The Telling Barrier

[HaemishM]

I TOLD you so.

[WayAbvPar]

I think the worst chat window I have used recently was Guild Wars. It eventually became easier to post messages to friends/guildies (a great addition that other games should use, btw) instead of praying that they see my tell in their chat window.

I like the idea of a popup, but only if A) it is something small and unobstrusive (use pop up ads for reference and do the exact opposite), and B) it isn't griefable by sending dozens of tells to people at the same time to clutter up their screen. I would like to see some sort of automated chat log as well- any tells my character sends or receives are archived for the session so I can get back to people if I get distracted.

There also MUST be some sort of hotkey reply functionality (in addtion to the ability to click the name of anyone in your chat box to send a PM).

Voice comms are great for small stuff (like guilds, or Xbox games, etc), but are problematic for large scale stuff. Plus it is easier to ignore annoying fucktards by not reading chat than to stop listening to them mouth-breathing into their microphone.

[El Gallo]

Everquest (1) has had the option of tells popping up in their own windows for a good while now, I found it kind of annoying.  In EQ and WoW, I just set aside a seperate chat window that is only for tells.  Though creating new windows and setting up different filters for each is a bit newb-unfriendly.

I've mentioned this before, but I don't have high hopes for real voice communication, because I like my MMOGs massive, and even a 6 person conference call is a pain in the ass sometimes.  What I would like to see is voice-to-text translators that actually work.  Since the new rage in MMOGs is "the faster you push a button, the better the gameplay" (see CoH, WoW), it is harder and harder to chat with my fingers.

[MrHat]

I think a pop up like the one MSN has would be ok.  For instance, my dad send me a tell, a little square box saying "Dad says "Hi Andy." pops up in the bottom right corner of my computer.  It's just big enough to read what was said.  If you click on it you reply, and if you leave it alone, it goes away after a few seconds.  An archive system that archives all your tells until you can get to them would be great too.  If you leave the tell alone and it goes away, maybe it goes away to your Tell List, that you can get to later.

I've mentioned this before, but I don't have high hopes for real voice communication, because I like my MMOGs massive, and even a 6 person conference call is a pain in the ass sometimes.  What I would like to see is voice-to-text translators that actually work.  Since the new rage in MMOGs is "the faster you push a button, the better the gameplay" (see CoH, WoW), it is harder and harder to chat with my fingers.

I really think voice comms for group only would be a big deal.  A little speaker or comic box appears above your toons head, near your group representation in the group window that shows that you're talking, and you just talk away.  I would LOVE to be able to just chat with my group as opposed to typing things that come out incoherent because I'm trying to type so darn fast.  In WoW I would love it if there was voice comms for a 5 person group.  With voice masking so that the orc and troll I grouped up with still sound like an orc and troll.

Voice-to-text would be gravy too.  Maybe a voice-to-text that would then convert text-to-noise where the noise was a voice you picked out ala Baldur's Gate.

As for voice comms taking up too much bandwidth.  Couldn't a company just set up an entirely seperate server that opens a new channel (like Ventrilo) for each group with 2+ people formed?  Then close them when the group is closed?

[Furiously]

I'm in agreement, voice to filtered voice would be the most idealic, I don't want to hear Bob the 45year smoker hacking away, I want to hear Candi the woodelf.

Technology isnt there, so I would settle for bob for the next couple of years and just giggle.

[Viin]

I really don't understand why people think voice chat has to be "in character". It doesn't! Leave text chat for IC stuff, there's no problem with recognizing voice chat as OOC.

For those of you who don't want people to hear your 12yo little-boy voice, the Xbox live service does have ways to disguise your voice. I noticed Project Gotham 2 had about 6 "modes" you could use to disguise your voice. No, you can't go from a deep bass male to a high tenor female, but again: voice chat is ooc, it doesn't matter!

Honestly, if someone made the mechanic where your party/group/whatever was automatically all on the same voice chat channel that would be AWESOME. Heck, Counterstrike does this already, and it kicks ass. Even if you don't have a mic it helps a ton to hear your teammates talking.  A perfect candidate for this implementation: Guild Wars

I hate trying to type while moving around in the game world, but talking and manipulating your character would make it a whole lot more fun - especially during travel. Obviously, this wouldn't work for global channels, which is why I advocate group-only voice chat with the ability to hop onto the guild voice chat channel.

We've been discussing voice chat on Mud-Dev recently, you can read the thread here. However, it seems most of the people involved in the discussion have a) never used voice chat in a game, or b) never played an online game other than UO, or c) only read/write email with their computers.

Honestly, for good voice chat implementations, look at the non-MMO online games. (Tribes, Counter Strike, Natural Selection, etc).

[sidereal]

The noise pollution of 25 jackasses speaking simultaneously in a Dr Sbaitso voice would be inconceivably horrible.

The best TTS out there uses recorded triphones (every possible unique combination of three phonemes), which takes a few hundred megs of disk space per voice font.

And it still sounds not-great.  http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts/demo.html">Here's AT&T triphone TTS setup

[Viin]

Oh, and the whole 'voice chat takes too much bandwidth' thingy:

Baloney. Again, look to programs that _already do this well_. Aka: Teamspeak, Ventrilo, Roger Wilco. How do they do it? There are 3rd parties out there that host these server programs: it doesn't kill their bandwidth and they've got tons of people on their servers.

From the Ventrilo homepage page:
Bandwidth usage is determined by the codec and is dictated by the server. It could be as low as 600 bytes/sec or as high as 8000 bytes/sec per voice stream.

Since only one person at a time normally talks, it's really not that much per party.

You could also go the other route and implement peer-to-peer voice chat  instead, putting all the bandwidth on the players. With a multicast implemenation it wouldn't take anymore bandwidth for the broadcaster than normal.

[MrHat]

For those of you who don't want people to hear your 12yo little-boy voice, the Xbox live service does have ways to disguise your voice. I noticed Project Gotham 2 had about 6 "modes" you could use to disguise your voice. No, you can't go from a deep bass male to a high tenor female, but again: voice chat is ooc, it doesn't matter!

I don't think my voice is a problem.  I don't want to be subjected to Mr. John Junior's 12-year old voice blasting in.  Mask IT for me.

[Draive]

trivial.

[chinslim]

I think someone is going to generate alot of hits by coming by coming up with an MMO "matchmaking" website.

In-game tools never seem to work right.

[Krakrok]

Planetside has built in squad based teamspeak.

Time of Defiance has optional Text-To-Speech for user definable text notifications. TTS is built into XP/2k. ME/98 users have to download a the lib from Microsoft. Implimenting TTS is as simple as a few 10s of lines of code.

Realtime voice processing is not that tough folks. Simply changing the pitch can turn Britney Spears into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

ICQ style IMing has been around since ~1997. Putting "tells" in seperate windows and having a friends list isn't that hard folks.

Interesting way that my phone handles IMs is that if I'm in the web browser application and I get an IM it puts it in the top right corner of the screen in a scrolling marquee. Once it scrolls by it disappears and you can switch over to the IM app to read it again or reply.


And lastly there really is no reason MMOs can't interface with the common IM protocols (SMS, ICQ, AIM, MSN, or even Skype, etc.) and allow you to send and receive messages from any IM network inside the MMO client. There are libraries out there that handle it already and all you have to do is jack them in to your own application.

[WonderBrick]

Halo 2 has what potentially could be the next big thing in MMOGs.  It has proximity voice chat.  You can hear people talking to you that are near you, friend or foe, and it will fade away as they get further away from you.

Add a few RP-ish voice modulators, and you could get something acceptable in a MMORPG.

Second Life has the ability to IM people, which in turn can convert into email and email them outside the game.  Their return email can then convert back into a ingame message.  you can also directly stream Internet radio stations directly into the game, including letting your friends listen to them.

Darkfall talked about support for guildmasters to contact guildmembers thorugh IM, email, page, landline, or PCS for emergency rallying of the troops.

These are all concepts that are long overdue in the MMOG industry.

[MrHat]

Halo 2 has what potentially could be the next big thing in MMOGs.  It has proximity voice chat.  You can hear people talking to you that are near you, friend or foe, and it will fade away as they get further away from you.

I think this would be great, but not for group chat.  Group chat should be global.  Proximity chat could be for your typical /say channel.  You have to remember the stupidity of the people in this genre.  You will most likely have someone chasing you around playing Reba McEntire right into your personal bubble when the action isn't intense enough to warrant immeadiate attention.

[Alkiera]

Halo 2 has what potentially could be the next big thing in MMOGs.  It has proximity voice chat.  You can hear people talking to you that are near you, friend or foe, and it will fade away as they get further away from you.

I think this would be great, but not for group chat.  Group chat should be global.  Proximity chat could be for your typical /say channel.  You have to remember the stupidity of the people in this genre.  You will most likely have someone chasing you around playing Reba McEntire right into your personal bubble when the action isn't intense enough to warrant immeadiate attention.

Or the retard playing 'Achey Breaky Heart'  at 8 million decibels where newbs spawn, or in the graveyard where you show up after death, etc.

Voicechat for groups is probably the best idea yet.  Especially if the same can be done for raids, with the same controls that modern raid interfaces alow for use of the raid channel (leader only, group leaders+raid leader only, etc).

I agree on GW... the chat interface is Horrid.  Worst ChatBox Evar.  

Alkiera

[ajax34i]

I beg to differ, Haemish.

Do this experiment:  turn on a radio with a talk show on or something, and then play a game that requires your concentration, and you'll see that you cannot remember what was said on the radio.  The truth is that our attention is selective to the point that we tune out everything not important, and that is not limited to text.

The problem with the text chatbox is not that it's too small or out of the way, it's that chatter and socializing will be tuned out during combat.  But the same thing will happen with voice-based chat, if you use it to chat (and not to deliver combat messages).  Your ears will tune the chatter out as soon as you enter combat.

The problem is not caused by the method of communication, it's caused by the content.

[Alkiera]

Do this experiment:  turn on a radio with a talk show on or something, and then play a game that requires your concentration, and you'll see that you cannot remember what was said on the radio.  The truth is that our attention is selective to the point that we tune out everything not important, and that is not limited to text.

I've done this, as there are certain mid-day talk radio shows that I enjoy listening to.  Generally, either I am heavily watching the game, and can't hear what is on the radio, or I'm doing something rather dull, travel, WoW crafting + lag, etc, and I can heard the radio.

I think, however, that voice-chat, at least for groups, would be relevent enough to have your attention.  Even if it was just random what they did at work today/dinner plans/weather kinda conversation.  The source of the voices is the game, so you'll hear it, even if you are fighting 'a large badger' in Antonica at the time.

Alkiera

[Raph]

There.com has had proximity-based voice chat for two years. The % of people using it dwindled over time... unsure why. It did require broadband.

I think comparisons to games like SOCOM arent really valid--you're not really constructing an alternate identity in any of those games. Simpyl saying "it's OOC, it doesn't matter" doesn't do the trick.

I am a huge fan of getting rid of the chat box, cf the bubbles in SWG and also adopted in EQ2. There was a lot of resistance to having them at first, but I think they have proven themselves out... but we never did solve the problem of "tell bubbles"--it doesn't seem like it would be that hard, though... pop up a bubble with the avatar head of the person sending you the tell, up in a corner or something. Use a different bubble style, something that suggests telepathy or radio...

[Viin]

If you promote voice chat as a group organization tool and not as your character's voice to the world I don't think many people will believe it's anything other than OOC.

Not that anyone is in character anyways, but I certainly don't see people acting IC in groupchat. Yes, people act IC to the spatial world, but I think most people don't have a problem (or care) if everything else is OOC.  The only place I can see an issue with this is on an RP server, but they can use text chat until we have the (much over rated) ability to mask our voice to fit the character.

Besides, if it's really _that_ immersion breaking (I still say it's not), then let the user turn it off. If you are that concerned with it breaking immersion you could turn it off by default and let the user choose to experiment with it as they see fit.

Heck, people playing D&D and LARP don't seem to have a problem with this whole new fangled "voice chat" thing breaking immersion.

As far as the 12yo voice thing goes, it wouldn't  be very hard to have your program distort voices locally based on the characters race and sex. Having your soundcard handle this is probably the best way to go, rather than the talker's computer distorting it before broadcasting.

EDIT: Oh and as for SOCOM, how many 12yo's do you know that are snipers in the Army?

[HaemishM]

After years in MMOG's, I don't think the IC/OOC discussion has any merit anymore. MUD's and small population servers have Role-playing. MMOG's do not and I don't think they ever will, because there just really aren't that many people who can or will carry it off. Maybe in about 10 years, as more people come into MMOG's and they start being more niche as opposed to more mass market. The mass market isn't going to roleplay. They lack the skills and the desire. I don't say that as a bad thing, that's just the way it is.

I like the voice font idea simply because it adds interesting content to the world without really requiring people to roleplay. Again, my ideas were very minor, because I know they can be done. Raph has a point with the chat bubbles. Once I saw chat in Shadowbane, I've just preferred chat to appear above the person saying it, such as in SWG, CoH, or EQ. I think that really should be applied to /tell conversation.

I think the biggest barrier to voice chat as a separate server is the cost; these things already cost so bloody much, trying to sneak in a third server per server cluster for something not everyone will use could be hard to justify.

[Velorath]

I think I'd prerfer voice chat over text if only because I'm completely unable to type and do anything else at the same time.  It's hard for me to be social in MMORPG's, especially if I'm in group that's doing a lot of combat.  If chating with my group members takes even a few seconds away from doing what I'm supposed to be doing in a group then I tend to remain silent.  This was especially true in CoH where things were pretty fast paced, as well as RVR in DAOC where I didn't want to be in the middle of typing a sentance if got we ambushed.

[MrHat]

As far as the 12yo voice thing goes, it wouldn't  be very hard to have your program distort voices locally based on the characters race and sex. Having your soundcard handle this is probably the best way to go, rather than the talker's computer distorting it before broadcasting.

That would be a lot simpler than my suggestion.  I was discussion this with my girlfriend, or at my girlfriend since she was obviously uninterested, and she told me that why don't you just force people to choose a voice mask based on what race they have.  And just give them a few options "sexy orc, angry orc, old orc, 12yo orc".   I never connected the dots because voice masking has always been an option in games I've seen, not a requirement.

[Wukong]

I think the lack of social hooks in newer mmogs has more to do with a the jaded player base than any feature of the games themselves. People are more likely to form new social bonds when confronted with novel situations than they are in familiar circumstances. In the salad days of UO and EQ, everyone was a newbie, everyone was like a freshman looking for a table to sit at in the cafeteria. Now most players are savvy seniors that bring their own lunch, and any true newbie is treated like a transfer student.

As for the voice vs text discussion, it reminds me of the dub vs sub debate in anime. I used to prefer dubs because I'd rather keep my eyes on the art and action than on the bottom of the screen, much like Haemish would rather watch his character than the chat box. Lately I've come to prefer subs however. I find that the act of reading in and of itself makes the experience more engrossing and evocative. There is something special about the way our minds decipher text that makes it more immersive than other stimuli, pipe dreams like voice fonts notwithstanding.

[HaemishM]

As for anime subs vs dubs (not to derail too far), I think the problem with most anime dubs is the voice acting blows monkeys, not to mention that the translations in dubs are generally dubious at best. I don't think reading makes it any more or less engrossing; it just depends on the text being presented.

[WonderBrick]

The chat window interface is another large deterrent for me in most MMOGs.  The only exception is Planetside, where the chat window *kinda* fits the enviroment.  Keeping some semblence of immersion/mythology is important in a MMORPG, but the Sci-fi/MMOFPSs have a be more wiggle room in my mind.

On top of all of this, I am a bad typist, having to look at the keyboard when I type.  I can type fast, and often I catch myself not looking at the keyboard, but I am conditioned to look at the keyboard most of the time.  In any pvp situation, it is certain death.  In any group situation, it leads to quick frustration and extremely high stress.  As a side effect, I favor solo play among strangers.  Among friends, I favor voice chat, because they are people that I can persuade and show the benefits of voice chat.  I would readily be more social(yet still private) among strangers, if voice was a option for the masses.

Voice chat would/is certainly no detraction from the game itself.  Infact, it enhances it in ways that no other approach can.  Especially in pvp or large organized group efforts.  Integrated voice-chat support would overcome one feature(chat windows) that help drive me away many games.



As a side note, I would like to see more MMOGs embrace the preset hot-key voice macro menu approach, like most team FPSs have.  (press 1 for Aggressive commands, 2 for Defensive commands, etc.  In the submenu, press 6 for "Heal me now!", press 4 for "I need a Rez", etc.  This services dialup, unsavy/unwilling voice chat players, or those that play from work.  ;)  )

[Arnold]

And lastly there really is no reason MMOs can't interface with the common IM protocols (SMS, ICQ, AIM, MSN, or even Skype, etc.) and allow you to send and receive messages from any IM network inside the MMO client. There are libraries out there that handle it already and all you have to do is jack them in to your own application.

Last time I played Asheron's Call, they had a plugin that allowed you to pipe IRC right into your game client.  Was nice being able to talk to my friends who didn't play AC, but were in the guild channel, without having to alt-tab.

If they had that, they probably had some IM plugin as well.

[chinslim]

UO's pre-xpack chat system was the best ever - predating SWG's bubble system.  

Nothing beat stuff like hidden text macros to disguise spellcasting, targetting a hidden person using his chat text, and guild/server communication via IRC.     The best PvPers could somehow taunt and mock away while fighting 2+ players.  Nothing has bested UO's font as well.  Nothing can quite compare to having someone heckling/trolling you just outside your view proximity.

It all went out the window in the first x-pack when they built in a chat interface, starting a nasty trend ever since.

[Rasix]

UO's pre-xpack chat system was the best ever - predating SWG's bubble system.  

Nothing beat stuff like hidden text macros to disguise spellcasting, targetting a hidden person using his chat text, and guild/server communication via IRC.     The best PvPers could somehow taunt and mock away while fighting 2+ players.  Nothing has bested UO's font as well.  Nothing can quite compare to having someone heckling/trolling you just outside your view proximity.

It all went out the window in the first x-pack when they built in a chat interface, starting a nasty trend ever since.

You sound like someone waxing nostalgic about the goddamned telegraph.  Somtimes progress is just exactly that: progress. I'll never again have to deal with that spaghetti mess of communication that was UO and am I happy.  

Really, all of this "UO WAS THE BESTEST" reminiscing crap makes me want to kick baby penguins. Next thing someone will proclaim, "snooping someone's backpack to make myself unKOS to the guards was teh coolest.  BRING BACK RAMPANT EXPLOITING, BIOTCH!"

[schild]

Really, all of this "UO WAS THE BESTEST" reminiscing crap makes me want to kick baby penguins.

Please, don't.

[chinslim]

I'll never again have to deal with that spaghetti mess of communication that was UO and am I happy.

I think it was anything but a mess of spaghetti.  Worst it got was in huge  crowds, but at the same time it made it seem like you were in a boisterous noisy crowd.

That simpler is better is my point(and that even bad features can be reminisced upon).

[AOFanboi]

Once they had the bugs ironed out, the new chat window system in AO is great to use. E.g. is someone chats with you, and it gets hard to follow up because of lots of other messages, just click the name and a separate window for the conversation pops up, including whatever has been said so far. Also for other chat windows, clicking the channel name (e.g. Clan OOC) switches the chat window to use that channel as the destination, much like the switching in WoW (e.g. using /p to tell the party will "switch" the default to party until you use /say to get vicinity chat).

Just because some games do chat badly doesn't mean it can't be done better.

[Resvrgam]

As a side note, I would like to see more MMOGs embrace the preset hot-key voice macro menu approach, like most team FPSs have.  (press 1 for Aggressive commands, 2 for Defensive commands, etc.  In the submenu, press 6 for "Heal me now!", press 4 for "I need a Rez", etc.  This services dialup, unsavy/unwilling voice chat players, or those that play from work.  ;)  )

I'm a full supporter of this feature.  Since games are becoming more player reaction-based, the line between FPS, Action game and MMOG will become obscured even more as time passes on and, for those of us still mastering the "Hunt & Peck" techniques, a hotkey system of audio emotes, commands, sayings & acknowledgements would do wonders (I suggested this in a VERY old LevelQuest 2 Fanboy-Forum thread and it was met with mixed results however).  

NWN had an interesting "Pick your avatar's voice" option that really impressed me (that was about the only thing that impressed me about that game).  I'd love to be able to assume race-based voice options: "Grizzled human male veteran", "Naive female youth", "Gruff Dwarf (complete with Scottish accent)", "Hate-filled Drow-elf", "Kindly/Befuddled old man" , etc etc etc.

Simple chat macros of audible "Commands", "Acknowledgements", "Sayings" & "Emotes" would really free up my hands to be able to attend the game control without sacrificing any social opportunities.  Of course this would also mean that certain measures would be needed to avoid audio-spam as well (time limits, obvious separations in channels, disabling, proximity limitations or something).

I think the immersive possibilities could be broadened with action-packed battles raging and actually hearing commanders bellowing out in voice-acted sequences instead of reading it.  The possibilities for annoyances would be many but, with the proper precautions in place, they could be avoided.

[Shannow]

snort, noobs. Try coordinating 100 ppl on an attack with a chat system where your only organisational tool 'IS TO TALK IN CAPS'.

Now that the devs of ww2ol have kindly made it so the defenders know where every attack is coming the need for organizational tools are even greater but instead they added the ability to hear garbled text from enemy players when they type too close..yay.

Nevermind me getting all ranty and crap but no one should complain until you've played a game that so desprately depends on teamwork and communication and gives you the crappiest chat system ever.

Now please return to your scheduled programming.

[HaemishM]

snort, noobs. Try coordinating 100 ppl on an attack with a chat system where your only organisational tool 'IS TO TALK IN CAPS'.

Been there, mofo. Try running a Vox raid in Everquest pre-Velious; not just that, but make sure the raid isn't a guild-only raid, one-step removed from a come-one-come-all raid. I ended up without about 60 people on the raid, from 15 different guilds, and this was in the days before you could even create your own chat channel. All I had was /shout in all caps just to make myself "heard."

I ain't pining for those fjords. Nothing like making you pull your hair out like screaming over and over again 'DON'T GO UP THIS RAMP OR THIS RAMP OR YOU WILL FALL INTO THE PITS AND DIE' only to see one lone ranger do JUST THAT. Then have to deal with bitching from that player and his guild because he missed the raid when I wouldn't send someone down to drag his body, in the days before Necro corpse summoning was a common occurrence. I have been to hell, and it is that.

[Shannow]

I see your raid and raise you a St. Truiden attack.  2 BEF divisions, 20+ squads, 4 chat channels , 3 TS channels, 3 different languages , 4 dialects and New Zealanders...:P

Nothing like making you pull your hair out like screaming over and over again 'DON'T GO UP THIS RAMP OR THIS RAMP OR YOU WILL FALL INTO THE PITS AND DIE' only to see one lone ranger do JUST THAT

hah just one? Try telling that to your truck driver with 12 inf on him that there is a PZ watching this road and its already killed 10 stupid ppl before him. Theres nothing like being at the mercy of clueless truck drivers.

Anyways, Im of the opinion that if the game doesn't require you to socialize to play then a lot of people never will no matter what chat hooks you put into it. While I know everyone hates forced grouping I see these MMOGs moving further along the slippery slope of catering to the solo player which eventually will lead to their own self destruction. Not that Im upset about that.