Rogue Me!

[Morfiend]

So, with the utter crash of WAR, I have now fired up my WoW account and am trying to get back in to the swing of things. I was trying to decide on Rogue, Paladin or DK. But with everyone and their family playing DK thats probably out, and Paladins seem like the whipping boy right now, so I am going to play my original baby, my Rogue.

I went to respec, and wow. They totally changed the tress a LOT. I heard muti was good, so this is how I specced. A hybrid for PVP/PVE and leveling, what do you guys think?

Morv, Undead Rogue

Also, can anyone give me advice on what weapons to use. I currently have both Arena t2 Daggers, Malchazeen, and Trackers Blade. I heard Slow/Slow, but then other people said you want Slow/Fast. Currently using Arena MH and Trackers OH. I am not sure about Trackers Blade, it is the highest DPS dagger I have, but it is 1.5 speed, which makes it not fast or slow really.

Also, have much changed in the last year or so with gearing? I have 5/5 t5 and other t6 accessories.

Or Armory Profile.

Thanks for any advice guys.

[Oban]

Everything you ever wanted to know, but were afraid to ask:

http://shadowpanther.net/

[Hutch]

Something I just discovered last night, on my Rogue alt, is that Rogues don't have a poison skill anymore. They just go to the poison vendor and buy the poisons. No brewing or mixing.

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

I'm sure I'd have already known this, if I'd been paying attention to the rogue-specific spoilers and patch notes, but I wasn't.

I was a little disappointed. A little bit of complexity made the class more interesting (imo) than just stealth-stunlock-spike-rinse-repeat.

[Morfiend]

Everything you ever wanted to know, but were afraid to ask:

http://shadowpanther.net/

If I am reading that site correctly, Tracker's Blade is a pretty damn good Muti OH weapon.

[Nonentity]

Good 'ol Tichondrius.

Combat is really good for leveling and can do decent at PVP (just pick up the things like sprint breaking movement impairing effects), Mutilate requires a lot of good gear to be really useful, but it can put out a lot of damage, and Hemo is still a popular standby.

[Gobbeldygook]

So, with the utter crash of WAR, I have now fired up my WoW account and am trying to get back in to the swing of things. I was trying to decide on Rogue, Paladin or DK. But with everyone and their family playing DK thats probably out, and Paladins seem like the whipping boy right now, so I am going to play my original baby, my Rogue.

Rogue trees: >This< is currently the top DPS spec in the game (I think improved evis may fit in somehow, but I don't remember what you'd cut for that).  Don't let hunger for blood drop.  After a couple rounds of buffs, 5/51/5 is very close and will probably remain better for your typical rogue.  A lot of people will tell you "COMBAT IS SO FAR BEHIND GG BLIZZ".  They were right a few weeks ago, but are now wrong.  Combat swords plays the same as always: Spam SS, don't ever let SND drop, rupture > evis.  >This< is what combat swords looks like.  Cswords has some fudge; the points in endurance and imp sprint can be moved around.  Sub still sucks, but some people have convinced themselves it's good because honor among thieves generates lots of CP.

Itemization: Fast is better for muti because of Focused Attacks.  Unfortunately, fast MH daggers kind of don't exist.  Combat's still slow/fast.  17% total hit>>AP>>other stats for muti.  Combat's still combat.

Glyphs: Just hit the AH, you'll find them.  Mostly irrelevent for muti builds.

None of the above actually matters: Raiding anything less than sunwell will feel like a kara farm raid.  Seriously.  What you want to focus on is leveling.  Muti takes less damage while leveling.  Cheap shot->muti->kidney shot->muti->muti will be sufficient most mobs until at least the mid 70's.  Also works on other players.  Combat's probably the better overall leveling build; you take more damage from mobs, but you are much better equipped to deal with adds and soloing group quests.  Note that maintaining HFB when grinding quests will give you AIDS.

[Fordel]

I was a little disappointed. A little bit of complexity made the class more interesting (imo) than just stealth-stunlock-spike-rinse-repeat.

They didn't remove any functionality, just inventory management that was outdated and irrelevant.

[Phred]

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

Actually, when they made the change, all the vanishing powder left in your inventory had a tooltip that said it had been obsoleted by a more sophisticated substance. A handful of dirt.

[Morfiend]

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

Actually, when they made the change, all the vanishing powder left in your inventory had a tooltip that said it had been obsoleted by a more sophisticated substance. A handful of dirt.

Actually, I am pretty sure that was blinding powder, not flash powder.

[WindupAtheist]

My ret pally still feels better than at any point prior to 3.0, nerfs and all. Hopefully they FUCKING STOP NERFING right around now.

[ahoythematey]

Dude.  Paladins are fucking ridiculously overpowered right now.  They need a nerf.

[Gobbeldygook]

Dude.  Paladins are fucking ridiculously overpowered right now.  They needed a nerf.

FIFY.  They were overpowered to an offensive degree a few weeks ago, but the last round of nerfs finally made them stop being quite so offensive to my soul.  I didn't have serious issues with them as prot and I don't have serious issues with them now as arms.

Next up for the nerf bat are probably arcane mages.

[Phred]

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

Actually, when they made the change, all the vanishing powder left in your inventory had a tooltip that said it had been obsoleted by a more sophisticated substance. A handful of dirt.

Actually, I am pretty sure that was blinding powder, not flash powder.

Hmm. I guess you're right. Makes no sense as a vanishing powder does it? :)

[Azazel]

Something I just discovered last night, on my Rogue alt, is that Rogues don't have a poison skill anymore. They just go to the poison vendor and buy the poisons. No brewing or mixing.

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

I'm sure I'd have already known this, if I'd been paying attention to the rogue-specific spoilers and patch notes, but I wasn't.

I was a little disappointed. A little bit of complexity made the class more interesting (imo) than just stealth-stunlock-spike-rinse-repeat.

It was hardly complexity. It was just a matter of carrying extra shit around and remembering to stock it up (Flash pellets and blind powder).
The poisons was the same shit, just going to the vendor and choosing the same few reagents for the same few combines.

[Hutch]

Yes I know. God forbid that a rogue should have to carry a couple stacks of extra shit. My hunter and warlock were crying out fountains of sympathy tears.

I'm funny that way. I also bother to sneak up and pickpocket the humanoids. When I did this before 3.0, I'd occasionally get a box to practice lockpicking on. Those boxes dropped more poison mats and flash powder than I knew what to do with. But YMMV.

I did say that it was just "a little" complexity. I liked having the poison crafting window, and training the ranks, and all the other carebear shit. Like I said, it made the class more interesting. Rogues are fucking one-dimensional enough already.

I suppose I should just get used to it though. It's not like Rogue is the only class that got dumbed-down.

I was surprised I needed to keep my Thieves Tools. Next thing, Blizzard will be taking locked doors and chests out of the game. Too many rogues giving up because they can't stealth through the doors to get to the xp-bags on the other side.

[Fordel]

Blizzard *is* re-thinking shards and hunter ammo, since neither means anything but a wasted bag slot currently. 

[Azazel]

Yes I know. God forbid that a rogue should have to carry a couple stacks of extra shit. My hunter and warlock were crying out fountains of sympathy tears.

I'm funny that way. I also bother to sneak up and pickpocket the humanoids. When I did this before 3.0, I'd occasionally get a box to practice lockpicking on. Those boxes dropped more poison mats and flash powder than I knew what to do with. But YMMV.

I did say that it was just "a little" complexity. I liked having the poison crafting window, and training the ranks, and all the other carebear shit. Like I said, it made the class more interesting. Rogues are fucking one-dimensional enough already.

I suppose I should just get used to it though. It's not like Rogue is the only class that got dumbed-down.

I was surprised I needed to keep my Thieves Tools. Next thing, Blizzard will be taking locked doors and chests out of the game. Too many rogues giving up because they can't stealth through the doors to get to the xp-bags on the other side.

I polish my armour with your tears.
I have a Hunter and Lock as well, and ammo/SS shit me there as well. If they remove them in their current state I'll be much happier. Evem kaing SSs stack in 20s would work for me. After all, metal bars for smithing do.

Also a special congratulations for pickpocketing humanoid mobs. You're a special unique snowflake and I am sure no other rogue, EVAR, also did that. FWIW,  I never minded making my own poison, but I didn't view it as complexity or depth or anything like that, because it's about as deep and complex as a saucer of milk. Now I dont have to do it, no biggie.

Having a reverse-bitch about thieves tools? Stop fucking whining. Go play Vanguard. I hear it's more challenging and interesting than WoW.

[Ralence]

I was surprised I needed to keep my Thieves Tools.

Uh, you don't need thieves tools anymore.

[Azazel]

Didn't notice that, myself. Another useless bag slot clogger freed up! Because that's all they fucking are. They add neither complexity nor depth.

 

[AngryGumball]

Something I just discovered last night, on my Rogue alt, is that Rogues don't have a poison skill anymore. They just go to the poison vendor and buy the poisons. No brewing or mixing.

Also, rogues don't have to carry flash powder anymore. Vanish is apparently some kind of ninja magic skill now.

I'm sure I'd have already known this, if I'd been paying attention to the rogue-specific spoilers and patch notes, but I wasn't.

I was a little disappointed. A little bit of complexity made the class more interesting (imo) than just stealth-stunlock-spike-rinse-repeat.

Agree Fucking boring wow game give me a fucking server where you still have to actually work to use skills make items and be ready for raids.
but I'm saying this for all classes that are having buffs items removed. Just like no chugging potions anymore during raids.

Can they make WoW any easier for those who aren't diehard MMO'ers now.

[K9]

Just like no chugging potions anymore during raids.

Chugging mana pots on cooldown was both challenging and fun.

[Azazel]

Agree Fucking boring wow game give me a fucking server where you still have to actually work to use skills make items and be ready for raids.
but I'm saying this for all classes that are having buffs items removed. Just like no chugging potions anymore during raids.
Can they make WoW any easier for those who aren't diehard MMO'ers now.

You also seem to be making out like things in WoW like soulshards, poison making, the act of carrying thieves tools in a bag slot, flash powder, blind powder, chugging potions, etc was depth or fun.

WoW is EZMODE MMO and always has been. You seem to think that these little bits of crap that get polished off the edges actually add depth or content. Carrying a stack of arcane powder for my group Int buff or mage tables doesn't exactly "add to my immersion or challenge" when I play my mage.

If you're "challenged" by that kind of thing, well... I think that says more about you than it does about the rest of us. 

If you want to show how much a h4rdc0r3 MMO l33t you are, go play a proper grind game.

Here you go:
http://vanguard.station.sony.com/
http://everquest.station.sony.com/

Though, I fear that EQ1 has been made easier and greatly "dumbed down" from it's original days, and again greatly since WoW ate it's lunch. I'm sure there's still the opportunity to have nails pounded into your dick there though.

[Morfiend]

/boggle @ my thread's evolution.

[Mazakiel]

On the subject of fluff items we no longer have to have in bags, the totems you can buy with badge gear, and I assume the dungeon drop ones as well, count as the four basic elemental totems shamans used to have to lug around.  So, that's another item they consolidated out of the bag spaces. 

[AngryGumball]

Time use to be you pvp'ed a rogue and he used blind on you were made mentally aware that this might be a skilled player who did his homework or put the time into being a complete rogue who used all his skills available.(or as people who belittle the idea....grinded wasted time gathering regeants). Same with actually spending the time to raise your poison skill at least you knew that person spent the time doing it and you could add that as a reason that person might actually know how to play his class correctly. I call that Depth to the game if that fucking rogue spent time gathering his fucking fadeleaf to fucking blind my ass and then pvp down that other partner I'm with while I cannot heal him and then respect him more instead of realizing its standard procedure to get it freely when it wasn't before. Bitch rogue didn't have his fadeleaf bitch wasn't biting off more than he could chew.

Intead of zomg I pressed Cloak of Skill button now I'm powerful and unkillable. Similiar idea great we don't all have this stuff to lug around now I have so much more room that I don't  have to mentally manage my bag spots and I can carry more grey vendor trash to sell. Great I'm happy for you, this shit just isn't the same as it was.


Listen I'm fine if they want to do this, my point is you had it in the game at one point and it was there for a reason, even a choice to be made if you did not have enough bag space. Stop shoving it down everyones fucking throat that this is now standard gameplay respect the ways that were before and give us fucking multiple rule set servers. Oh wait....did I just ask for a fucking Felluca or Pre-BC server so I can fucking 40 man MC at lvl 60 again?

[WindupAtheist]

You're all kinds of retarded.

[Fordel]

Time use to be you pvp'ed a rogue and he used blind on you were made mentally aware that this might be a skilled player who did his homework or put the time into being a complete rogue who used all his skills available.

No, it never actually meant that. No more then someone training up their 1h axe skill when they got a new weapon.

[Zetor]

There isn't a  big enough for this thread.

Time use to be you pvp'ed a rogue and he used blind on you were made mentally aware that this might be a skilled player who did his homework or put the time into being a complete rogue who used all his skills available.

Yeah, I remember the times when the game was laughably unbalanced in pvp (not that it's balanced now, but eh), when turning with the mouse and using keybinds put you above 90% of the WOW pvp population, and when someone in pve epics could effortlessly steamroll 3-4 undergeared opponents at the same time (yes, you can sort-of do that still, but it requires pvp epics and is a lot harder to pull off).

Realizing that shit is broken and fixing it doesn't "dumb a game down".


-- Z.

[AngryGumball]

So 3 responses quoting me.

WUA resorts to namecalling when he disagrees.
Second guy relates an unrelatable comparison with no meaning to what I spoke of. But gratz you disagreed without namecalling. I question this person even played Pre-BC.
Third person blathers on about any situation in any MMO but never again directly discusses or clearly disagrees with what I said. Again Suspect on whether played Pre-BC.


never be confused that this forum is any better than General Discussion WoW Forums.

You dislike when someone takes a stand and states an opinion you call said person names, and never address the topic you disagree with in a clear manner.

[Koyasha]

You're confusing annoyances and time spent with difficulty.  There was a time when I confused annoyance with difficulty myself.  That's why I'll put effort into explaining the difference.

Difficulty is good.  When something is genuinely difficult, requires effort or intelligent decision-making.

Annoyances are things that aren't actually challenging to do, take little to no thought, and merely serve to force the player to take an extra, but ultimately pointless step in order to achieve their goals.

I am in favor of things being difficult, and don't like things being dumbed down.  I am opposed to annoyances, however.  Removing the reagent for blind is a good thing, because it was merely an annoyance.  It simply meant that for each time I wanted to blind, I would be forced to either gather more fadeleaf or pay high prices at the AH for it.  There's no challenge associated with either of those prerequisites, merely a decision of whether I want to spend X amount of extra time gathering either gold or fadeleaf.  This doesn't make me a better player, it just means some of my playtime has to be used for mundane resource-gathering tasks.  The same applies to making poisons.

Speaking of poisons however, the decision of which poison to use in what situation is one of those things that requires intelligent decision-making.  If they were to, say, introduce a single poison that had the combined effects of all poisons, that would be a bad thing, since there is an actual decision involved in which poisons to use, beyond that of 'do I want to spend another few minutes gathering resources'.

Is it true that in the past a skilled and intelligent rogue would have reagents and poisons ready for whatever situation comes up?  Yes.  However, the removal of those requirements doesn't make him any less skilled, nor does it impart skills to the less skilled rogues that didn't used to be bothered.  It does mean that the more skilled rogue has more time to play as he wants, instead of being forced to gather a little extra cash, or go hunt his own reagents.

As for mentally managing the inventory goes, WoW's inventory is on the 'unrealistic' side, which as far as I'm concerned means it should allow infinite inventory capacity, period.  A very true quote from Westley Weimer's Ease of Use mod for Baldur's Gate II says it all: "This game should not be a quest for inventory management."

[Ironwood]

Excellent post, except for the fact that this kinda thing nerfed my Poisoning talents in the Assasin tree.

 

[Hawkbit]

never be confused that this forum is any better than General Discussion WoW Forums.

lolwut?

[Azazel]

Time use to be you pvp'ed a rogue and he used blind on you were made mentally aware that this might be a skilled player who did his homework or put the time into being a complete rogue who used all his skills available.(or as people who belittle the idea....grinded wasted time gathering regeants). Same with actually spending the time to raise your poison skill at least you knew that person spent the time doing it and you could add that as a reason that person might actually know how to play his class correctly. I call that Depth to the game if that fucking rogue spent time gathering his fucking fadeleaf to fucking blind my ass and then pvp down that other partner I'm with while I cannot heal him and then respect him more instead of realizing its standard procedure to get it freely when it wasn't before. Bitch rogue didn't have his fadeleaf bitch wasn't biting off more than he could chew.

Intead of zomg I pressed Cloak of Skill button now I'm powerful and unkillable. Similiar idea great we don't all have this stuff to lug around now I have so much more room that I don't  have to mentally manage my bag spots and I can carry more grey vendor trash to sell. Great I'm happy for you, this shit just isn't the same as it was.

Listen I'm fine if they want to do this, my point is you had it in the game at one point and it was there for a reason, even a choice to be made if you did not have enough bag space. Stop shoving it down everyones fucking throat that this is now standard gameplay respect the ways that were before and give us fucking multiple rule set servers. Oh wait....did I just ask for a fucking Felluca or Pre-BC server so I can fucking 40 man MC at lvl 60 again?

I used blind whenever needed, I had my poison making skill maxed, and carry several kinds of poisons (I was sad they rmeoved crippling II and made it into an effect actually). My rogue is also a GM Engineer so I have even more situational crap I carry around. Not needing to have primal moonclloth bag slots to carry arouind extra garbage doesn't make me any more or less of a skilled or unskilled player than I was before.

By your logic, the removal of bag slots to carry PVP tokens means players are now less skilled at PVP than they were pre-patch. Heroic/Kara/Etc runners are now less skilled because their Kara badges no longer take up bank space. And let's not forget how much less "skill" it takes to have a decent collection of non-combat pets or mounts!

Let's face it, you're simply being Stupid. Or Retarded. Or you're a Pound-nails-into-your-own-dick, old-school-masochist. Pick one, I don't much care.

Eiither way, you're confusing useless bullshit for skill. Go play fucking Everquest1, roll a Monk, and camp Raster. That'll show everyone how "skilled" you are. See if you can find an emu server with the old-school weight limits, though.

[Xanthippe]

I was a little disappointed. A little bit of complexity made the class more interesting (imo) than just stealth-stunlock-spike-rinse-repeat.

They didn't remove any functionality, just inventory management that was outdated and irrelevant.

Why didn't they do this for hunters and warlocks?

Edited:  I should read the rest of the thread before responding.

[Hutch]

Yes I know. God forbid that a rogue should have to carry a couple stacks of extra shit. My hunter and warlock were crying out fountains of sympathy tears.

I'm funny that way. I also bother to sneak up and pickpocket the humanoids. When I did this before 3.0, I'd occasionally get a box to practice lockpicking on. Those boxes dropped more poison mats and flash powder than I knew what to do with. But YMMV.

I did say that it was just "a little" complexity. I liked having the poison crafting window, and training the ranks, and all the other carebear shit. Like I said, it made the class more interesting. Rogues are fucking one-dimensional enough already.

I suppose I should just get used to it though. It's not like Rogue is the only class that got dumbed-down.

I was surprised I needed to keep my Thieves Tools. Next thing, Blizzard will be taking locked doors and chests out of the game. Too many rogues giving up because they can't stealth through the doors to get to the xp-bags on the other side.

I polish my armour with your tears.
I have a Hunter and Lock as well, and ammo/SS shit me there as well. If they remove them in their current state I'll be much happier. Evem kaing SSs stack in 20s would work for me. After all, metal bars for smithing do.

Also a special congratulations for pickpocketing humanoid mobs. You're a special unique snowflake and I am sure no other rogue, EVAR, also did that. FWIW,  I never minded making my own poison, but I didn't view it as complexity or depth or anything like that, because it's about as deep and complex as a saucer of milk. Now I dont have to do it, no biggie.

Having a reverse-bitch about thieves tools? Stop fucking whining. Go play Vanguard. I hear it's more challenging and interesting than WoW.

I said I was disappointed that they dumbed down the class, then you jumped in my face. Good trolling, douchebag, you got me to overreact on the internet. Enjoy your cookie.

I was wrong about the thieves tools, too. That figures. Well, that frees up another slot. I'll be sure to fill it up with QQ. Will you trade that pic of the violin for a stack of tears? Now that I've given you a chance to use it, maybe you won't need it anymore. Just saying.