Marvel sues City of Heroes

[Raging Turtle]

A mod might want to move this to the CoH forums, but I thought the outcome of the lawsuit might have applications on other games, so I figured I'd try here first.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1333&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041111%2F2235482241.htm&sc=1333
Sorry, I have no idea how to make text links.

Summary from the article:  

Marvel Enterprises Inc. is suing two firms behind a computer superhero role-playing game it claims allows players to make virtual characters that are too similar to ``The Hulk,'' ``X-Men'' and other heroes in the comic book company's stable.

I think this is pure idiocy, since Marvel doesn't lose a dime when some uncreative 12 year old wants to make a hulk clone (although I do get sick of seeing a new 'The Instopppable Hulkk' every other day or so).  It'll be interesting to see Cryptic's response.

[Flashman]

I'm speechless at this stupidity.

I say that as a trademark lawyer.

[Liquidator]

Couldn't Cryptic just remove the offending costume choices and tell Marvel to shove it?

[eldaec]

Couldn't Cryptic just remove the offending costume choices and tell Marvel to shove it?

It would be somewhat difficult to find every combination of costume choices that bears some resemblance to a marvel character.

Only area I have some (very limited) sympathy for marvel is the claws powerset, where the animation is an obvious rip off of the XMen films. Whether this is actionable I have no idea and care even less, since it clearly is not going to do the IP owner any actual harm whatsoever.

Other than that it's just another example of exactly why the congress of 1790 (and the British parliment of 1710) got it exactly right in limiting copyright protection to 14 years. If lobbyists had not been allowed to continually rewrite the 18th century law, then maybe anally retentive protection of franchises is not what would drive the modern entertainment industry.

[Kageru]

The problem is that the threat of a law suit is not very directly connected to its validity. But definitely agree that the extension of copyright, and the ensuing growth of `franchise' over actually producing good products, has had no shortage of negatives.

[stray]

Couldn't Cryptic just remove the offending costume choices and tell Marvel to shove it?

It would be somewhat difficult to find every combination of costume choices that bears some resemblance to a marvel character.

Not just somewhat difficult, but near impossible. I guess, say, in the case of the Hulk, Cryptic could remove any combination of huge and green, but that's fucked. There are alot of characters that could be made that way without ripping off the Hulk.

Somebody needs to explain to Marvel (or better yet, a judge) what custom character creation exactly is. I don't think they understand. It's not like Cryptic has a staff of content creators making these violations.

[Ironwood]

This is almost as moronic as the nintendo/suicide girls thing.

Nobody wins here.

[Trippy]

Trademarks, which are different from Copyrights, have to be actively protected in the US or else you risk losing the rights to them. This is why companies like Disney actively go after, say, cheapo T-shirt vendors selling unlicensed T-shirts. If they didn't, they would risk losing those trademark rights.

[Big Gulp]

Trademarks, which are different from Copyrights, have to be actively protected in the US or else you risk losing the rights to them.

And where has Cryptic even come close to infringing on Marvel's copyrights?  Quick answer, they haven't.  Just because I can sort of mock up a guy to look like Spider-Man or make a big green guy doesn't mean I've infringed Marvel's copyrights.

Now if all of a sudden Doctor Doom was a new arch villain in one of the updates I'd say, yes, then they have a case.

[Trippy]

Trademarks, which are different from Copyrights, have to be actively protected in the US or else you risk losing the rights to them.

And where has Cryptic even come close to infringing on Marvel's copyrights?  Quick answer, they haven't.  Just because I can sort of mock up a guy to look like Spider-Man or make a big green guy doesn't mean I've infringed Marvel's copyrights.

Now if all of a sudden Doctor Doom was a new arch villain in one of the updates I'd say, yes, then they have a case.

Again it's trademark and not copyright. Without having read the suit I can't really say what justification Marvel is basing it on. However, taking a page from RIAA's current copyright (not trademark) enforcement campaign it's possible Marvel is claiming that CoH, the program, is a tool for allowing people to create trademark infringing characters. This is analgous to RIAA trying to shut down file sharing programs like Napster which they claim are just a copyright piracy tools, though again RIAA's stuff is dealing with copyrights and not trademarks so the laws are different between the two.

Edit: BTW, this trademark infringment problem is somethng Cryptic and NCSoft have been aware of since the beginning. They were banning people in beta for creating characters too similiar to exisiting comic book characters. It sounds like post-beta their enforcement of the chraracter creation agreement has been lax.

[SirBruce]

Cryptic has an ace up their sleeve: before they launched they informed Marvel (and DC and perhaps others) of their product and asked for a list of names of trademarked or copyright characters to exclude.  There are no doubt other Marvel characters that were not named which now conflict with CoH "heroes" which Cryptic can claim is now "theirs".  Expect both sides to reach a mutually amicable arrangement.

Bruce

[Soukyan]

Ummm... isn't it more like free advertising for Marvel Comics? I mean really. I wouldn't have touched a comic book with a 40 foot pole before I played CoH, but I actually bought several afterwards. Looks like Marvel is getting the boycott from me now. Dumb fucks.

[Ironwood]

Ummm... isn't it more like free advertising for Marvel Comics? I mean really. I wouldn't have touched a comic book with a 40 foot pole before I played CoH, but I actually bought several afterwards. Looks like Marvel is getting the boycott from me now. Dumb fucks.

This is what I mean by no-one wins.  You'd think cross selling opportunities would abound.  But no, it's all 'stay away from my pig farm...'

[tar]

It sounds like post-beta their enforcement of the chraracter creation agreement has been lax.

I can't point to a specific source for this belief, but I'm under the impression that NCSoft isn't actively searching for infringements but will take action on specific instances if they are reported.

[kaid]

The only thing that surpises me about this is that it didn't happen months ago. Even in beta many were asking questions about if people like marvel would sue COH for copyright infringment.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


kaid

[Ardent]

Dear Marvel,

Stop being douchebags.

Sincerely,
Ardent

[Sky]

I don't see how Marvel has a leg to stand on, when Cryptic will remove characters that infringe upon copyrights. Not only my wonderous Captain A-Hole, who had issues beyond his carbon copy of Cappy, but also my Man of Iron, who was removed on trademark issues alone.

I didn't expect to play either character, but I grew up a huge Marvel fan, so I just HAD to try making a couple. Even Cosmo is based on the Silver Surfer background...

[Arnold]

Trademarks, which are different from Copyrights, have to be actively protected in the US or else you risk losing the rights to them.

However, taking a page from RIAA's current copyright (not trademark) enforcement campaign it's possible Marvel is claiming that CoH, the program, is a tool for allowing people to create trademark infringing characters.

A pencil is a tool that allows people to do the same thing.  Great argument.

[HaemishM]

Thank you, DMCA, and Fuck You, Marvel. I don't feel at all bad about getting BitTorrent comics now.

Seriously, after the raping of the Avengers that just took place in Avengers' Disassembled, the raping of Gwen Stacy's memory for the sake of short-term shock value, and this, I'm losing all respect for Marvel. DC, a minion of AOL Time-freaking-Warner is looking better.

[Pineapple]

Cryptic has an ace up their sleeve: before they launched they informed Marvel (and DC and perhaps others) of their product and asked for a list of names of trademarked or copyright characters to exclude.
Bruce

Been in the game lately? It's not being enforced very well if at all. Perhaps that is where the problem is.

EDIT: For the record, I dont care. I'm just giving some info on the current status within the game.

[Soukyan]

Cryptic has an ace up their sleeve: before they launched they informed Marvel (and DC and perhaps others) of their product and asked for a list of names of trademarked or copyright characters to exclude.
Bruce

Been in the game lately? It's not being enforced very well if at all. Perhaps that is where the problem is.

Oh hell. Who cares if it's being enforced? (Obviously only Marvel) It's a fucking game. Or is Marvel planning on making their own superhero MMOG sometime soon? I tire of businesses trying to limit the amount of variety available to consumers.

[HaemishM]

Vivendi signs deal to produce MMOG based on Marvel Universe.

Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective.

Enforcement is an issue, but we all know how hard it is to enforce stupidiot names in an MMOG. Unfortunately, judges and juries probably won't.

[stray]

Vivendi signs deal to produce MMOG based on Marvel Universe.

Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective.

Enforcement is an issue, but we all know how hard it is to enforce stupidiot names in an MMOG. Unfortunately, judges and juries probably won't.

Wasn't that supposed to be made like...years ago? I wish them luck, because the Marvel Universe is a game worth making..As for this other shit, they need to quit.

EDIT: Ah I was right. That article was dated: Thursday September 19, 2002

[Fargull]

Vivendi signs deal to produce MMOG based on Marvel Universe.

Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective.

Hope Cryptic poops all over them.

[HaemishM]

Sure, but 2 years time is nothing in MMOG development. Most take 3-4 years. Who knows what they have produced already (if anything).

[Soukyan]

Vivendi signs deal to produce MMOG based on Marvel Universe.

Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective.

Enforcement is an issue, but we all know how hard it is to enforce stupidiot names in an MMOG. Unfortunately, judges and juries probably won't.

Wasn't that supposed to be made like...years ago? I wish them luck, because the Marvel Universe is a game worth making..As for this other shit, they need to quit.

EDIT: Ah I was right. That article was dated: Thursday September 19, 2002

Yes, but if it is ever even going to be made in the first place, you'll never get to play as any of the comic book heroes that they've written about anyhow. Kinda like MEO, where you can meet the heroes on their journey, but you can't play them, because they don't want 800 player-made Hulks running around. So if it does get made, it'll be lousy anyhow. And it'll be too little, too late. I can already play a superhero in CoH. Bad timing for Marvel.

[Pineapple]

Yes, but if it is ever even going to be made in the first place, you'll never get to play as any of the comic book heroes that they've written about anyhow.

Exactly.

Marvel does have a good Universe for an MMOG in theory. Basically anything imagined could be added in, any type of world, dimension, powerset. This would give huge variety and limitless content.

But…

Unlike CoH, Marvel’s universe is filled with, and centered around, the well known famous characters. I should never be able to actually play as Magneto or Hulk, and likewise I should never be able to kill them in the game. So what would they be, invulnerable merchants in town?

Too much Marvel content is untouchable in this manner. Players would expect to see these characters, and yet couldn’t really do anything to them or as them without big fiction problems.

They could pretend that there are no actual deaths, like in CoH. But I can imagine it being like EQ is now, where a powerful creature or god spawns and is killed within 10 minutes because it is Uber-Guild XYZ’s turn to kill him. Rather lame situation for Marvel heroes.

Marvel should avoid the MMOG fad. Do it some other way.

[Fabricated]

I don't see how this lawsuit could even work what with Cryptic contacting Marvel before even making the game and having a strict "no ripoff" policy in regards to character creation.

I'm not entirely too worried though since NCSoft is the 800 pound gorilla here.

[Ardent]

Unlike CoH, Marvel’s universe is filled with, and centered around, the well known famous characters. I should never be able to actually play as Magneto or Hulk, and likewise I should never be able to kill them in the game. So what would they be, invulnerable merchants in town?

The most fun I ever had in Star Wars Galaxies was when my little rodian found Darth Vader. Lord Vader wouldn't do anything but stand there, so I took a number of screenshots of me saying and doing very impure things to him. He didn't seem to care.

Seeing a naked rodian doing the lambada with a passive Darth Vader tends to diminish the immersiveness of the game world.

[geldonyetich]

Ran across The Incratible Hulk in CoH yesterday.   Marvel has a case that people are emulating Marvel characters in CoH.

However, if Marvel at all hurts City of Heroes with this lawsuit, I'm going to never commit another act that supports them in any way ever again.

[HaemishM]

Ran across The Incratible Hulk in CoH yesterday.   Marvel has a case that people are emulating Marvel characters in CoH.

Thing that makes that such a stupid thing to say (if a judge were to agree) is that it also gives Marvel a case against anyone who manufactures drawing pencils, inks, pens, coloring materials, Photoshop, scanner companies, copier companies, and anyone with artistic ability and a penchant for over-irradiated avatars of personal rage.

EXCELSIOR!

[Paelos]

They won't agree, its a frivolous lawsuit for what I guess is basically a PR move. I'd put my money on it being dropped before a judge would have to rule on it.

[Fargull]

Hmm.. who came first, Godzilla or the Hulk.. both are big, created by science, destroy things, ambigously good on occassion and create fleeing masses of pedestrians when ever they are in the city.

You think Marvel can make a case?

[Furiously]

Don't forget the green part....

[stray]

Looks like Marvel is covering all bases with this one.