Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[palmer_eldritch]

Loads of cliffhangers and it did the job of making me certain to watch the next season when it comes, but it kind if felt like the season was only half finished. Obviously the earlier ones ended of cliffhangers too, but they felt more satisfying somehow. (It's still a great show, it just has high expectations to meet)

It was a bit disappointing that the blood magic seemed to simply not work in this case. Obviously Stannis had to come to a sticky end because of what he did but there was no twist to the tale like there was when magic didn't work out for Dany. It simply ... didn't do anything.

I enjoyed the ending. I don't know if anyone else saw it coming but it was a shock to me and also made sense based on what had happened previously, so that's great.

I hope Arya makes it to the very end as I need at least one person I can cheer for (not such a Dany fan).

Regarding food in Winterfell - I always figured their talk about how terrible winters are was some sort of folk memory of zombies heading south, even though none of them seemed to believe in zombies. I guess it probably gets very cold too though.

[Lantyssa]

I think the people that died off camera are dead.  Hound died off camera and it would be kind of a cheap stunt to have them spring up or just barely hang on.

Uh...

um....

You're going to be so disappointed.

It was a bit disappointing that the blood magic seemed to simply not work in this case. Obviously Stannis had to come to a sticky end because of what he did but there was no twist to the tale like there was when magic didn't work out for Dany. It simply ... didn't do anything.

Melisandre said she saw banners burning.  She didn't say she saw Stannis doing the burning.

[Threash]

It was a devils bargain, the magic did exactly what it was asked: the snows stopped and the army was able to march.  Of course he still got fucked in the end though, that's how the whole devil's bargain plot works.

[eldaec]

Kinslaying and oathbreaking are the two ways you are guaranteed to end up dead in ASOIAF.

[Thrawn]

What an awful and disjointed episode.

[angry.bob]

Surprised the boat wasn't named Live 4 Ever.

Not related, but you really need to photoshop a 3/4 side shot of Nick Offerman overtop the part of your avatar's face that's not behind a mask. You've had Nick Offerman since before my son was born and you shan't be changing it now sir.

What an awful and disjointed episode.

It will suck to no end if a show that was great in part due to violence and nudity has decided to cut away from the violence and the actors that have already been nude a bunch decide they're too serious for nudity. It's de be like the Spartacus show deciding no more gladiator stuff.

[eldaec]

The more I think about it, the more I think Jon's death is the worst thing about this season. (Dorne can at least be put in a box and forgotten about)

Significant deaths in ASOIAF don't just happen randomly. They happen as a consequence of a character's actions.

Jon's book death flows from oathbreaking, on TV after he is presumably resurrected this will just seem like a pointless cliffhanger and transparent plot device to free him from his Night's Watch vows.

That it reverses Owen Teale's character development and was based around a cheap Benjen stunt just serves to remind us how shitty the writing has been all season. On the other hand, every actor on the wall deserves credit for being watchable in this dreck. Seems half the scenes in GoT I find myself thinking how well the cast delivered such a mediocre script.

[eldaec]

Unless Kit Harington's protestations that he isn't coming back despite a contract extension after season 5 finished filming are true.

In which case it is not just a cheap plot device, it becomes a cheap and arbitrary plot.

[apocrypha]

As a non-reader of the books, the long walk of shame was actually a very good demonstration of the hatred felt by the bulk of the population towards people like the Lannisters.

It did help explain somewhat the apparent power of the Sparrows. It's seemed really strange all of this season that they can imprison who they want, apparently with impunity. When you start to understand that they have huge popular support it makes more sense.

[Khaldun]

It's the Reformation, really--when the cities of Europe began to really assert their economic and political muscle over rural fiefdoms (nobles and peasants alike) plus when popular and very violent religious movements suddenly gained serious power, especially in the cities. Reading about religious movements and leaders in 16th and early 17th Century Europe can be almost hilarious in a way--the typical biography has "and then he was forced to flee [a city] because violent crowds were attacking and killing his followers" about every three or four years. Followed by "And then he was invited by the burghers of [another city] to come and cleanse their city of heretics."

[Draegan]

Unless Kit Harington's protestations that he isn't coming back despite a contract extension after season 5 finished filming are true.

In which case it is not just a cheap plot device, it becomes a cheap and arbitrary plot.

I don't know if i should spoiler this, so I did anyway

[eldaec]

Unless Kit Harington's protestations that he isn't coming back despite a contract extension after season 5 finished filming are true.

In which case it is not just a cheap plot device, it becomes a cheap and arbitrary plot.

I don't know if i should spoiler this, so I did anyway

If a non reading viewer simply views GoT as an hour of plot driven adventure TV this is fair. If my expectations of GoT were the same as my expectations of 24, I expect I'd just roll my eyes and laugh.

[Yegolev]

This thread is ridiculous.

[Riggswolfe]

It was a bit disappointing that the blood magic seemed to simply not work in this case. Obviously Stannis had to come to a sticky end because of what he did but there was no twist to the tale like there was when magic didn't work out for Dany. It simply ... didn't do anything.

On this:

It makes sense to me. The blood magic requires King's blood and it only partly worked because Stannis isn't the rightful king. When you watch the scene where Stannis is told people deserted him and his wife killed herself a look comes across Melisandre's face. I interpreted it as a light (harhar) dawning on her that Stannis wasn't the right person for her needs and probably never was. It's very, very telling that she immediately rode to Castle Black as I believe, like has been said in lots of places, that she thinks Jon IS that person. My hope is he'll be a grave disappointment to her if/when she does what we all expect and says "by the way, I don't burn people at the stake or murder my kin simply to win a battle."

[eldaec]

The snow did melt.

Whether that was a result of the burning, who knows.

 I'd add that Selyse dying, the desertions, and Brienne finding Stannis were also clearly a result of the burning,  and that fits the general theme of ASOIAF that you face all the consequences of all your actions, the good doesn't wash out the bad, nor vice versa.

The overall story of the stannis arc was fine, even if the execution let it down in that they didn't really do a good enough job in Stannis' decision. I don't think it was supposed to be 'crazy zealot stannis' so much as 'uttlerly desperate and see no other option to save the realm stannis'. Obviously his problem is that he conflates saving the realm with saving his claim.

[Slyfeind]

I'm curious. How did the book describe Stannis's encounter with Brienne? Did he explicitly die?

[Merusk]

No such encounter happened. In the books Stannis is still snowbound and Reek/Theon shows up with Aya/Jeynne. The last chapter we see Stannis in his camp is being attacked by Boltons' men.  Brienne is nowhere near the North for the books.

A Dance with Dragons Book Summary for Stannis

[eldaec]

Though in the books Brienne was just as explicit in promising vengeance when she entered Catelyn's service.

So the plan when CoK was written was almost certainly for her to meet him one day.

In the books Stannis was responsible for Renly's death by omission rather than action - so I've always wondered if her eventual encounter woth stannis would be the time they both learned that unbending 'iron' vows are generally unhealthy. But given events in the riverlands,  the books may be doing that a different way.

[Cyrrex]

The offscreen nature of Stannis death, though, is a deliberate troll from the producers to leave us with doubt about his actual death.  Just like with Melisandre, she with the power to resurrect people, showing up in Castle Black is supposed to leave us wondering about Jon Snow.  It is not like they have shown any reluctance in displaying the brutal killings of characters way more likeable than Stannis.  I am not sure of the point of leaving Stannis alive at this point, however, which makes me wonder just wtf they are up to.  He finally bet the house, and he lost.

Also, Zombie Clegane is a clear message that we shouldn't assume that dead people stay dead.

[Yegolev]

Due to the Benjen thing, no, the producers cannot be trusted in any way.

[Tannhauser]

Stannis is dead, why in the world would she keep him alive?  She got Renly's vengeance, said a big speech and everything.  The jump cut wasn't to spare Stannis, it was to shock us into thinking Ramsey struck her from behind.

[eldaec]

The manner of Stannis' execution isn't just a troll and the bad type of cliffhanger (failing to resolve this episode's question rather than setting up the question to be asked next week), it also robs Brienne's story of any impact.

Great blog about writing satisfactory cliffhangers that describes why this was all felt so unsatisfactory much better than I can..

http://johnfinnemore.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/yverdon-les-bains.html?m=1

Particular passage:

You can't use a cliff-hanger instead of an ending. Some shows do, but I think it's cheating. Any episode that ends with a cliffhanger must also have a satisfying conclusion in itself. Ideally, the main question of the episode should be answered - but the answer should then throw up an unexpected larger question, which provides the cliff-hanger.

The cliffhanger has to be an emotional one, or at least a direct dilemma for a central character or characters, not a physical or external one. The question left unanswered must always be 'What will he or she do now?' not 'What will happen to him or her now?' To take an example completely at random, a bad cliff-hanger would be 'The hero's been forced to jump off a roof! Will he survive?', but a good cliff-hanger is 'He DID survive! But how? And why's he hiding from his friend?'

A cliff-hanger is a promise to the audience. It's implicitly saying 'I'm withholding the gratification of giving you the answer now, but trust me, when you get it, you'll think it was worth the wait.' And if you're going to make a promise like that, you'd better be able to back it up, or at least think you can.

[Threash]

Stannis is dead, why in the world would she keep him alive?  She got Renly's vengeance, said a big speech and everything.  The jump cut wasn't to spare Stannis, it was to shock us into thinking Ramsey struck her from behind.

Because of what he said. "Do your duty" means protecting the Stark kids, not personal revenge. The look on her face and the deliberate cut away has to mean something. Keep in mind Sansa is out there and knows Bran and Rickon are alive, if Stannis is alive it keeps the "find the Stark heir and the north will support you" plot in play. I'm guessing book Stannis is going to lose the battle but live, which puts the book and show at basically the same spot.

[Cyrrex]

Stannis is dead, why in the world would she keep him alive?  She got Renly's vengeance, said a big speech and everything.  The jump cut wasn't to spare Stannis, it was to shock us into thinking Ramsey struck her from behind.

Because of what he said. "Do your duty" means protecting the Stark kids, not personal revenge. The look on her face and the deliberate cut away has to mean something. Keep in mind Sansa is out there and knows Bran and Rickon are alive, if Stannis is alive it keeps the "find the Stark heir and the north will support you" plot in play. I'm guessing book Stannis is going to lose the battle but live, which puts the book and show at basically the same spot.

More or less my exact thinking as well.  When he said "Do your duty" my immediate next thought was "to the Stark girls".  And I fully expected her not to kill Stannis, and the cutaway more or less convinced me.  If they wanted Stannis dead, they would have done a slo-mo shot of Brienne's blade cleaving his skull in the goriest fashion possible.  Main characters tend to get killed rather gruesomely on screen in this series.  The main exception I can think of is the Hound...but part of me has always been thinking that Thoros of Myr could easily be close by, and we already know he can resurrect people (and haha, it would be the lord of fire bringing him back and wouldn't that just be irony).  And I realize this one is a bit out there, but Jaqen told Arya "you lie" when she said she let him die and she hated him.  Maybe it was two lies in one statement.  I actually don't really believe this one, because even though the Hound "died" offscreen, it was still very dramatic.  Or maybe there will be a Zombie Clegane Brothers Showdown Spectaculario, which I would also support. 

I will also not be surprised if Stannis actually is dead and that the writers are just pulling the old triple reverse fake on us.  Same for Jon Snow, although Jon Snow in a wolf's body might also be on the cards.

I'll stop rambling now.

[Samwise]

Zombie Clegane Brothers Showdown Spectaculario

[Lantyssa]

The main exception I can think of is the Hound...but part of me has always been thinking that Thoros of Myr could easily be close by, and we already know he can resurrect people (and haha, it would be the lord of fire bringing him back and wouldn't that just be irony).  And I realize this one is a bit out there, but Jaqen told Arya "you lie" when she said she let him die and she hated him.  Maybe it was two lies in one statement.  I actually don't really believe this one, because even though the Hound "died" offscreen, it was still very dramatic.  Or maybe there will be a Zombie Clegane Brothers Showdown Spectaculario, which I would also support.

[Bunk]

[Yegolev]

Also Trunks.

[Merusk]

And Krillen.

Goddamnit, Krillen.

[Tale]

[Samwise]

How is that a spoiler?  Someone has to have read the book to know what you're talking about, and if they've read the book then they've already had Zombie Catelyn spoiled for them (if she ever shows up in the show, which I don't think she will at this point).

 

[Cheddar]

What if the fire and ice God is one and the same? 

[Yegolev]

My wife says that is horseshit.  I sort of agree.  However, I made it to the end of Battlestar Galactica and I can make it to the end of this.

[Abagadro]

Oh God. Please don't let them fuck this up like that.

[eldaec]

What if the fire and ice God is one and the same? 

I've always assumed this is the case. Or that there are no actual gods in ASOIAF, just a single tide of magic/power that people/creatures seek to control/use/grow/suppress.

And I interpreted the house of Black and White, house of undying, Varys's origin speech, Existence of a wall made of ice to stop the forces of ice, the seven, Davos's hand and quaithe as fairly clearly hinting at this, then the citadel chapters pretty well confirm it.

The series is riddled with concepts of duality, for there to be an ice god and fire god staring each other down across the heavens makes no thematic sense. Or I am dumb. Which is certainly possible.