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Samwise
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Reply #6679 on: May 31, 2019, 08:15:55 PM

BUT at least it wasn't what you expected.


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jgsugden
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Reply #6680 on: June 02, 2019, 06:57:41 PM

Not.  Even.  Worth.  It.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #6681 on: June 19, 2019, 01:21:06 AM

Filming for prequels underway, which is fine I guess.  Naomi Watts involved.  Fine.

A sequel with Arya officially ruled out.  Which we already knew, but I cannot help but laugh at the exec who addressed it:

Quote
"Nope, nope, nope. No," he told the news outlet.  "I don't want to take characters from this world that they did beautifully and put them off into another world with someone else creating it. I want to let it be the artistic piece they've got," Bloys said.

Good that you have your artistic integrity, bro.  Never mind that literally everyone who watched your series would rather have, and be far more likely to pay for, an Arya sequel.

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eldaec
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Reply #6682 on: June 19, 2019, 03:45:34 AM

If was CBS driving their shitty subscription service then maybe. But it is HBO, and long or even medium term, a bad Arya spin off would hurt HBO's brand more than it would help.

A bit of distance from GoT means they get a bump in interest but not absurd expectations.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #6683 on: June 19, 2019, 03:58:06 AM

Well, if your whole schtick is "which of these bad spinoffs will hurt us the least", then sure.  But an Arya spinoff has more chance of pleasing fans then probably whatever they are coming up with.

I don't know enough about HBO's service, however, so I don't know how risk-averse they are or should be.  Seems to me that HBO has a pretty limited library, which means they need hits hits hits.

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eldaec
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Reply #6684 on: June 19, 2019, 04:02:25 AM

They have a limited library because they have a specific brand of 'limited library of things that are not shit'.

If they start churning out shit, their brand becomes just 'limited library' and they are fucked.

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"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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