Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[IainC]

The battle direction itself was great aesthetically during the initial clash.  I don't think I've ever seen a battle sequence done like that from the tight over the shoulder perspective. Really captured the ferocity and chaos. Excellent work, very crisp too.

There's a really great video explaining the cinematography and battle direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B93k4uhpf7g

[Rendakor]

I think the question now is what is the next step for the Starks? I assume they'll work to consolidate the North and then what, go after the Freys?

They ought to just start getting ready for the White Walkers and reinforce the wall, maybe start manning those empty castles up there. That was Jon's whole point of taking Winterfell, right? He needed a good base in the north to support the Watch. If he goes south to fuck around with the Freys he's just as stupid as all the other players still involved in the war between men; that would make his entire time with the Watch worthless as it would show that he has learned nothing.

[Shannow]

The battle direction itself was great aesthetically during the initial clash.  I don't think I've ever seen a battle sequence done like that from the tight over the shoulder perspective. Really captured the ferocity and chaos. Excellent work, very crisp too.

There's a really great video explaining the cinematography and battle direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B93k4uhpf7g

Thanks for that.  Excellent video.

I think next episode we'lol see Dany board a ship but won't see her land till next season.

It's titled Winds of Winter so I'm guessing we are going to see some invading zombie army crap
Are we getting two more seasons or one?

[Samwise]

There's a really great video explaining the cinematography and battle direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B93k4uhpf7g

Wow, a lot more of that battle was "real" than I thought would be possible.  Very impressive.

[Teleku]

First, what I hated.     Since most of you already addressed those points, I'm going to do a bit of sir brucing.

You're right, it's not full Deus Ex. It's the arriving at 00.1 on the bomb timer I found bullshit manufactured drama. Arriving earlier or (as fits the show) too late to save people would have been more satisfactory.

Yes.  They literally waited until Jons entire fucking army was dead.  Only then saving the day.  Which is cool and all, but literally everybody in the north is dead now.  If Jon is seen riding around with an army that is not 99% Vale knights, its horseshit lazy TV Writing because all his men died, and he killed all the men of every other major house in the North (since all of them apparently did just go over to Bolton).  Could have been handled in a less cliche way, that left more open for the future.

Yea, the timing is key. If the reinforcements had arrived an hour earlier, Ramsay and Co. would have retreated into Winterfell for a siege; an hour later and "welp, everybody's dead."

They were on horseback.  If they had attacked earlier, they would have crushed into the side of Bastards army before he had a chance to get back, and he probably would have died with everybody else.  A bigger battle overall at that point, but the casualties all moved around (which would have been way better from a story telling standpoint).  Also helps address the point above (though only a little).

My gripe...in typical Stark stupidity, Rickon runs in a straight fucking line. Come on. Zig and zag a bit! Jon falls for the trap. Should have caused all their deaths.

I hated this to, but for a different reason.  Making perfect shots like that is pretty fucking stupid on top of all the other mary sue bullshit surrounding Ramsey.  What that action should have caused, in keeping with the shows theme (until this season) of punishing stupidity and cliches, is that Ramsey (overconfident cock that he is) misses every shot and Jon saves him.  Ramsy looks pissed, goes well fuck, and is forced to charge the army now since they have Ned Stark's true born son.  THATS what realistically would have happened if anybody tried that bullshit.  Instead we got the biggest mary sue in history keeping up is god like perfection.  Bleh.  Should have just flayed him alive on his side of the line or something.

To echo what MediumHigh said, how exactly is Sansa so smart? She got a lot of Northmen allies killed (at least in the overly sensational *TV writing* version of events), and almost got Jon killed too because she didn't confide in him that she had a brigade of knights on their side who she had secretly turned down and then summoned again. She rants at Jon like a child after the council the night before about his plans being bad, but offering no helpful suggestions, all while withholding a huge secret that would have dramatically altered the calculations of her marshals. I would be kinda pissed at her if I were Jon.

And yes, very much this.  Her not mentioning anything was such pointless TV drama bullshit.  She literally got thousands of people killed for no apparent reason.  Since she was with him the very next day, she obviously had to have known he was within striking distance before the battle started.  At that point, its "Hey, there's an entire army of knights from an entire kingdom that hasn't lost anybody at all in the last several years of warfare half a day away.  Just go out and like, distract the Boltons by standing in front of them for awhile, and we'll murder them."  Again, its just....really really jarring. 

BEYOND all that stupidity..... good episode.   

The battle sequence was really well done for the first half.  I was not expecting that level of detail and care, since this series has tried really hard to avoid showing any major battles on screen (I mean, battle of the blackwater was a few dozen men running around in the dark next to a wall).  That may be one of the best portrayals of medival fighting I've seen.

Well, until they just stood there and let the other guys slowly march around them with shields.  Then do a cross between 300 and the Garbage Compactor scene from Star Wars.  That was also stupid and broke immersion.  They keep flailing between amazing ideas and terrible ideas.  They seem to have forgotten the middle ground.   

[Rasix]

Yah, from the level of Starkiness to the plot resolution, it was a bucket of dumb. But, it was well executed and very visually satisfying.  It was fun to watch, and they pulled off a level of scale that I wasn't sure they were capable of portraying well. The aftermath should be interesting as well.  

Mereen was good until the whole Ironborn sit down.  It was a bit clumsy, although if it gets us a Yara on Dany scene, I'm OK with it.  

[Merusk]

Dany certainly looked like she'd be willing to give it a go when Yara implied it. 

[MediumHigh]

Dany certainly looked like she'd be willing to give it a go when Yara implied it. 

"I'm a woman"
"Yes and I'm a woman"
"Friends forever!"

[Khaldun]

I am still guessing the Wall comes down next week. Probably right after Littlefinger reveals that he's scheming to put himself on the Iron Throne with her as his wife in charge of the North--I think Littlefinger is in place for his comeuppance in which he discovers that the Game of Thrones is over and now begins the Game of Bones (not the brothel kind, the undead ice zombie kind). That makes next season full-on Ice and Fire time--I suspect Dany will land in Dorne with a Dothraki/Dragon/Unsullied/Second Son/Ironborn/Sand Snake horde, while Jon and Sansa become the focal point for all the characters who are not in the south (Brotherhood and Hound; Brienne and Pod; Bran and Coldhands and Meera). Sam, Euron, Arya are the characters where I think it's pretty hard to figure out exactly how they're going to fit in with everything. Maybe the last defense will be in Oldtown rather than King's Landing (since it was the first place the First Men settled, that seems appropriate).

I dunno whether Cersei's going to blow up King's Landing this season or not, though.

[Viin]

Hey, I actually got some points this episode. Go Sansa!
 
Player           Violence   Sex/Nudity   Wits   Status   Looks
Petyr Baelish   0   0   0   25   0
Sansa Stark    45   0   30   30   0

[Merusk]

I dunno whether Cersei's going to blow up King's Landing this season or not, though.

Next week is the Trial and Jamie is at Frey's. If you believe Jamie will kill her to stop it then it won't happen until next season. I think it'll be the season closer, King's Landing in flames and Tommen dead by her stupidity.

[Setanta]

Sansa has an army supporting her  now. The victors who took no casualties. Jon has an army that he almost led to destruction. The roles are reversed and while Sansa may not have realised it (I'll reserve judgement as that smirk at the end may mean she is feeling true power as a result of revenge for the first time), she is the powerbase in alliance with Petyr. Their roles reversed and interestingly, her decision to come late to the party and sacrifice Jon's forces parrallels Ramsey's decision to open fire on his own troops who had engaged Jon;s forces.

I have a feeling that Jon and Sansa will fall out if this is the case as she is far more understanding.

[Teleku]

This season has taught me that you are giving her to much credit.  There is no scheme.  They came late because it was good TV drama.  It will play out with Peter and Jon negotiating stuff while Sansa stands idly around with a smirk like she did something.  Maybe in the end they work it against Peter, but it will ignore anything that came before it except them finding out he was responsible for their fathers death.  She had zero plots or thoughts before Littlefinger showed up.  She will just go with the flow.

[MrHat]

This season has taught me that you are giving her to much credit.  There is no scheme.  They came late because it was good TV drama.  It will play out with Peter and Jon negotiating stuff while Sansa stands idly around with a smirk like she did something.  Maybe in the end they work it against Peter, but it will ignore anything that came before it except them finding out he was responsible for their fathers death.  She had zero plots or thoughts before Littlefinger showed up.  She will just go with the flow.

My bet is that when Jon asks Sansa WTF she says something about trust/deals with the devil and Littlefinger was a very very last resort for whatever reason and that they totally would've gotten there at the start of the battle if Jon hadn't charged in and instead followed his own plan.

I really enjoyed the whole episode.  My biggest gripe was Sansa's smile at the end. It is either (1) way too heavy foreshadowing for Evil Sansa or (2) totally unnecessary as she already turned around and looked back to watch the dogs.  They really could've pivoted her to stoneface killer instead of sadistic.

Prediction for the end of the season: King's Landing in green flames, Horses on Boats: The Dany Story, Jon gets the Crypt/Tower of Joy "Who am I?" reveal through Bran, Sansa kills Littlefinger somehow with "The north remembers".

[Khaldun]

Might be that Bran and Arya both show up at Winterfell just in time for ringside seats at the invasion of the White Walkers.

[eldaec]

So, this was a great episode, but I couldn't help but imagine how much better it would have been with buildup on par with seasons 1-4.

Dany was great and I thought credible for the first time in 59 episodes.

Regarding the Riders of Rohan arriving at one minute to midnight, I took Sansa's look to mean, "I didn't tell you about these guys because you are a dumbass and would have committed them too early". I took them to have been waiting just over the hill the whole time. For me, it paid off the apparent stupidity of Sansa not telling Jon about her letter.

Jon being a dumbass was well earned, the parley was great, the war council scene with Sansa was great, the scene with Melisandre was great, and the thing with Rickon was great. Missing any one of them would have made it not great.

Sansa at the end was also fine - given the way they handled her with Ramsey they needed something over the top, the show would probably be better if they didn't feel the need to add so much Theon, Sansa, and Ramsey torture porn, but you can't just have the first two then kill Ramsey off screen.


Next week I'd assume Bran is resolving the tower of joy and explaining how the walkers will threaten the wall. The trailer implies we get at least the opening of Cersei's trial, the white raven scene, unnecessary winterfell emo bullshit, and you have to hope Dany hands Mereen over the Grey Worm and Missandei. Jamie in an expensive looking scene at the twins is intriguing, not least as Brienne and the Brotherhood are headed the same way, which opens up the possibility of a Stoneheart replacement plot. Or even actual Stoneheart.

I wonder if we'll get an establishing shot at the citadel. I can't help wondering if that is where friendzone is headed - it feels like he needs a 30 second closing scene, the Citadel seems a logical place to try for a cure, and somebody needs to head down there and bring Sam back into play.

I don't think there is enough time to blow up King's Landing and really don't imagine that happening without Jamie present.

[Polysorbate80]

Jamie is at Frey's.

I don't seriously expect but would be thrilled to see Jaime go "Red Wedding" on the Freys

[Samwise]

Based on previews it looked like the Freys and Lannisters are going to be teaming up to march on Winterfell.

[eldaec]

That could be the in universe explanation, but I don't buy it as the real narrative. The next attack on Winterfell will surely be the walkers, possibly they are moving Jamie up for that attack, but I don't see what he adds, he doesn't have anything to resolve north of the twins.

The more I think of it, the more I think he must be going the Twins and referencing the wedding so that the Brotherhood can kick the crap out of the Freys, and he can finish his arc with Brienne - even if it doesn't happen next week, and even if the Brotherhood getting involved without Catelyn makes no sense.


 

[Threash]

Sansa didn't tell Jon because he would have told her she was a dumb cunt for trusting the guy who betrayed their father.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I really enjoyed the whole episode.  My biggest gripe was Sansa's smile at the end. It is either (1) way too heavy foreshadowing for Evil Sansa or (2) totally unnecessary as she already turned around and looked back to watch the dogs.  They really could've pivoted her to stoneface killer instead of sadistic.

I think they're just trying to convey character development not sadism, they make sure to beat the audience hard with it to get it across. It was to reinforce that she's a hardass now and not some little girly. She stays to watch the hounds when her first instinct is to turn away, then relishes the victory over her tormentor .

[Merusk]

That could be the in universe explanation, but I don't buy it as the real narrative. The next attack on Winterfell will surely be the walkers, possibly they are moving Jamie up for that attack, but I don't see what he adds, he doesn't have anything to resolve north of the twins.

The more I think of it, the more I think he must be going the Twins and referencing the wedding so that the Brotherhood can kick the crap out of the Freys, and he can finish his arc with Brienne - even if it doesn't happen next week, and even if the Brotherhood getting involved without Catelyn makes no sense.


 

Hmm. The Brothehood ar the Twins also brings the Hound to Jamie, who can then return to Kings Landing and kill his brother while Jamie kills his sister.

[Khaldun]

Does Jon know anything about Littlefinger? Certainly the betrayal of Ned is not something that Jon would have even the faintest knowledge of--that was only for people in King's Landing to parse out.

[Abagadro]

They didn't just let the phalanx walk up and surround them. They were engaged with the primary attacking force that Ramsay didn't give a shit about.  Bolton army basically performed a pretty textbook encirclement not dissimilar to Cannae: sucked them forward, engaged them into a slog, then surrounded them for good old fashioned slaughter. 

[Polysorbate80]

That was a pretty shitty phalanx (shallow with only one rank of pikes that I recall) but against undisciplined wildlings I'll buy it.

Really it only makes sense from Sansa/Littlefinger's perspective to wait for all the forces to be engaged.  As pointed out, Ramsay could have sat behind the walls of Winterfell; he needed to be baited out.  Also, cavalry is historically one of the best ways to trash a phalanx.  Onionknight leaving a few archers in reserve to hit them from the rear would have worked as well.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Yeah but since when did Northmen arm & fight like hoplites?

[Khaldun]

I think that's the part that doesn't make any sense to me if I'm going to get anal-retentive about it--I don't buy that Northern armies have a bunch of long shields and hoplite spears sitting around in the basement armory. We've *seen* the North fight, it's not their thing (or indeed anybody we've seen in Westeros so far). This is not just tactical improvisation (say, the Braveheart version of William Wallace sharpening a bunch of logs for an anti-cavalry fortification). That was forged stuff. If Northern soldiers or Westerosi armies kept that kind of gear around for the fight where it works, then Jon would have been trained on it while growing up and at least a few of his allies would know about that kind of stuff too.

[Soln]

So who dies next week?  Sansa or Jon?  I assume the killing-a-hero-so-you-cant-enjoy-closure-Martintrope is planned for the last episode?  Littlefinger has all the men, kills one of both of them, owns North, yes?

[Chimpy]

So who dies next week?  Sansa or Jon?  I assume the killing-a-hero-so-you-cant-enjoy-closure-Martintrope is planned for the last episode?  Littlefinger has all the men, kills one of both of them, owns North, yes?

Haven't the big death scenes always been in Ep 9 with Ep 10 being mainly a closure/prep for the next season?

Fuck it, I don't know or really care anymore. This show has pretty much turned into another Mad Men for me, I am tired of the shitshow it has evolved into but I still can't stop myself from holding on until it is done.

[Phildo]

There's a lot left to tie up in King's Landing, much more likely that one or more major characters gets killed off there rather than Winterfell.

[Tale]

That was a pretty shitty phalanx (shallow with only one rank of pikes that I recall) but against undisciplined wildlings I'll buy it.

What didn't make sense to me was that Wun Wun just allows the Bolton forces to line up right next to him, and although he looks like he could easily swat the whole line away, create a breach for his friends to run through, or even run into that breach and mow down the whole line of spearmen from their flank, he does nothing visible until the spearing starts. I think this is because in the long shots, where he's visible on one corner of the Stark forces as they're being surrounded, he is actually a motionless prop :)

[calapine]

So, some remarks while I am in still in GoT-Wine haze.  

1)
The Danny parts bothered me again. She is literally Visersys with tits and dragons. (Talk grand without much to back it up, but unless hims she gets dragons and fire/plot immunity).

As much as I like Cersei it's clear she does stupid things and fucks up because of them. But if Cersei had Danny's luck and deus-ex-machine saves she'd be Queen of the Andals, First Men and White Walkers by now. It sort of cheapens the moral lesson of the show. Makes sense?


2)
The Battle was shot nicely cinematographlying.

The "Trap" was the dumbest thing ever. Who falls for that? Even I, as a too-wimpy-for-Westeros person, would have said, in that situation, "Uhh, it's not like that I don't like my brother, but...eh, what can you do? *apologetic shrug*"
Again, makes sense? Or I am missing 'something' here?

And Snow is dumb, but why did experienced Davos fall for it and order a charge?

The "Rescue" wasn't Deus Ex Machina, imho. Sansa ordered an army, we knew that, and it came at it came at the appointed time.  Her not mentioning it beforehand seems iffy though, all it would have taken is "Lets have a nice pre-battle brunch" to waste an hour and let them arrive BEFORE the fight.

The "Enveloping" was a bit uneven. The speed of it was of a cavalry charge, and secondly, since when are Northerners Greek Hoplites? Performed by the Unsullied it would have "fitted"


3)
I predict we will end up missing Ramsay. Not that he isn't an asshole, but who else cuts of dicks so well, eats Bratwurst so suggestively and generally manages to be so hate-able. At least he spiced things up!

[calapine]

So who dies next week?  Sansa or Jon?  I assume the killing-a-hero-so-you-cant-enjoy-closure-Martintrope is planned for the last episode?  Littlefinger has all the men, kills one of both of them, owns North, yes?

It's obvious Maester Qyborn will die. That's not based on any inside-knowledge but due the fact that I like him. Which seems to be a bad omen for characters in that show.

[Teleku]

Book spoiler:

Though with all the foreshadowing, that likely means she has the freedom to burn the city to the ground.  Later on, she'll tell Jaime, who murdered his own king to stop that event from happening.  At which point Jaime chokes a bitch.  Though I doubt all of that will happen next episode obviously.

[Mac]