Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Khaldun]

If there are any others, they're still in the North. Which seems like an unhealthy place to be right now, giant or otherwise.

[Tebonas]

You make it sounds like a pair tits wasn't a vast improvement in almost every situation  

Seriously, they really played up the sisterhood angle with Dany and Yara. This, along with Sansas power play this episode, the Dorne Situation, the fact that the Queen of Thornes is the de-facto ruler of the Reach, and the possible roasting of most of her male relatives by Cersei next week, makes it probable that every faction south of the wall is controlled by a woman after this season.

So the tits might be the point here  

And yes. Snow is undoubtedly his fathers son  That "Die by honor" Stark gene is as strong in him as it was in Ned and Robb. He couldn't do anything but try to save his brother. Its this hero syndrome which would make the Starks the immortal heroes in every other Fantasy world that makes them the punching bags of this one.

[calapine]

You make it sounds like a pair tits wasn't a vast improvement in almost every situation  

Seriously, they really played up the sisterhood angle with Dany and Yara. This, along with Sansas power play this episode, the Dorne Situation, the fact that the Queen of Thornes is the de-facto ruler of the Reach, and the possible roasting of most of her male relatives by Cersei next week, makes it probable that every faction south of the wall is controlled by a woman after this season.

Yes, I caught myself asking during the show "What is Bob going to say about this??"  


Spoilers, please! 

[Tebonas]

Oops, ok. You too, though. 

[IainC]

[eldaec]

Burning Kings Landing to the ground really seems like it should take more than the 3 minutes that would be available next week.

And would make an episode that also features the white raven incoherent.

And what kind of writer misses the opportunity to have Jamie in town?  Jamie doing his shit the last time Kings Landing nearly burnt down is being referenced about once every 20 minutes right now.

And what kind of writer misses the opportunity to have Sandor in town? Chekov's burn and Chekov's brother cannot possibly pass up an opportunity like this.

I really don't see it happening next week.

[eldaec]

White walker giants!

[Khaldun]

The slow movement of women into power in Westeros is happening in the books, too, so in that respect they're following Martin. It's as much a result of multiple male heads of households dying, largely due to their own stupidity and greed, as it is initiative or agency by the female characters. But it may let Martin introduce some new way to organize what little is left of Westerosi society when the dust settles.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Book spoiler:

We're past that point in the show though so I don't think it matters. The books had never gotten to a point where Tommen was a true believer under the influence of the Sparrow. Cersei's power in both formats was derived from her influence over Tommen, which seems to be gone now with the trial rules modified against her, by Tommen and the Sparrow. Cersei is 100% isolated and cornered, killing some small council members won't change that. Only blowing up the High Sept with the Sparrow and Tommen in it would really.

[Teleku]

We were also years past the point River Run was sieged also, but they had Black Fish magically show up and take it again, just so they could do the Jaime/Siege arc as well.   

The show may change the reasons why he does it a bit, but I'm still pretty certain he's going to murder them next episode.  But I've certainly been way wrong about this show before!

[Khaldun]

I don't think she cares about power any more. I think she cares about revenge. The small folk mocked her during her walk, well, they've got it coming. The Small Council, the High Sparrow, the Tyrells, you name it. She doesn't have anyone left besides Jamie and maybe not even him. So down it all comes!

[Speedy Cerviche]

Yeah the small council enemies of hers probably die, but it wouldn't be for the same reasons they did it in the book (An outsider wants keep Cersei in power to keep fucking everything up), because we're past the point in the book where it mattered since Cersei has been stripped of power by Tommen going against her and it's hard to see a scenario where she regains that. So as Khaldun mentions, leaves just vengeance.

The Jamie-Brienne-Riverrun thing I think was done anyway despite being pointless, for Jamie & Brienne's character development and as someone mentioned, apparently to get Jaime in place in the North half of the continent with an army, detached from KL doom, for future big events.

[eldaec]

I doubt they'll vary from the outline to that degree.

Varys heading back just to negotiate allies doesn't seem like it needs to happen in episode 10, or be brought up in episode 8, so I still think a murder spree is likely, not least because Varys monologing and the raven arriving would be such a strong finish.

I'd imagine the trial ends with Cersei in crown custody in the red keep. But killing Kevan, and maybe even Tommen and Margery, would leave Cersei as either queen or regent again, and in open conflict with the Sparrow. Jamie would then be able to return in time to kill the mad queen before she sets the city on fire.

[Mac]

Tommen is still only a child, so I doubt Varys would have him killed.

[eldaec]

I have no doubt book Varys would have him killed, but could imagine the TV writers having an issue. A giant statue of Baelor could fall on his head if needs be.

He has to die at some point, and it makes sense that his death it what drives Cersei over the edge leading to the fire.

I suppose it doesn't need to happen next week specifically.

[HaemishM]

The slow movement of women into power in Westeros is happening in the books, too, so in that respect they're following Martin. It's as much a result of multiple male heads of households dying, largely due to their own stupidity and greed, as it is initiative or agency by the female characters. But it may let Martin introduce some new way to organize what little is left of Westerosi society when the dust settles.

It could also be that he's referencing history and the rise to power of Elizabeth after the slaughter that was the War of the Roses (since that was his initial inspiration for the civil war).

I loved the episode, even though you could have predicted every single event in the damn thing before it ever happened. Sometimes, doing what's expected is if fine if it's done well. And the battle as well as the dragon bonfire? They were both done VERY VERY WELL. The fucking battle scene was incredible, as incredible as the utter abject stupidity of Jon Snow. His apparent array of knowledge is the null set, to paraphrase Ygritte.

Sansa does seem to be playing the Game of Thrones and only appears stupid if you think she didn't know that Littlefinger was waiting with the Vale army. She had to have known but to not let Jon in on it is pretty damn underhanded. Maybe the writers aren't thinking of it and just missed the obvious implications of her saving the day. I hope not, because the surviving men of the North have to see her as a savior. Not to mention that legally, she is the last Lady Bolton, meaning she owns that house. There were no other heirs (since Ramsey is dead and he killed his legitimate brother and heir in the womb). So any Bolton soldiers or remaining lords who had sworn loyalty to Bolton would have oaths to that house. AND since the house of Bolton is the legit Warden of the North, that means she may actually have a legit claim to not be considered a traitor to the crown AND legit claim to Winterfell.

And I don't think she was being hunted as in league with Tyrion in the death of Joffrey but who knows?

In short, I've probably thought more about that line of succession than the writers. 

[Polysorbate80]

It's also not un-possible that Sansa is pregnant with Ramsay's child

[Setanta]

Would Sansa not telling Jon also be linked to Jon's confusion. You can tell that Sansa is saying "treat me like an equal, I may have something useful to say and I know more than you do". Where Jon is all "hurr durr plan, I've fought white walkers and thanks for bringing back the 'know nuffin' meme that I thought I'd escaped".

I really don't see that alliance lasting and would love to see how far that could go when Sansa realises that Jon is a T.

Having said that, he is also the least fit to take the throne.

[Khaldun]

My guess is that Littlefinger is going to start up the "Jon is scheming to take Winterfell away from you, but he's just a dumb boy who is in over his head...the only way you can keep Winterfell safe for the Starks is to marry me--join the Vale and Winterfell together and we will rule the galaxy as father and son, wait sorry rule Westeros as husband and wife". Jon will probably obligingly be scripted to say something roughly dumb enough to give that credibility.

But my guess is that Bran shows up and pulls the rug out from under it all. If not this week, then early next season.

[Threash]

Sansa not telling Jon is no more complicated than the idea of trusting Littlefinger to save them would have been laughed off at best and made everyone think she was a dumb ass.  That plan is only acceptable retroactively, it would have never flown otherwise.

[Shannow]

My guess is that Littlefinger is going to start up the "Jon is scheming to take Winterfell away from you, but he's just a dumb boy who is in over his head...the only way you can keep Winterfell safe for the Starks is to marry me--join the Vale and Winterfell together and we will rule the galaxy as father and son, wait sorry rule Westeros as husband and wife".

Anyone else read that entirely in Littlefingers voice.

[MediumHigh]

Little Finger is dead this season.
Melisandra is also dead.
Od man frey probably dead.
Everyone in balors sept victims of wild fire.

Sansa or Jon snow dies very early next season. I pray its Sansa.

[Morat20]

My guess is that Littlefinger is going to start up the "Jon is scheming to take Winterfell away from you, but he's just a dumb boy who is in over his head...the only way you can keep Winterfell safe for the Starks is to marry me--join the Vale and Winterfell together and we will rule the galaxy as father and son, wait sorry rule Westeros as husband and wife". Jon will probably obligingly be scripted to say something roughly dumb enough to give that credibility.

But my guess is that Bran shows up and pulls the rug out from under it all. If not this week, then early next season.

[Polysorbate80]

Any pikes in the back of that line not pointed at the enemy might as well not be there.  Look at a Macedonian phalanx to see how to run one with spears that long.  And there still aren't enough.  They have enough men for a Roman-style line but they're armed wrong.

Only Jon Snow led cavalry would charge pikes.  Smart ones would just go around the formation and murder all the support troops on the way to storming the castle.  There wouldn't have been a phalanx if Bolton had known about the Vale knights.

Wun-wun could have easily taken away one of those pikes and used it to make a hole in the line, but I give it a pass since he's always seemed more "Hulk smash" and doesn't seem to think in terms of weapons or tactics.

[IainC]

They have enough men for a Roman-style line but they're armed wrong.

There is a bit where the Wildlings start to break through the shieldwall and, all of a sudden the Boltons are fighting with cestii and tower shields in that specific area.

[Khaldun]

Well, again, you have to think on his forces. A scattering of trained Northmen, but mostly Wildlings who aren't particularly used to fighting these kinds of conflicts and whose previous experience as an army was as a mob that intended to win by force of numbers (and then as a mob that got their asses kicked in a few minutes by a trained Westerosi army). Jon Snow, Davos and Lady Mormont don't have the weeks for a training montage because of the weather and the urgency of the situation. So it's not just that Jon was dumb, but also that he really didn't have experienced soldiers on the field.

[HaemishM]

For that matter, even the Night's Watch wouldn't be considered trained soldiers in the mode of that phalanx of Bolton footmen. They were used to fighting skirmishes against masses of untrained wildlings who didn't have cavalry, so they were likely trained to fight as skirmishers who emphasized individual combat skills over skills as a coordinated group. The guys in the shield wall were likely a small cadre of trained regular footmen that the Boltons and Umberjohns kept around.

Scottish pikemen in the War of Independence likely fought in a very similar way. That shit you see in Braveheart about "making spears twice as long as a man" was historically inaccurate bullshit. Irregular and regular armies had been fighting that way for centuries with varying degrees of efficacy. Wallace's men won at Stirling Bridge not because English Knights were suddenly surprised by hordes of stinky Scots poking them with sticks, they lost because 1) they charged across a bridge, funneling their forces into 2) very shitty, chewed up ground that slowed them down and removed their ability to crash through shield walls and 3) English knights thought they were fucking invincible and could charge a schiltron of spearmen. The English knight commanders were basically all Jon fucking Snow.

[palmer_eldritch]

I hope that Sansa falls out with Jon and a struggle ensues in which she is eventually triumphant but in the process she becomes EVIL so that when Arya returns they have an epic sister vs sister duel in which Arya is victorious, wiping her sister's blood off her miniature sword called Needle.

Sadly then Daenerys Targaryen will arrive on her cheat code dragons and effortlessly  turn everyone into toast.

[Polysorbate80]

They have enough men for a Roman-style line but they're armed wrong.

There is a bit where the Wildlings start to break through the shieldwall and, all of a sudden the Boltons are fighting with cestii and tower shields in that specific area.

I was referring more to the lack of shorter spears and javelins.  But yes, that's where the lack of discipline (literally) kills Jon's troops.  Romans had the discipline and training to break a phalanx, the wildlings most certainly do not.

Edit:  although the northern European tribesmen (sorta-wildlings) were able to overwhelm the Roman lines at times.  They had to do it quickly if it was going to happen though.

[Cyrrex]

All commentary aside about questionable plot choices and military strategy, that battle was insanely well done.  I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so intense on film before.  I have no idea how they pulled all that off.  It wasn't flawless, but damn close.  Quite a feat for serial television.

When Jon was getting trampled and buried, I could feel myself physically reacting to it, and I am only mildly claustrophobic.  It looked like a real mass of bodies, and they looked like they were really getting mashed.

[eldaec]

Also made so much stronger by the limited amount of dialog - whole episode was on 'show don't tell' mode and benefitted tremendously.

[Khaldun]

Yes. It was terrifically filmed.

[Ozzu]

All commentary aside about questionable plot choices and military strategy, that battle was insanely well done.  I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so intense on film before.  I have no idea how they pulled all that off.  It wasn't flawless, but damn close.  Quite a feat for serial television.

When Jon was getting trampled and buried, I could feel myself physically reacting to it, and I am only mildly claustrophobic.  It looked like a real mass of bodies, and they looked like they were really getting mashed.

This. So much this. Even knowing that Jon Snow absolutely 100% was not going to die there, when he's getting trampled and the sad music kicks in? I felt like I was right there with him. I literally took a deep breath when he poked his head out from that mass of humanity and gasped for air.

That was just pure fucking greatness. I've already watched the episode twice and I'll probably watch it again.

[Shannow]

I can hand wave the shield wall away by saying that Ramsay if nothing else was a pretty darn innovative commander and probably took the time to train those forces specifically in that method. Wun wun was ineffective because he was similar to a horse when presented with a big wall of spiky bits...rather skittish. (See infantry squares in Napoleanic warfare?).  Oh who the fuck cares it was awesome.

Ok one more bit, what they should've done with Rickon is have Ramsey shoot at him, Rickon zig zag and then just when Jon thinks he's going to save him have Ramsay have his entire force of archers loose a volley at him. I think that would've been more plausible.

Either way it gives us this. Which is better than everything

[Bunk]

What really amazed me was that the whole trampling/fighting through the mass/coming up for air sequence (which made me feel claustrophobic as hell) was actually an audible by the director because they were running out of time to film what was scripted.

That short posted on how they put the battle together is really worth a watch.