Black Ops ships

[xorx]

.. worth training for? Thoughts and opinions - the fanfest/patchnotes seemed to imply that the newly revamped transports could use the blackops jump gates.
Seems like a lot of training to not be able to use a covops cloak ...

What do you guys think - anyone actually use one?

[Phildo]

I've seen one used.  Once.  It was extremely useful at the time, but the application was pretty limited (jumping cloaked support ships into a blockaded system).

[sanctuary]

I bought a few Sins about 6 months or so ago, in the expectation that they will get a boost. Yes this has been and will be a long term investment, but my plan will eventually come to fruition...2010 

What Phil said though, their usefulness is very limited at the moment.

[IainC]

They are also useful for hit and run attacks on small gangs behind enemy lines. Uncloak, murder something then get out before the rest of the gang takes you down. It takes a lot of patience though and you need to pick your battles very carefully your kill ratio has to be enormous as one loss will wipe out a lot of gains.

[TripleDES]

There's a Covert/Black Ops Cyno Generator or some shit, right? After all, you don't want to be seen jumping in other people. I've started training towards Black Ops stuff after resubbing, hoping for some cool stuff.

[Predator Irl]

Yes there is a covops cyno which only covop ships can see / use. I think Black Ops may become a lot more useful after this patch, certainly EW will anyway. I have heard that the blackops jump portal is very inefficient fuel wise, so I don't know how sensible it would be for using with transports. I will let you know in a few months, because I am going to train for one provided that missiles aren't completely gimped now.

[Goumindong]

They haven't totally fixed black ops BS yet. At least IIRC you still can't jump into cyno jammed systems. If that got changed they are going to be awesome.

Black Ops cynos don't show up on your overview at range like normal ones do, they are hard to see[because they're black in color, otherwise like a normal cyno] and many people won't have them on their overview due to the whole "new ship overview" problem.

So if they fix the fuel issue[at least partially fixed since blockade runners can now follow them through and use cov-ops cloaks(not even fucking joking) and the jammer issue they'll be really great

[5150]

The biggest complaint seems to be the capacity for jump fuel (to which I heard they were planning to add a dedicated fuel bay)

I've always kept one eye on training Widow on my empire war toon (which may sound odd at first) mainly because hes ECM specc'd but party because it would be fun to undock into a station camp, blow some people up and then jump to low sec rather than having to wait for the agro timer to expire so I can redock (which impossible if you have to keep jaming people to stay alive). I also like the idea of a cloaking scorpion (without the usualy locking penalties)

However it was then suggested by someone that a warp scram/disruptor will also prevent jumping which is a slight flaw if you cant jam all the tacklers

[Pezzle]

Allowing covert cynos into Jammed systems makes them (and the ships able to use the cyno) overly powerful.  That will be the new nano in terms of pvp avoidance. 

[TripleDES]

They're just black ops battleships. Nothing invincible. Now if you could jump capitals in, then that'd be overpowered.

[Pezzle]

Right, so you have gangs of cloaking ships able to bypass defenders attempts to catch them almost at will.  If an area gets too hot you either cloak up and go make dinner or just cyno out.  That does not promote fights, it promotes ganks from the cloakers and frustration from the opposition.  Even a skilled defender has about 0% chance of catching a majority of that gang.  You may catch a fool or two but you will rarely crush a gang like that outright.  Add alt lookouts and spies to the mix as well. 

I love some of the solutions for cloakers afk in your systems.  Rat in groups, yeah, because when you have 5-6 people afk in a 12 belt system there is enough income for a reasonable number of defenders to npc together.  God knows ratters should have to align and warp together at all times lest the straggler be caught and killed before his friends can warp back in, since the cloakers can pick the place and time of engagement...

Replacing one fucked up mechanic with another does not fix the system.  I am not sure if CCP simply ignores human nature or simply fails at providing adequate incentives to change behavior, but what the hell.

[Goumindong]

Allowing covert cynos into Jammed systems makes them (and the ships able to use the cyno) overly powerful.  That will be the new nano in terms of pvp avoidance. 

No, it won't. Cyno jammers are there to make sure someone busting caps in on you has to bring a conventional fleet first. A gang of 1 billion isk BS and recons isn't going to change that.

If they can get into cyno jammed systems it means they are mobile and dangerous, they still can't warp cloaked and they are still at risk[especially due to the speed nerf] when fights happen.

Fixing the problem with cloakers is pretty easy.

Just let probes scan down cloaking ships with 100% accuracy. Cloaked ships that can warp cloaked will never be caught. Since you will never land close enough to find you and you can warp out as soon as anything lands on grid with you. Cloaked ships that cannot warp cloaked can simply align and insta warp. Cloaked ships that aren't supposed to be fitting cloaks can be caught.

Add in a 5 minute rat aggression timer and have it so people don't show up in local until they uncloak after jumping through a gate and you've pretty much solved all the local/cloaking/ratting complaints right there.

[Pezzle]

The cost of those ships is irrelevant for the purposes of balance.  Cloaking ships are already mobile and dangerous. 

Even if you can probe out cloakers (I really do not see that ever happening at 100%) escape is easy.  Gangs of non cloakers can already bounce around various safes fast enough and avoid getting caught.  Warp to safe, align, when something shows up you warp.  Landing tackle on them fast enough is tough.  And if they realize you are good enough because you start catching them all you have to do is scout the next system, jump through and log off, or play warping games for a few minutes, THEN log off. 

It promotes those endless chase scenarios where lots of potential pvp can happen but you end up with boring ass nothing.

[Predator Irl]

Just let probes scan down cloaking ships with 100% accuracy.

I agree with this as long as its not a recon/covops/blackops. No point in having such a ship when it can be scanned down. But being able to cloak indefinitely in any non-covop ship is rediculous. Maybe adjusting cloaks on non-covert ships to be cap-intensive?

Add in a 5 minute rat aggression timer and have it so people don't show up in local until they uncloak after jumping through a gate and you've pretty much solved all the local/cloaking/ratting complaints right there.

You'd have all the ratters complaining they got jumped on before they had even seen anything in local.

I can sympathise with CCP in one sense, that no matter what changes they make they're going to take a roasting for it. They make changes because of so many people whining, then get roasted afterwards by the people that weren't.

[Slayerik]

Pez, overall you are too worried about 5 lifeless guys in cloaking ships. If they want to harass you, they will. Here's a hint...move. If they follow you around, rat in your alt somewhere.

Personally I think gangs of cloakers are completely homo but.....w/e. Adapt.

[Goumindong]

I agree with this as long as its not a recon/covops/blackops. No point in having such a ship when it can be scanned down.

Bullshit. If you don't want to be found, log off or keep moving. Its not like you're going to get anything dropped on you if you aren't an idiot when flying a ship designed to cloak.

You'd have all the ratters complaining they got jumped on before they had even seen anything in local.

I can sympathise with CCP in one sense, that no matter what changes they make they're going to take a roasting for it. They make changes because of so many people whining, then get roasted afterwards by the people that weren't.

No, you won't. They show up in local as soon as they uncloak, which means you still have as much time as it takes them to find you[except they get to rule out some belts near the jump in point] in order to get out.

[Pezzle]

Worried about it?  I hardly ever npc.  I want to KILL.  My frustration is not actually seeing this help fix any of the problems plaguing EVE PVP.  Ratting in an alt seems entirely contrary and in fact enforces my point :P

[Slayerik]

Worried about it?  I hardly ever npc.  I want to KILL.  My frustration is not actually seeing this help fix any of the problems plaguing EVE PVP.  Ratting in an alt seems entirely contrary and in fact enforces my point :P

Some people are into less risk, gay PVP with cloak ships. To each is own right, at least now you won't have to deal with the perma nano-faggotry after patch. Makes me sad to have spent a half a year on my minmatar stuff, but oh well.

[Predator Irl]

Bullshit. If you don't want to be found, log off or keep moving. Its not like you're going to get anything dropped on you if you aren't an idiot when flying a ship designed to cloak.

Even allowing to scan down cloakers isn't going to solve jack shit. All you'll get then is inties or whatever the fastest ship is burning afk. Still leaves the same problem. Cloakers arent the problem, AFKers are!

Only way to solve it would be for eve to log people out after an inactivity timer.

[Goumindong]

Bullshit. If you don't want to be found, log off or keep moving. Its not like you're going to get anything dropped on you if you aren't an idiot when flying a ship designed to cloak.

Even allowing to scan down cloakers isn't going to solve jack shit. All you'll get then is inties or whatever the fastest ship is burning afk. Still leaves the same problem.

Only way to solve it would be for eve to log people out after an inactivity timer.

Except that

1. You can catch AFK burning inties with other inties[oh hey, overloading in bursts will let you catch up].
2. You will know that AFK burning inties are burning inties.

It seriously would make a difference.

[Pezzle]

Some people are into less risk, gay PVP with cloak ships. To each is own right, at least now you won't have to deal with the perma nano-faggotry after patch. Makes me sad to have spent a half a year on my minmatar stuff, but oh well.

I agree.  The point is, I see no reason we should reward or encourage gay ultra low risk people and cyno in jammed systems does.  

As for nanofaggotry, we are premier deployers of Pulse Pocs.  A few are actually a bit sad seeing it go.  I am glad it is gone, but I do wish more focus was put on 0.0 sov holding and related issues building outward.  Instead we are adding more layers on damaged mechanics :/

[Gets]

Bullshit. If you don't want to be found, log off or keep moving. Its not like you're going to get anything dropped on you if you aren't an idiot when flying a ship designed to cloak.

That is not the fun way I'd like to play the game though. Less reasons to logoffski, please.

QFT on "more layers of damaged mechanics". I'd like to keep EvE simple, but there's an evident barrage from the odd desire to make EvE more and more hardcore. The game keeps getting holistically too complicating as individual features get "Yes, but..." changes.  Like if a system is cynojammed, let it be cynojammed, black ops or no black ops. Right now, the Black Ops battleships aren't completely useless, but they do have their very own niche. I do think they are underused, but lowering their cost might change that adequately or give them a few more cool uses, but nothing major. Reason being they have been used and used successfully at that ever since their inception. An example would be Star Fraction and their "Operation Fedaykin". A good read, especially for us with memories of Providence, even though it comes with a double Wall of Text warning (the thread and the person).

No, you won't. They show up in local as soon as they uncloak, which means you still have as much time as it takes them to find you[except they get to rule out some belts near the jump in point] in order to get out.

Should have to point out that they are considering to change Local, whether it's necessary at all. I wouldn't even bother since Local is such a concrete aspect of the game, but again someone might want to go through with it, and maybe it will rock some socks off. Your idea is feels too big of a change for not much gain in gameplay except having to readjust to how we pay attention in fights. Then you would have to put more priority into watching gatefires instead of Local spikes and that seems not much fun either, and not worth making every single player go through the adjustments.

If EvE would stop having Local, then I'd love to see a system wide information and communication network in its place. A window where the sovereign (0.0) or occupancy (low-sec) owners can put up messages and intel. NPC regions would have some NPC content in them to flesh out the factions, but even small groups - like BAT - within larger groups could put up welcome signs of their own. I think it would give a pretty good MUD flavor to it too. The info could be secure ("Two hostile Black Ops reported in system") and public ("This is Bat Country!")

1. You can catch AFK burning inties with other inties[oh hey, overloading in bursts will let you catch up].
2. You will know that AFK burning inties are burning inties.

It seriously would make a difference.

Unless that inty is giving new warp-ins to the rest of the fleet behind him who are not AFK and thus going to blow your inty up. This sort of reasoning can go on since it's on a chain of different variables of situations that can be. Plus I'd like to know how many people, at least in here, have Thermodynamics trained, since I for one don't.

[Goumindong]

That is not the fun way I'd like to play the game though. Less reasons to logoffski, please.

What? Look, its not a "reason to log off" you were going afk anyway right, you're not at the computer, you're doing something else. If you are at the computer you aren't going to get caught.

. Then you would have to put more priority into watching gatefires instead of Local spikes and that seems not much fun either, and not worth making every single player go through the adjustments.

What are you talking about? All my idea does is modify the amount of "jump" that players entering a system have against others. That jump is "the amount of time they are cloaked on a gate". You don't have to watch gate fires, you just have to be attentive to local. The issue is simply how attentive.

Unless that inty is giving new warp-ins to the rest of the fleet behind him who are not AFK and thus going to blow your inty up. This sort of reasoning can go on since it's on a chain of different variables of situations that can be. Plus I'd like to know how many people, at least in here, have Thermodynamics trained, since I for one don't.

1. You should train thermodynamics, its the single best skill for every ship in the game doing pretty much anything except PvE
2. If they're not AFK then yes they are going to be hard to catch. On the other hand, they're not AFK...

[Pezzle]

Sure, it can 'solve' the afk problem but it does not address the cloaking pvp avoidance problem.  Again, maybe that is human nature, but I get pretty tired of wasting my time chasing people around who do not want fights.  Sure we could ignore them, but then they drop in on someone and get kills (encouragement).  It is not what this game should be about.  Sadly I have not quite figured out the answer.

From my perspective saying 'whelp' and logging onto your alt points towards you being bored or something about EVE being broken.

[Goumindong]

Sure, it can 'solve' the afk problem but it does not address the cloaking pvp avoidance problem.  Again, maybe that is human nature, but I get pretty tired of wasting my time chasing people around who do not want fights.  Sure we could ignore them, but then they drop in on someone and get kills (encouragement).  It is not what this game should be about.  Sadly I have not quite figured out the answer.

From my perspective saying 'whelp' and logging onto your alt points towards you being bored or something about EVE being broken.

Cloaks are there to avoid conflict. Its the advantage they bring. You can't get rid of that combat avoidance unless you get rid of cloaking all together or make it obsolete.

[Slayerik]

I got an idea...Make stealth bombers have an ability to launch a 1 damage point Grid DD bomb. It wouldn't stop afkers or safespotted cloakerfags, but would make it possible to catch a ratter that got his cloak off before you arrived, but you have him zeroed in to that belt.

Would also be good for stopping horrible cloaked gate camping lame shit - which I have been seeing more and more lately. Sure, it would fuck up a lot of shit in current fleet warfare (recons/coverts watching POSes and shit) ... so its probably a bad idea but w/e.

[Pezzle]

I have no problem with cloaks on a non cloak ship causing serious serious problems for pvp ability.  I do not favor cloaking being obsolete entirely.  You are right, they are largely about avoidance.  As I said though, if the alternative is logging to an alt, something is wrong.

[Gets]

What are you talking about? All my idea does is modify the amount of "jump" that players entering a system have against others. That jump is "the amount of time they are cloaked on a gate". You don't have to watch gate fires, you just have to be attentive to local. The issue is simply how attentive.

What are you talking about  ? Sorry, I'm going to have to throw in my towel here, but my previous point about too much complexity for little gain remains. I see you want to make ratters more easily catchable, but there is a method of doing it with good probing skills, time and effort, and this would affect much more than catching ratters.

1. You should train thermodynamics, its the single best skill for every ship in the game doing pretty much anything except PvE

I know what I'm missing, don't get me wrong. But I took the EvE Personality Test lately and it said I'm more of an "industrialist with teeth" vOv

Cloaks are there to avoid conflict. Its the advantage they bring. You can't get rid of that combat avoidance unless you get rid of cloaking all together or make it obsolete.

You know how in real life fleets, the kind that sail on and underneath oceans and stuff, they can actively ping to locate where a silently running submarine is? Would be an idea to have a module that sends out a similar "active ping" Area of Effect, let's say within scanner range. It could decloak all ships (except gatecloaked ones, of course), but not to make them easily killable as active players can simply recloak up and move their position again, but to at least keep them on their toes. Coordinated you could help finding them off-grid if you do think they're not paying attention - ping, scan, drop probe, rinse & repeat? Alternatively you can make the AoE much smaller. This could make it a fun tactic where pinging ships fly around with escorts trying to locate them, harassing the harasser. Knowing where to look will still be based on the current visual method.

A 1 point bomb launched from a Stealth Bomber is also a good thought and doesn't even null my own. I really have flown my Nemesis only once and would like any opportunity to take her out more.

[Goumindong]

I got an idea...Make stealth bombers have an ability to launch a 1 damage point Grid DD bomb. It wouldn't stop afkers or safespotted cloakerfags, but would make it possible to catch a ratter that got his cloak off before you arrived, but you have him zeroed in to that belt.

Would also be good for stopping horrible cloaked gate camping lame shit - which I have been seeing more and more lately. Sure, it would fuck up a lot of shit in current fleet warfare (recons/coverts watching POSes and shit) ... so its probably a bad idea but w/e.

You are not uncloaked when you take damage from a DD or smartbomb.

What are you talking about  awesome, for real? Sorry, I'm going to have to throw in my towel here, but my previous point about too much complexity for little gain remains. I see you want to make ratters more easily catchable, but there is a method of doing it with good probing skills, time and effort, and this would affect much more than catching ratters.

1. This is a really fucking simple change
2. The intended effect is more than just catching ratters

I know what I'm missing, don't get me wrong. But I took the EvE Personality Test lately and it said I'm more of an "industrialist with teeth" vOv

Then you should train it.

You know how in real life fleets, the kind that sail on and underneath oceans and stuff, they can actively ping to locate where a silently running submarine is? Would be an idea to have a module that sends out a similar "active ping" Area of Effect, let's say within scanner range. It could decloak all ships (except gatecloaked ones, of course), but not to make them easily killable as active players can simply recloak up and move their position again, but to at least keep them on their toes. Coordinated you could help finding them off-grid if you do think they're not paying attention - ping, scan, drop probe, rinse & repeat? Alternatively you can make the AoE much smaller. This could make it a fun tactic where pinging ships fly around with escorts trying to locate them, harassing the harasser. Knowing where to look will still be based on the current visual method.

A 1 point bomb launched from a Stealth Bomber is also a good thought and doesn't even null my own. I really have flown my Nemesis only once and would like any opportunity to take her out more.

weren't you the one bitching about making things too complex?

[Gets]

It's just an idea, and I think a simple one. Why am I supposed to defend it all of a sudden? If CCP can add new ships they can easily add new modules or a new ability. Expanding the game is EVE's main goal afterall.

The idea of a black ops type harassing op is to get in, do your thing and get out. Right now the harassers can stick around, grab lunch and take bio breaks while the defenders need to be super attentive in hopes to catch one of them. Some may think that's the whole nature of such type of combat and that's probably a good point. Now if there would be a window of opportunity to prepare something to try and prevent the cloaking ninjas that would even things. Cloaking is a very nice concept, one that creates really fun ninja ops, so I hope the current ways of doing things don't get changed too much when fixing some of the issues mentioned, as it would jeopardize this aspect of the game.

If quoting upsets you in some way, Goumindong, then I'll stop. Like I said I gave up on the discussion of the point you were trying to make with the Local thing. You're free to call me thick for it. I'm just not the type of poster to wrap myself around such debates, sorry.

[MahrinSkel]

War is a continuation of economics by violent means.  There is a big divide in Eve between the alliances that understand this, and have lots of money that they use to seize, exploit, and protect resources that make them more money, and the ones that don't.  Black Ops is a tool for the rich, allowing strategic and tactical surprise at the risk of having capital ship level wealth wrapped in a comparatively fragile skin.  Those that understand how to exploit it are going to have a significant advantage over those that do not.

Now, there's always going to be "commerce raiding", where ships that can control their risk of engagement will be used to interdict the economic actions of enemies.  War is economics, if you can't touch the enemies source of strategic strength (literally his capital generation), it's nearly impossible to have decisive wars.  The question is mostly one of the comparative costs and risks.  When HAC's cost 300-500M, nano-HAC's were rarely used because the tradeoffs weren't there, the Invention revisions for bringing down the costs of T2 in general made it feasible to make them the backbone tool of commerce raiding (before that it was interceptor swarms).  Black Ops BS's have the potential for taking that role, trading strategic mobility and higher DPS for high expense.  As long as they stay expensive, and don't prove to be too tactically invulnerable, I don't really see a problem.

--Dave