CS Grad School Advice

[Teleku]

So, I'm starting to think I'm not quite ready for the real world, and might need to flee back to the warm embrace of Academia for awhile  .

But seriously, I'm thinking of going to Grad School since there's more I want to learn, and it hard to make time to study when your working full time.  Also, with this economy, anything that helps my resume get looked at can't hurt, heh.

But in any event, I'm thinking for going for a graduate degree in CS.  However, what I'm MAINLY interested in right now is web app development type stuff.  Theres just a lot of cool stuff coming out now, and I'd like to get in on it.  Just so many possibilities.  Also, I find it's must much more enjoyable to work on that stuff than to deal with the more traditional low level CS stuff.  For the record, I majored in History, and Minored in CS in college (I also took more CS class's than I was suppose to, just because doing the minor meant I didn't need to take any of the BS filter class's and could just sign up for what ever I wanted.  They never checked if you had the pre-reqs for the class  ).

So, basically, for any of you who might know, what would actually be a good degree to go for if I'm interested in this?  CS seems to be the base, but it seems like I'd need to find a program that specialized in web rather than a lot of the theoretical bullshit I found makes up a ton of CS courses.  Are there any other degree's/programs I should look out for which are better suited for the direction I want?  I've see masters programs in Information Systems and IT, which look somewhat promissing, but not sure exactly what a masters would entail in that (if it's too broad of a range, or completely worthless, etc).  So, any leads on what to look for when trying to find a program would be appreciated.

Any other tips on finding/getting into Grad school in general would also be appreciated.  Trying to look up schools and programs has been rather daunting, and there is a lot of white noise on the internet...

As an aside, if any of you happen to know a decent program such as I'm looking for at foreign (none North American) university, which teaches it's courses in English, that would be rad as well.  Kind of want to get out and about again, and maybe I can kill 2 birds with one stone.


Also, for the record (before anybody comments on it), I am emailing the graduate adviser at my old university about this stuff as well, so it's not like I'm only relying on the wisdom of the internet for this ;).  I just know a lot of people here seem to be pretty knowledgeable in this area, so I'm interested in seeing if anybody has any input.

[Oz]

My friends and family tend to say that certificates and experience are more important in field like CS.  as opposed to a degree from grad school.  Almost all grad school will consist of a variety of theoritical stuff.  the certs are where the "this guy knows web app X" is often found.  Plus most companies will pay for the cert classes/tests/etc so its free to you.  I know its a different field but my wife got her work to pay for her to get her PMP certificate and she got lots and lots and lots of job offers after she put that on her resume.

But i'm sure there are people in the know here more then i.

[Yegolev]

Just so we're on the same page, CS = Clown School, right?

[Teleku]

Oz, your actually probably correct on that.  I hear the same thing.  I'm tempted to go that route, but I'm just finding I really need to be able to devote myself to studying rather than doing it in my off time.  I've worked towards getting some certs, but I keep getting sidetracked from studying due to limited time and shit getting in the way.  So it's more for me than anything.  Plus, it'd be fun to have an excuse to go back to not working 8 to 5 every day again, heh.

Yegolev, your actually not far off the mark  .

[Yegolev]

From my perspective in the world of corporate IT, I can't see what having a graduate degree would get you unless you were gunning for one of those 1% jobs, like an engineer at Google, and even then you'd be better off with experience.  It's not so important what area of Clown School you concentrate in, more that you know how to land a pie to someone's face consistently.

[Miguel]

Don't be too quick to dismiss the "theoretical bullshit".  I am finishing up a MS degree program in Computer Engineering, which is basically half hardware (EE) and half software (CS).  I have taken quite a few CS classes in things like Design Patterns and Algorithm Analysis.  Formal algorithm analysis (complexity, NP Completeness, Greedy Algorithms, etc) is very mathematics intensive, but it completely changed how I view programming of algorithms.  Design Patterns also made me view software design from a different level which I have found very useful.

If you feel comfortable doing calculus at the graduate level then a MSCS is a good path I think.

[Miasma]

I don't what grad school would help you with unless you want to do something very high level and niche.  You mentioned web applications, no one in web development is ever going ask you for big O notation or to prove your algorithm using strong induction...  If you want to do web apps in the business world but don't want to leave school yet maybe go for an MBA or second degree in business.  Not many programmers have a business background so it would make you stand out and if after ten or twenty years you if want to switch over to the business side or move into management it would be easier.

That said I'm currently doing the "cool stuff in web app development" and fucking hate it with a passion.  The whole Java EE/JBoss/JSF/Richfaces with Ajax/EJB3/seam/Hibernate ORM stuff is killing me.  I'm at the point where I want to sell everything I have and go buy a unabomber style shack in the mountains eschewing technology forever.

Everything used to be so simple and easy.  You wrote your html/javascript, your java server code and your sql.  Then some assholes decided they really hated writing html and sql and only wanted to do the java so they developed these terrible, kludgey systems which are inefficient, actually slow down development, produce stack traces in the hundreds of lines, require dozens of configuration files, -I'm going to stop now before I burst a blood vessel.  God damn app server takes two minutes to load because of it wrapping and injecting shit all over the damn place.  Things used to be fucking elegant.

Edit: added missing "if"

[Lantyssa]

Do you want to work with web apps and development, or do you want to design the next generation of stuff for us to bitch about?  If the former, then a CS graduate degree isn't going to do much for you.  It's going to be more big theory, with some projects that are about making something rather than learning to use most of those things.

I cannot speak for other schools, but at UH the CS students aren't supported real well.  In most departments they can expect some kind of RA or TA position.  In CS?  You're a dime-a-dozen and not worth giving any sort of position.  I get five "please hire me I know tons of computery things (despite actually only barely knowing how to turn a machine on)" resumes a week, despite the fact all links to my addy basically tell them to fuck off and contact HR if they want a job.

[naum]

Do you want to work with web apps and development, or do you want to design the next generation of stuff for us to bitch about?  If the former, then a CS graduate degree isn't going to do much for you.  It's going to be more big theory, with some projects that are about making something rather than learning to use most of those things.

Depends.

You don't really need a degree to do web apps/development. Just start doing it.

To work for Microsoft or other software outfits, a bachelors degree will suffice (or even certifications, though certifications more for the IT side than programmer side)…

Google hires PhDs and education is high in their hiring criteria.

Too much education is never a bad thing.

Oddly, I am a Computer Science / Math degree holder that is interesting in going back to grad school for a history degree… :\

[Morat20]

I cannot speak for other schools, but at UH the CS students aren't supported real well.  In most departments they can expect some kind of RA or TA position.  In CS?  You're a dime-a-dozen and not worth giving any sort of position.  I get five "please hire me I know tons of computery things (despite actually only barely knowing how to turn a machine on)" resumes a week, despite the fact all links to my addy basically tell them to fuck off and contact HR if they want a job.

I'm glad I already HAVE a job. :) And they're paying for my Master's in CS. And even then, the only reason I'm doing a thesis is because no one is doing capstone projects in the area I was interested in (genetic programming). I learned a LOT about computer security, machine learning, advanced DB design, and a ton of other semi-useful stuff, but that information is pretty tangential to my job.

It does come in occasionally useful. I rewrote half our database schema because our original design was written by programmers, not qualified DB folks, and made some changes in several security policies. Well, I recommended changes. :) I didn't have the certs to be an admin on those systems. :)

But trying to get a job out of UHCL? No, not going to happen unless your prof takes a real shine to you and contracts on the side. And unless you really stand out doing capstone stuff, or are doing a thesis near and dear to the professor's heart, ain't going to happen.

In the end, it's not bad to have on your resume -- but it's only really worth anything if you have experience. 10 years + Master's Degree is better than "10 years" but they'll take "10 years" over "Master's" unless they want something really esoteric and your thesis was highly on topic.

[Khaldun]

Some general advice on graduate school: http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?page_id=4

There are CS-specific issues, but they come down to a generally important question: do you have a specific professional objective for which a graduate degree is a necessary prerequisite or qualification? In CS, this is an especially important question since quite a few CS-oriented jobs do not privilege people with graduate work in CS proper, and if some friends of mine are telling the truth, there is even a vague sense of wariness about a CS Ph.D applying for many jobs. (E.g., a fear that this is someone who knows high-level CS theory, but isn't necessarily any good at practical challenges.) There are other fields where I can tell you that a graduate degree in that field *definitely* doesn't help you get a position--journalism is a great example. Most top journalists have little to no respect for those degrees.

If you can't think of a specific professional objective that you know requires a MA or Ph.D for advancement, then think twice and thrice and more times than that about whether you want to be doing graduate school. Because this is the KEY thing to know (discussed at the link above): graduate school in academic fields is mostly NOT about furthering your education. It is generally not an extension of the educational experiences you've had already. Professional programs (law, medicine, etc.) are a bit different--those do tend to genuinely teach you new things, though they have their own complicated problems. But academic fields are largely about teaching you how to behave properly as an academic professional. If that doesn't interest you, you're in for a bad time.

[Morat20]

some friends of mine are telling the truth, there is even a vague sense of wariness about a CS Ph.D applying for many jobs. (E.g., a fear that this is someone who knows high-level CS theory, but isn't necessarily any good at practical challenges.)

That's the gist I got -- a Ph.D in computer science is useless unless you're (1) doing cutting edge shit (in which case, you're probably an academic since the commerical cutting edge shit is done by people with a BS and a lot of experience doing that shit) or (2) Going to be an academic.

Not that there's anything wrong with academia -- I'd probably be quite happy as a professor, but frankly the pay sucks and the politics sucks and frankly my current job has some pretty cool perks and I rather like it.

But real world? Most job openings read "Bachelor's degree plus X years of experience". Some, mostly because I see a lot of job openings that straddle academics and the commercial world, read "Bachelors Plus X years or Master's Plus Y" with Y being about half of X. Most of the ones that require Master's I see tend to be either computer engineering or software engineering jobs that require several years of relevant experience as well as the degree.

Then again, perhaps Master's degrees are going to be worth more if the market bloats with BAs and BSs.

[Torinak]

But real world? Most job openings read "Bachelor's degree plus X years of experience". Some, mostly because I see a lot of job openings that straddle academics and the commercial world, read "Bachelors Plus X years or Master's Plus Y" with Y being about half of X. Most of the ones that require Master's I see tend to be either computer engineering or software engineering jobs that require several years of relevant experience as well as the degree.

Then again, perhaps Master's degrees are going to be worth more if the market bloats with BAs and BSs.

MS is the new BS in CS, especially with many top-tier schools now offering "5 year MS programs".  Having a BS in CS will usually trump not having any CS degree, though.

But as pretty much everyone else has mentioned, grad school isn't where you go to learn about specific web technologies--you go to grad school to learn theory and (general) practice, and (more importantly) to learn how to learn.

The "theoretical bullshit" is what employers look for if they're smart enough to realize that HotWebTech 2.01287 is going to be totally obsolete in 12 6 3 months anyway, and they'd rather have someone who has learned how to learn.

For someone really focused on specific technologies or subsets of computer science, it might be worth looking at technical colleges--they will tend to offer specific classes in current technologies, as opposed to theory.  Also, find an open-source project in an area of interest and contribute to it--you can have demonstrated experience that any employer can look at and evaluate, instead of trying to rely on a few lines on a resume.

(disclaimer: I have a PhD in CS and work at one of those companies that highly values theory and adaptability)

[Margalis]

To repeat what others have said it doesn't sound like a CS grad degree makes sense for you.

[Trippy]

If you want a job at a company doing Web development (rather than doing freelance work) go to Craigslist and look at the Internet Engineering jobs and their requirements at one of the major tech areas like San Francisco and work backwards from there.

As others of have said you don't need or even want a Masters in CS if Web development is what you want to do -- it's very easy to learn if you already have a programming background.

You also don't need or even want certs unless you are doing IT for a MS shop and you do not want to be at a MS shop doing Web development (How many of the "cool" Web 2.0 companies are MS shops? Take your time...).

To get a job doing Web development, even with no paid experience doing it, what you need to do is program your own Web site using the technologies that you want to learn and are in demand. Doesn't have to be fancy or complicated or even particuarly useful though you should try and polish it since you want to make a good first impression with it. Build as many as you can (or expand upon your first one) until you feel confident in your skills and those will basically represent your "resume" when looking for an entry-level Web development job.

Despite the economy and the upcoming Dot Com Bust 2.0 there are still plenty of "entry level" Web development jobs available if you happen to live in the right place. If you are willing to go freelance you don't even have to live in some place like the San Francisco Bay Area but that can be harder to get a job with your limited practical experience.

[Murgos]

If you want to do web development, you're in luck.  Every little 20-30 person company needs a WEB/IT/DB guy or two or even three depending on how internet savvy they are.  So, there are lots of jobs and, even if you are only marginally competent, good money is there to be made regardless of degree.  I did HTML/JS/AJAX/SQL/LAMP/.NET/blah, blah, blah for years while I worked my way though college.

If you want to do real-time automation controls or some such, well, they won't hire you into the bottom rung without a degree.  They will take a fresh-out with a Masters over a fresh-out with a BS most of the time, as well.  For them, it's a gamble, they pay out a little more in the hope that they get someone who, after a few years in the industry, can contribute a little more than just 'good work' by way of innovation.  After a few years though people have generally sorted themselves out and it's mostly irrelevant what degree you have.  My boss a few levels up is managing several billion in projects, he has a 30 year old BS in EE.

Don't believe the hype that PhD's aren't welcome in corporate engineering though, if you did your work in a relevant field, then people will be calling for your help, and paying well for it.

[Signe]

Literature or Art.  It gets you laid.

[Yegolev]

And beat up.

[Teleku]

Bah, fine, ruin my hopes of not having go to work every day at 8 AM again everybody!

But thanks for the advice.  I had kind of hoped it would be a lot more useful in practical terms because the best class's I took in CS where graduate level ones (we had "500 level" class's which suppose to be the hardest class's an undergrad could take, and both Undergrad and Graduate students could take them).  Actually, every class I was ever interested in was at that level, heh.  Also, I've met a ton of people around the bay area who work at some major sites (google, facebook, yahoo, etc.) and almost all of them had masters degree's, so I figured it must help.

Also note, I wasn't really bagging on "theoretical bullshit" to much.  I know theres a need, and actually wanted to learn more by doing a masters degree.  However (IMO) it's just that many CS class's spend to much time talking about the theoretical side of programming instead of making their students, you know, actually practice creating software (even as a history major, I was walking into those graduate level CS courses and knew how to program C++ better than over half of the class, which made me realize how happy I was I didn't stick with majoring in CS).

But I can see everybody's point on it not being worth it.  Again, I had mainly felt it would help me by just forcing me to have some time to actually study and work on stuff (along with teaching me some new stuff and making myself a better programmer overall).  I've grabbed a ton of books on PHP/SQL/AJAX/CSS/C#/ETC, and read them when I can, but I'm not making much progress because frankly, after working 8 to 5, spending time getting between work and home, and taking some time to exercise, I don't have much time left in the day (I'd I'm usually burned out on thinking to hard by then).  But that's not something I can't overcome.  If an MS degree isn't really that helpful, then your right, probably isn't worth it.  My sister got her masters and will be working to pay that off for years and years to come now, heh.

Though, Trippy, it's not THAT easy to get a job in the bay area entry level.  I spent about 3 months spamming my resume to everybody I could (heavily using craigslist), and didn't even get a call back until that 3rd month (in which I got an interview, and subsequently got a job on that first interview, so I guess I can feel happy about that, even if the job is QA/Tech Support instead of development).  I'm hoping that getting at least a year of a "real job" under my belt for the resume will help, but it's not easy for entry level.  My roommate who actually majored Business Admin (basically doing SQL databases and stuff) and took CS courses as well, spent 9 months looking for a job in the bay area (living out of his parents home in the mean time) after getting out of college before he could get a job semi-related to his degree.  Competition is fierce.

ANYWAYS, thanks for the advice everybody.  I'll have to think about this some more.

I might just go for plan B:  Join the peace corp and go smoke opium inside a yurt in Mongolia for a couple of years

[Lantyssa]

Also note, I wasn't really bagging on "theoretical bullshit" to much.  I know theres a need, and actually wanted to learn more by doing a masters degree.  However (IMO) it's just that many CS class's spend to much time talking about the theoretical side of programming instead of making their students, you know, actually practice creating software (even as a history major, I was walking into those graduate level CS courses and knew how to program C++ better than over half of the class, which made me realize how happy I was I didn't stick with majoring in CS).

As my second degree is CS, I will bag on the theoretical side.  It's good to know, but it's all they teach.  I had three good classes:  Assembly, C++, and Operating Systems.  The first two because the professors actually taught something tangible, the third because he mixed the theoretical with practical.  No one came out of that program with one friggin' clue how to code unless they went into it knowing how to.  That is rediculous.  While Assembly itself doesn't do much for me, that was the most kick-ass class we had taught at the time because the prof shreded people for shitty coding, but like-wise rewarded them for brilliant ideas and implementations.

I might just go for plan B:  Join the peace corp and go smoke opium inside a yurt in Mongolia for a couple of years

Not a bad idea if you can live without the internet.

[tommh]

Well, If your just doing it to stretch your mind go for it.  How theoretical vs how practical your degree is has a lot to do with the specific program you join and even more what you decide to do as your thesis/project.

From a resume point of view a MS will help you from a lot to a little in roughly this order:

huge help =    Academia
                     Scientific development
                     Defense
                     Business/Corp development
                     Net
not so much=  Games
                 
Of course YMMV especially if you hit a niche area hard. For example if you specialized in graphics programming and did a kick ass graduate project you'd have no porblem getting a good game dev job.
 

[Khaldun]

Literature or Art.  It gets you laid.

Graduate work in literature gets you laid? I just thought it gave masturbation an extra tinge of gloominess and existential futility.

[Khaldun]

See, again, I have to stress that a great deal of graduate school does not stretch the mind, more's the pity. There are always exceptions, either because you find an exceptional advisor or a program where there is an unusual degree of open-mindedness and intellectual passion throughout the program. But most Ph.D programs (or MS programs that live in their shadow) tend to shut down exploratory learning rather than open it up. The major thing I tell all my undergraduates, even before the other advice about grad school, is that if you find yourself intellectually bored or unchallenged as a young adult, grad school should be the last thing on your mind as an answer to that problem.

[Miguel]

One thing I think bears mentioning: CS is *not* just programming, it's the mathematics and theory of computing.  If you are truly only interested in learning a framework or a specific language, then you don't need a Master's to get that.

However if you want to learn more fundamentally about computing, computability, decidability, etc, then a MS program makes more sense.  You really have to be in a frame of mind that you are there to learn the basis for theories that you take for granted.  One example of this is that I took a formal compiler and syntax class last semester, which went over in great detail the pros and cons of supporting 'closures' in traditional languages like C.  Hence, this wasn't a class about programming in C, it was a course that answered more fundamental questions like:

1) What does a language provide?
2) What are the trade-offs in language selection?
3) How do languages do stack/heap management?
4) What are the pros and cons of supporting recursion?

That being said:  when you get a job, you need to be able to provide high-quality deliverables on a schedule.  You aren't going to get that in a MS program, but to some extent MS programs enhance on-the-job experience in interesting ways.

[lamaros]

Literature or Art.  It gets you laid.

Graduate work in literature gets you laid? I just thought it gave masturbation an extra tinge of gloominess and existential futility.

What?

[Soln]

Literature or Art.  It gets you laid.

Graduate work in literature gets you laid? I just thought it gave masturbation an extra tinge of gloominess and existential futility.

No that's Philosophy 

[Teleku]

Or you could just do History and Starve.

Our department even had a special informational meeting for grads titled "What CAN I do with a History degree?"

[stark]

When I see we have an interview candidate that has a Masters or PhD that is an automatic check-minus.  I'm still willing to give them a shot, but in five years we've only hired on person with a PhD and I personally thought he wasn't very good.

We need to get shit done...yesterday.  Function over form, Clarity over Elegance,  Simple and Clunky over "The Right Way".  The professional students just don't seem very good at, or in any hurry, to solve immediate problems.

[Murgos]

When I see we have an interview candidate that has a Masters or PhD that is an automatic check-minus.  I'm still willing to give them a shot, but in five years we've only hired on person with a PhD and I personally thought he wasn't very good.

We need to get shit done...yesterday.  Function over form, Clarity over Elegance,  Simple and Clunky over "The Right Way".  The professional students just don't seem very good at, or in any hurry, to solve immediate problems.

It sounds like you're doing it wrong.  If you hire someone who has a thesis on network topology you don't sit him in front of a terminal and ask him to bang out web forms.  They are experts in a specific area, you hire them to work in that area or you get someone else.

The ability to be methodical and create 'correct' reference material is exactly the skill you are purchasing.  Then you hand the theory/prototype to the worker bees and they turn it into a practical solution.

We have a guy whose only function is to craft algorithms, you hand him a spec and a resource budget and you get back a perfect little mathematical model, optimized to the nth and practically bulletproof, or at least with it's flaws well documented.  It's expensive and it's not usually fast but sometimes it's absolutely necessary for the success of the entire project.

[Sky]

"What CAN I do with a History degree?"

IT 

[Raging Turtle]

This thread is making me wonder about my plan to get a masters in linguistics a year or two down the road.

Hmmmm.

[Lantyssa]

Linguists have a lot more opportunities than history majors.

[Murgos]

Linguists have a lot more opportunities than history majors.

Especially the cunning ones.  Right Lantyssa?

[Khaldun]

This thread is making me wonder about my plan to get a masters in linguistics a year or two down the road.

Hmmmm.

Same set of evaluations to run through, at any rate. If you can't name a professional objective for which that master's is a necessary or optimal prerequisite, don't do it.

[Morat20]

As my second degree is CS, I will bag on the theoretical side.  It's good to know, but it's all they teach.  I had three good classes:  Assembly, C++, and Operating Systems.  The first two because the professors actually taught something tangible, the third because he mixed the theoretical with practical.  No one came out of that program with one friggin' clue how to code unless they went into it knowing how to.  That is rediculous.  While Assembly itself doesn't do much for me, that was the most kick-ass class we had taught at the time because the prof shreded people for shitty coding, but like-wise rewarded them for brilliant ideas and implementations.

Our assembly class was useless -- fucking hated assembly anyways. Jump statements make me feel dirty. My OS class was nice -- the project, by the end, was effectively simulating a microkernal. You learned how OS's worked, but you also had to demonstrate a practical grasp of the concepts AND decent coding ability.

Strangely, the advanced OS class was much the same way -- the funnest project I ever did was distributed shared memory without a central server. I ended up wtih a really clean, scaleable system that I was rather proud of. I've sort of figured that UHCL, at least, views the OS (required for a BS in CS) and the Advanced OS (required for a Masters) are sort of acid-tests. The classes were deliberately hard, with projects that required you to demonstrate some proficiency with actual application.

Then again, over the years -- more and more of the "bullshit theory" classes I've taken (both as a bachelor's and as part of my Master's) have come in handy. Things like numerical methods popping up when I was debugging a program that had a bunch of calculations in it, with a creeping error that took forever to suss out. Data structures was probably the most useful, just because you have to make data structure choices all the freakin' time, and it can really bite you on the ass later. The DB classes, once I really understood the subject, came in really handy -- it's all fucking databases today, most with schema's designed by monkeys with only a bachelor's and no clue. :)

Then again, over the years I've moved from "code monkey" to "solution designer". Admittedly, mostly I'm Team Lead of "me", but we have a short prototype/development cycle (We use agile, although I'm the only one that actually realizes it. EThe group sort of fell into it because it worked for what we do), and so I'm often making critical design decisions -- and it's admittedly kind of a cool feeling to side-step a show-stopping bug three months before it crops up, all because of a bit of useless theory I remembered when we were discussing solutions. :)

I think a lot of a CS degree is stuff you may need, but not until you move past implementation and into design. And even then, it all depends. You can do so damn much with computers, well -- I never thought I'd actually be glad I'd studied the damn time-synch methods until I walked into a meeting where they were arguing about some synch problem with a distributed system we run. Fuck if I can remember which one we cannabilized to get everyone to agree on what was going on, but it was light years better than the jury-rigged shit they were discussing.