Global Thematic PvP changes discussion thread

[murdoc]

heyhey what addons are you running? I want floaty xp and renown numbers!

[squirrel]

heyhey what addons are you running? I want floaty xp and renown numbers!

Warhammer Scrolling Text I suspect - I use it and it's perty.

[schild]

Eh. That's the default damage shit. I don't have anything installed that would change it, unless LittleBlackBook or CleanUnitFrames changes it.

[Threash]

heyhey what addons are you running? I want floaty xp and renown numbers!

Huh, thats the default setting.

[kildorn]

Yeah, uh, my client does that automatically, with no addons installed.

And unshakable focus is great when I get morale abilities to fire correctly ><

[squirrel]

Huh. Hard to tell without seeing it moving I guess. SCT does all effects, low health warning etc. (combustion...)

[murdoc]

huh. Never really noticed the numbers floating by that weren't damage related. Could be because I'm all melee and they all kinda run together or could be because I need to wear my glasses when I game.

[Khaldun]

I don't get why tanks shouldn't have knockbacks. Arguably tanks are the ONLY ones who should have knockback.

The tank paradigm in WoW is basically a PvE paradigm. You give the tanks abilities to compel the computer-controlled targets to attack the tank. Then the only twists are whether the tank uses those abilities correctly, whether the tank can respond to unplanned events (someone drawing aggro), etc.

In WoW PvP, a tank's only virtue is relative unkillability, and that means very little unless the only player that is available to be killed is a tank. Even then, not such a big deal, since the tank can't attack at range, and can't do that much damage if he can attack. Obviously there are variations in WoW, tanks whose spec shades them towards DPS-dealiing. But then they're easier to kill. When they're not, ignore them and kill everything else. It's even true against NPC and mob targets: if you have a group of mobs to kill, you deal with the tank mob the last.

WAR gives the tank a more satisfying job, or a more satisfying thing to do with relative unkillability: keep the other players from dying long enough for them to achieve objectives of some kind. The tank has a lot of tools to do that with which are unavailable in WoW: actually being able to physically block other players, hold the line coupled with charging in first, rooting, snaring...and knockback. It's a completely consistent power for a WAR tank to have: used properly, it gets an enemy off of a flag carrier, or gets them away from an objective.

The classes that should absolutely not have a  knockback are melee damage-dealers of any kind, even hybrids. It makes no sense at all for them to have an ability like that: their job is to get in and kill the squishies, hard. The other knockbacks should belong to ranged damage-dealers, for the opposite reason of the tank. The tank wants to protect objectives; the ranged damage-dealer needs to protect himself.

[Nebu]

WARNING: OPINION ALERT!

Being able to do that much damage in a single attack is a broken element.  MMO PvP is a more tactical affair (else it would be an FPS).  At its best, battles should be based on attrition rather than a determination of who had their I-WIN buttons available most.  I can't imagine that people find it fun to be two-shot. 

[Arinon]

I always thought roots as intended were fine but that all of the things that were supposed to be happening with them aren't.  Namely, they break like 50% on damage and they have a lockout timer.   Neither of those things seem to be happening much.  I've seen the Unstoppable buff lots but I'm guessing it applies to everything BUT roots.  If I mutate or juggernaut out of a root (guess which classes I play!) I can be rooted again instantly.  If this is by design, well then, thats a seriously fucked design.

I think the thing with some of the knockback nonsense is that they were given to some of the classes with the intention that they would be used as defense tools and they aren't using them that way.  Hello lava.

Too early for class balance changes but I think saying a BW can rape face if he has a healer is sorta missing the point.  Yes they can, very much so, but can sorcs as well?  If no then BW may need a change if yes then maybe both BW and Sorcs need a change.  Or change all the other DPS classes.  Choose your poison.  Then again if MDPS could do their job and not suffer all these stacked CC issues BW/Sorc would hold less power over the outcome of fights.

[Tarami]

WARNING: OPINION ALERT!

Being able to do that much damage in a single attack is a broken element.  MMO PvP is a more tactical affair (else it would be an FPS).  At its best, battles should be based on attrition rather than a determination of who had their I-WIN buttons available most.  I can't imagine that people find it fun to be two-shot. 

Word up. I hoped WAR, as it seemed that way to me in the early game, would take this to heart, but alas... Poof, here comes that fucken Witch Elf again and I'll tell you, dwarf does blend. Rather well, at that.

[schild]

Are you saying Witch Elves aren't tactical? Are you crazy?

[andar]

Are you saying Witch Elves aren't tactical? Are you crazy?

They are tactical whilst maneuvering into position to kill a BW without dying, but once you get there you spam your buttons like anyone else and hope the BW doesn't root and run before you can kill him.  Tactics go out the window once you actually get into a fight mostly, beyond learning to swallow your pride and run away..

[schild]

Tactics go out the window once you actually get into a fight mostly, beyond learning to swallow your pride and run away..

I'm no advocate of claiming "skill" in an MMOG. I'm good at killing because I know how to maximize damage output. A skill? No. Just simple analyzation of how things interact.

But tactics? Yea, I can see where they'd apply, and they don't take skill to learn. Running away? A solution, but there's better options out there. Detaunt, root, back up a bit, lob a festering arrow, knock back. Freaking out when you get close to someone is how you lose.

[andar]

Perhaps it's different for your class, but after killing a squishy guy with my DoK and suddenly every dress wearing Elf is trying to hump my leg or something, I run away.  Eventually, they'll kill me if I don't, and at that point there's not much hope of killing another one.  I'm not talking about a WE anymore, but for me, that's about all there is for tactics.  (And I do damn good at winning as far as the scoreboard is concerned)

[Tarami]

I wasn't really literal about what I said - it was more the gist that WAR, too, suffers from the same 3 second executions that WoW does. Which I hoped it wouldn't. Well, more time for Princess Maker! 

[Phunked]

I don't get why tanks shouldn't have knockbacks. Arguably tanks are the ONLY ones who should have knockback.

The tank paradigm in WoW is basically a PvE paradigm. You give the tanks abilities to compel the computer-controlled targets to attack the tank. Then the only twists are whether the tank uses those abilities correctly, whether the tank can respond to unplanned events (someone drawing aggro), etc.

In WoW PvP, a tank's only virtue is relative unkillability, and that means very little unless the only player that is available to be killed is a tank. Even then, not such a big deal, since the tank can't attack at range, and can't do that much damage if he can attack. Obviously there are variations in WoW, tanks whose spec shades them towards DPS-dealiing. But then they're easier to kill. When they're not, ignore them and kill everything else. It's even true against NPC and mob targets: if you have a group of mobs to kill, you deal with the tank mob the last.

WAR gives the tank a more satisfying job, or a more satisfying thing to do with relative unkillability: keep the other players from dying long enough for them to achieve objectives of some kind. The tank has a lot of tools to do that with which are unavailable in WoW: actually being able to physically block other players, hold the line coupled with charging in first, rooting, snaring...and knockback. It's a completely consistent power for a WAR tank to have: used properly, it gets an enemy off of a flag carrier, or gets them away from an objective.

The classes that should absolutely not have a  knockback are melee damage-dealers of any kind, even hybrids. It makes no sense at all for them to have an ability like that: their job is to get in and kill the squishies, hard. The other knockbacks should belong to ranged damage-dealers, for the opposite reason of the tank. The tank wants to protect objectives; the ranged damage-dealer needs to protect himself.

Note: I'm speaking for IBs. If other tank classes are not up to par, well...should have gone stunty.

An IB is a better damage soaker, better DPS than a real MDPS class and has the most controllable and the largest range knockback in the game, as well as the most easily usable AoE knockback linked to an essential DPS ability.  I can also provide the largest single damage reduction and buff to any player, with 200 willpower, 10% crit and less damage taken. Combined with AoE detaunt and you have a class that is amazing in solo PvP(knockback into lava gets me at least 2 kills before I croak, what with  my tank level defenses) and beyond amazing with healers pumping healing into you (magic is the best way to kill a tank, but with stubborn as stone that lets me keep 50% melee haste up all the time, which is enough to pure DPS a class down, even through healing and even without knockback).

Tanks should be useful but knockback mechanics of all kinds are too powerful. Hell, even if the lava didn't kill you, I used it to great effect in MT to dot up a target and smack them out of los so they die before a healer can make it to them. You can't cast while flying either, so you can do the same to a healer.

Battlefield control does not have to be battle field domination.

[Khaldun]

The problem is the lava, not the knockback. Get rid of the lava. Knockback works beautifully in tier 2 scenarios and in open-world RvR.

[Phunked]

And by beautifully you mean makes every class that can do it better than every class that can't do it by say.. 50%.

And then makes every class that can spec into doing it AoE on a short timer better than every class that can't by say... 500%.

You don't get as much knockback in t2. If you did, people would be bitching about getting curb stomped as I run to the backline, smack the healers off into the river and watch as the rest of my DPS burninantes your now healerless DPS during the 15 seconds it takes to run back with a 40% slow. Oh you mean your tanks can't do an AOE knockback with an added slow effect?

Too bad motherfucker, should have rolled stunty.

[Riggswolfe]

First off, stop whining about knockback people.

Secondly, roots and snares are annoying in this game and it only gets worse. They need to have a cooldown on the person who is snared/rooted so if you get snared/rooted you can't be subjected to it again for 10 seconds or so. It's very annoying to be chain snared/rooted, especially since my ability to lose them only drops the current one and doesn't seem to keep followups away from me!

[Lakov_Sanite]

How fast do you REALLY think mythic will be patching in any changes like the ones you suggest? Seems like they're mostly concerned about the important things...like mob run speed...?!

[Nebu]

In DAoC, melee could keep a target snared permanently.  The tradeoff was that most snares were positional attacks, so you could pre-kite or avoid some attacks to minimize the effects.  I think there may be some carryover.  I'm fine with snares.  I'm mostly fine with knockbacks.  The roots are a problem.  More classes need a purge/immunity timer.

Knockbacks are a good idea in practice, but things like cliffs and lava are giving too much advantage.  Solutions would be to eliminate the damage component of lava and replace it with a snare or somesuch.  Similarly, give the border terrain a bit more thought when playing... it's a good thing to keep positioning in mind.

[tazelbain]

Lava should have a small damage component and force you to leap out of it like a Warner Bros cartoon with its butt of fire.

[amiable]

Lava should have a small damage component and force you to leap out of it like a Warner Bros cartoon with its butt of fire.

If you are a ranged class you should not be knocked into the lava, period.  Every time I have it has been the reult of poor positioning on my part.  Melee classes are in a bit more of a bind, but they also need some situational awareness...  There are walls there for a reason!  Hug them!

[Khaldun]

Well, I'm into tier 3 now, and...

Tier 3 is where the fun in the game goes to die. Hard.

It's not quite the hidden layer of non-existence and suck that Age of Conan was concealing in its higher levels, but it sure as hell is evident that Mythic just said, "Copy and paste the game mechanics we've had for the first two tiers, make them more grindy and boring, add some difficulty, and voila! tier 3 is finished".

1) Tier 3 PQs? So far I haven't seen a single one that has a fun new wrinkle, new kinds of mobs or strategies, anything to make them appealing. What I have seen is that the Stage I of the Tier 3 PQs is fucking AWFUL in its grindiness. Presumably maybe to tempt solo players who are doing the regular PvE quests that take you to the PQ areas to stick around for a while and grind up their influence in that chapter, and in so doing, keep them busy. The consequence though is that I almost never come across a group of people who spontaneously just start doing the PQs, which was the whole point of the idea in the first place--to get people to group up without the relatively elaborate coordination provided by guilds or the need to hang around a central gathering place spamming to get a PUG together. This is very much a consequence of the bad design of those PQs. Look, if Mythic is worried that a very small number of people are going to "game" a PQ and get the loot without having to really work for it, and ergo think to themselves, "Let's make sure they're tough by making Stage I involve killing fuckloads of rapid-spawning mobs", they're missing the point. If you cut the Stage I mob-quotas in half, you still wouldn't get two or three people finishing the whole thing for the same reason you don't see them doing that in Tier 1, because Stage 2 and 3 require larger numbers and more coordination.  Mythic might as well pull out all the Tier 3 PQs and do them completely over. Right now, they take one of the clever design ideas in the game and piss all over it.

2) Regular PvE in Tier 3? Far more boring and grindy that what has come before. The questlines were never very interesting, but now they become actively stupid and mechanical with a very few exceptions. (I did like the dude in Talabecland who basically asks you remove some excretion from him, which then becomes a nurgling). The zones look increasingly like generic ass, or like screamingly derivative WoW retreads. Avelorn and Badlands particularly. I'm fairly grind-tolerant, but I almost can't stand doing Tier 3 PvE solo or in groups for more than thirty minutes or so. And yet, given the way the game is evolving, if you don't keep up with the levelling wave, you'll have no alternative...which leads to...

3) RvR in Tier 3. First off, even though on my server a lot of the players have characters in Tier 3, the scenarios are just not popping at anything like the rate that they were before. I think either people are going back to alts, shelving their characters, or grimly grinding through PvE. I'm not entirely sure what's going on, though I've been talking to various people. Some of it is that people increasingly dislike or avoid the scenario design in Tier 3--Order players particularly don't like the map design for Tor Anroc, but that's apparently what Destro is queueing for when they're queueing. Everyone has a sense of ennui about the scenarios--that the only new elements that appear in Tier 3 make them less rather than more fun. The basic patterns of play have become boring by that point as well, and new wrinkles in your character's abilities start to become fewer and far between. There's less sense of progression through RvR, whether through renown, gear, or ranks.

Gameplay is starting to become waiting for a long time for Tier 3 to pop, not liking it much when it does, getting stuck on fucking boring PvE in the meantime, and hoping that some open-world RvR might start up somewhere around 10pm EST. Sometimes when it does start, only a few players on the other side actually respond to what the others are doing, and they're often so badly outnumbered that they get sick of it and go back to boring PvE, figuring that tomorrow, maybe they'll get into a small group that can retake some RvR objectives while the other guys aren't into it.

If some fun doesn't come back into this somehow, I'm not feeling motivated to continue--and I'm not falling for the "but the real FUN begins at level 40" schtick any longer.

[amiable]

If some fun doesn't come back into this somehow, I'm not feeling motivated to continue--and I'm not falling for the "but the real FUN begins at level 40" schtick any longer.

Have you found a guild that you like that puts together guild groups?  It makes PvE and PvP a lot more interesting.  Taking and defending keeps offers nice reknown/loot rewards (although crappy xp).

[Khaldun]

Right now I'm in an especially weakly motivated guild, but talking to the other Destro guilds, they're not super-active either. There are two fairly strong, cohesive Order guilds on my server, though.

[Khaldun]

But, to return to the larger theme (and this is important for thinking about PvP), if Warhammer's dynamics require not just being in a guild, but being in a highly organized, strongly motivated guild in order to experience the content in a fun way, that's no improvement over what WoW or any other MMOG offers. The flavor of the fun is slightly different, maybe, but not the barrier. I could just as easily say, "If you're in a highly motivated guild of 60 people, you get to see some really interesting PvE content in WoW".

The basic point of PQs as a game mechanic is to incentivize casual social play--to get the best of both worlds. The same for scenarios--it's to structure social play in such a way that you can log on, click a button, and blam! get into it. If instead you have to find a guild that has a critical mass of people who want to do certain kinds of content at the same time that you want to do it and are available to do it, and more complicatedly yet, you have to do that at a time when there's a guild of strangers from the other faction who are happily synchronized with you in order to have real fun, then the PQ mechanic and maybe even the scenarios are kind of useless adornments.

Quite aside from this, even with a well-coordinated group (I ran last night with another guild as their guest tank), the tier 3 PQs are just bad. We did the Chapter 11 PQs in Talabecland. Small well-balanced group where everyone knew what they were doing. We all found the PQs boring. The first stages were just terrible, ugly grinds even at a very rapid rate of killing. The second stages had no twists or novel elements, and in at least one case, the time requirement is really tight. The bosses who come out in Stage 3 are just long, dull tank-and-spank bosses. So even in a good, friendly group, these were basically drawn-out sessions of whack-a-mole, without any spark or novelty to make you think at all or even any scripted content where you said, "Hm, that's kind of cool." All of us were in the queue for Tier 3 at the same time and not a single scenario popped all night long.

[Cylus]

They are tactical whilst maneuvering into position to kill a BW without dying, but once you get there you spam your buttons like anyone else and hope the BW doesn't root and run before you can kill him.  Tactics go out the window once you actually get into a fight mostly, beyond learning to swallow your pride and run away..

There are ways around that root and plenty of options after your initial opening as a WE; while I'm sure less experienced people will just go in there spamming more than usual, in the end it will just get you killed.  So yea, I disagree with your statement but will note that, as a WE, I'm obviously biased.

[Vinadil]

Funny thing about knockbacks... they don't do any damage no matter how far you fall.  So, last night we were sieging Passwatch in Talabecland, and if you get booted in just the right spot you fly a Looooooong way all the way out of the RvR lake.  So a Dwarf IB friend gets booted and lands in the middle of 4 lower level, RVR tagged Destro doing some PvE quests.  He kills them and I can only imagine what the text/voice of those players was like after seeing a dwarf fall out of the sky and then chop them to bits.

[squirrel]

He kills them and I can only imagine what the text/voice of those players was like after seeing a dwarf fall out of the sky and then chop them to bits.

Damn that's fucking awesome.

[Paelos]

Lava should have a small damage component and force you to leap out of it like a Warner Bros cartoon with its butt of fire.

I prefer the Mario 64 approach to lava, where you get shot up in the air screaming while holding your butt and kicking your legs wildly. I think that's what you're going for there.

[Khaldun]

See, this is what I like about knockbacks: they really do have a vaguely twitchy, skill element to them. Knock someone the wrong way and you haven't really done anything useful. Really knock them the wrong way and you've done them a big favor--I've had people knock me forward along my path when I'm a flag carrier, further away from the pursuit. And without lava, getting knocked way out of the playing field is just a really radical form of crowd-control, not a one-shot kill. I've knocked people off of the top of STC only to have them come bounding right back up while there is still a heated struggle for the flag.

[Vinadil]

So much of my experience in WAR has to do with the fact that it seemed to be designed for a Guild even more than a solo player.  This is bad for them in regards to competing with WoW for the average player.  But, it is great for them in regards to competing with WoW for guilds like mine that are about Guild accomplishment instead of Personal Gain.  We run PQs quite a bit.  Some of them are interesting or difficult (check out the ones in Empire CH 11 if you want something less bland... or at least more challenging).  But, they are also one of the most efficient ways to level a guild.  AND, you can run them with the whole guild.  You are not forced to tell people, "Ohhhhh we only need 10 people for this dungeon run... you other 3 just wait and we will let you play with the guild later".  Everything WAR does is about including my guildmates and accomplishing things as a guild.  Even our low level folks feel like they contribute everytime they are online and the Guild XP bar moves up a little.

I am hearing these same responses from other guilds like ours.  They are loving the experience of the game and the guild-experiences they are having while playing.  I guess time will tell if there are enough of those experiences or enough people enjoying them to fill enough servers to keep the game going.

[Nebu]

WAR seems best played by a large guild made up of a collection of regular 6-person groups.  Tight communication, large raiding parties, and big guild benefits all maximize abilities. 

Now... I just need to find 5 other people to play with regularly!