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Author Topic: Star Wars : The Clone Wars  (Read 13437 times)
Riggswolfe
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Reply #70 on: May 13, 2020, 09:56:20 AM

I think it was intended in Lucas clumsy way. Windu's last words are literally a mirror of what Sidius tells Anakin early in the movie about Dooku "he's too dangerous to keep alive".

And Anakin's reply is the same. "It's not the Jedi way." It was very conscious mirroring.

And Lucas clearly intended to show the Jedi out of touch with two exceptions. Yoda and Qui Gon. Qui Gon especially was ahead of the curve and knew the Jedi were too embroiled in politics. And watch Yoda everytime something comes up that ties the Jedi further to the war or to politics. He looks super uncomfortable every single time.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
jgsugden
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Reply #71 on: May 13, 2020, 10:41:11 AM

...
And Anakin's reply is the same. "It's not the Jedi way." It was very conscious mirroring.

And Lucas clearly intended to show the Jedi out of touch with two exceptions. Yoda and Qui Gon. Qui Gon especially was ahead of the curve and knew the Jedi were too embroiled in politics. And watch Yoda everytime something comes up that ties the Jedi further to the war or to politics. He looks super uncomfortable every single time.
Do you hate us so as to ask us to rewatch those movies?

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Threash
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Reply #72 on: May 13, 2020, 11:09:03 AM

There was other stuff too like forcing Anakin to spy on Palpatine, WE knew he was Sidius but they didn't. They were just spying on the head of the Republic on basically a hunch.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #73 on: May 13, 2020, 11:17:04 AM

...
And Anakin's reply is the same. "It's not the Jedi way." It was very conscious mirroring.

And Lucas clearly intended to show the Jedi out of touch with two exceptions. Yoda and Qui Gon. Qui Gon especially was ahead of the curve and knew the Jedi were too embroiled in politics. And watch Yoda everytime something comes up that ties the Jedi further to the war or to politics. He looks super uncomfortable every single time.
Do you hate us so as to ask us to rewatch those movies?

This is all in Revenge of the Sith which isn't a bad movie in my opinion. Especially when ranked among other Star Wars movies.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
jgsugden
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Reply #74 on: May 13, 2020, 12:03:44 PM

Not a bad movie.  I even put it above Return of the Jedi.  However, it is far from a good movie.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Threash
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Reply #75 on: May 13, 2020, 12:38:03 PM

It's better now because of the clone wars.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #76 on: May 14, 2020, 02:07:55 AM

I think it was intended in Lucas clumsy way. Windu's last words are literally a mirror of what Sidius tells Anakin early in the movie about Dooku "he's too dangerous to keep alive".

It was definintely intended, and often clumsy.  The entirety of the prequels is about how the Jedi got it all wrong.  The most obvious example to me is about love and attachments.  Their dogmatic stance on attachments is the undercurrent of what pushes Anakin to the dark side.  Obi Wan and Yoda continue to fail to learn the lesson with Luke Skywalker, who told them to go fuck themselves and obliterated that bullshit once and for all.  While also saving the universe.  The Jedi are basically exactly wrong about most things up to that point.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Threash
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Reply #77 on: May 14, 2020, 07:59:40 AM

Cept for Qui Gon and a couple others from the Clone Wars (Plo Koon was a bro). Anakin needed a father figure that realized the Jedi were mostly full of crap, not someone "like a brother" who completely bought into their nonsense.

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Khaldun
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Reply #78 on: May 14, 2020, 10:21:30 AM

Among many things I hate about the sequels is that they had a chance to really bring the entire arc of the Jedi to a smart close. You might hate TLJ, but at least it tried to push that part of the whole saga into view, maybe with out any ideas about what to do with it. By the end, I really wish Rey had ended up saying, "If you use the Force to protect and guide, you have to be deeply attached to life, to people, to love, to justice--you can't be a monk living up in a temple, you can't be living apart" and that her story arc had given that sentiment some grounding in her adventures.

That's for some future SW creator, I guess. If ever.
eldaec
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Reply #79 on: May 14, 2020, 02:48:30 PM

Going one better, now imagine Ahsoka was a main character and she'd said that at the end of the sequels.

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Velorath
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Reply #80 on: May 14, 2020, 04:03:56 PM

Among many things I hate about the sequels is that they had a chance to really bring the entire arc of the Jedi to a smart close. You might hate TLJ, but at least it tried to push that part of the whole saga into view, maybe with out any ideas about what to do with it. By the end, I really wish Rey had ended up saying, "If you use the Force to protect and guide, you have to be deeply attached to life, to people, to love, to justice--you can't be a monk living up in a temple, you can't be living apart" and that her story arc had given that sentiment some grounding in her adventures.

That's for some future SW creator, I guess. If ever.


On the one hand you're not wrong. On the other though, in the OT details about what the Jedi order actually was or did were largely glossed over. What we know about them from those original movies is essentially that they were an order of peacekeepers who used the Force and had lightsabers, and they were hunted down and killed by Vader.

What we eventually get filled in by the prequels seems almost out of place because they're portrayed as a fairly major force in galactic politics. In the OT they seem to be considered almost myth, fairy tale, or rumor ("hokey religions and ancient weapons", "sad devotion to that ancient religion") or something to not entirely be taken seriously, whereas with how they are depicted in the prequels most people a little older than Luke should be able to remember when these guys were the arbiters of intergalactic policy disputes.

It's one of the many instances where the insistence on trying to fill in the details of the setting after the fact just serve to make everything less interesting, so in that case I'm not really interested in the arc of the Jedi Order as a thing. If I have one concern about the Mandalorian going into the second season after really liking the first is that we started with something that was largely self contained and now we're getting this Boba Fett, Ahsoka, Darksaber stuff that's ties into things I haven't and likely will never watch or read. I'm sure it will still be a good show and won't require extra knowledge but it's just getting back to a mindset of making the universe smaller by connecting everything.
Khaldun
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Reply #81 on: May 14, 2020, 04:37:22 PM

They will have to find a way to give just enough explanation for the dramatic punch of a given episode with the rest implied or left to fan interpretation.

They did that pretty well with the Ugnaut character--you don't get endless unspooling background on the Ugnauts, most people probably don't realize they've seen them before in the movies, etc.

So it will be super-fine if Ahsoka's post-ROTJ status gives them a chance to show (rather than tell) what a Force-using person who isn't a Jedi and isn't a Sith but who was dedicated to doing the right thing and fighting for the right cause looks like, and has that create a template going forward. For all we know, there's a bunch of trained Force users running around in the sequels who want nothing to do with Luke or Palpatine/Kylo/Snoke, who are strictly local operators. Maybe people who don't use lightsabers or have the esoteric powers Jedi and Sith have developed, even. I could do with some low-level Force using criminals, con men, pilots, detectives, healers, do-gooders, eccentric professors, archaeologists, etc. who pointedly don't care about galactic-level conflicts but who are in touch with some kind of deeper mystery. The Mandalorian is a lot more likely to sketch out a SW universe with that element in it than any movie might.

Clone Wars did enough additions to the canon, some from the EU, that could also be used in that work.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #82 on: May 14, 2020, 04:43:39 PM

Cept for Qui Gon and a couple others from the Clone Wars (Plo Koon was a bro). Anakin needed a father figure that realized the Jedi were mostly full of crap, not someone "like a brother" who completely bought into their nonsense.

You should watch Dave Filoni's recent comments on this. It's all over Youtube or in the Mandalorian documentary on Disney+. He basically says that the single most important battle in the prequels is the Duel of the Fates because if Qui Gon had won he'd have been a father figure to Anakin and would have been able to keep him from going down the dark path he did. It's really fascinating stuff and more proof Dave Filoni needs to be Star Wars Kevin Feige yesterday.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Threash
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Reply #83 on: May 14, 2020, 06:15:08 PM

Among many things I hate about the sequels is that they had a chance to really bring the entire arc of the Jedi to a smart close. You might hate TLJ, but at least it tried to push that part of the whole saga into view, maybe with out any ideas about what to do with it. By the end, I really wish Rey had ended up saying, "If you use the Force to protect and guide, you have to be deeply attached to life, to people, to love, to justice--you can't be a monk living up in a temple, you can't be living apart" and that her story arc had given that sentiment some grounding in her adventures.

That's for some future SW creator, I guess. If ever.


On the one hand you're not wrong. On the other though, in the OT details about what the Jedi order actually was or did were largely glossed over. What we know about them from those original movies is essentially that they were an order of peacekeepers who used the Force and had lightsabers, and they were hunted down and killed by Vader.

What we eventually get filled in by the prequels seems almost out of place because they're portrayed as a fairly major force in galactic politics. In the OT they seem to be considered almost myth, fairy tale, or rumor ("hokey religions and ancient weapons", "sad devotion to that ancient religion") or something to not entirely be taken seriously, whereas with how they are depicted in the prequels most people a little older than Luke should be able to remember when these guys were the arbiters of intergalactic policy disputes.


There was a few thousand Jedi in a galaxy of trillions, what's more out of place is that anyone outside political circles even knew about them.

I am the .00000001428%
jgsugden
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Reply #84 on: May 14, 2020, 07:03:30 PM

They're Legends.  Most people in that universe have heard the tales of Jedi like we've heard tales of Samurai, Knights, and Ethical Politicians.  Plus, they play pivotal roles in some of the most significant wars in the history of the Republic/Empire.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Velorath
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Reply #85 on: May 14, 2020, 07:41:52 PM

They're Legends.  Most people in that universe have heard the tales of Jedi like we've heard tales of Samurai, Knights, and Ethical Politicians.  Plus, they play pivotal roles in some of the most significant wars in the history of the Republic/Empire.

Samurai and Knights were hundreds of years ago for us. Around the time of ANH, Jedi had only been gone for just under 20 years. In theory the majority of people in the SW galaxy at the time of the OT were alive when the Jedi were around (especially since Yoda's race isn't likely the only one that can live for hundreds of years).
jgsugden
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Reply #86 on: May 14, 2020, 07:49:40 PM

Samurai and Knights were hundreds of years ago for us. Around the time of ANH, Jedi had only been gone for just under 20 years. In theory the majority of people in the SW galaxy at the time of the OT were alive when the Jedi were around (especially since Yoda's race isn't likely the only one that can live for hundreds of years).
There are still Knights and Sumurai today.  But putting that aside, the history makes them a legend.  Whether they were living legends or defunct legends, their legend stretched the universe over the eras in which they were present.  That is why they were so well known.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #87 on: May 14, 2020, 08:29:44 PM

There are still knights today? Feudal nobility who suit up in armor to go to war over land claims? Society for Creative Anachronism doesn't count--by that standard there are still everything cosplayed at your average SF convention.

But I think with SW and the attitude we see in ANH, I think the only plausible way to spin it, even given Darth Vader's Jedi hunting operations and the Empire's propaganda, is that Jedi weren't so active and so numerous that they made much of a difference in most things, and that for most people pre-Clone Wars they were already kind of a myth or legend or even just plain not known. I mean, look at the ordinary courtiers and so on at Naboo--they weren't all that "Oh yeah Jedi" like an FBI agent or a SWAT Team had just shown up. The Gungans had plain never really heard of them. The Jedi had accepted that in non-Republic areas they had no real authority (hence Qui-Gonn not just busting Anakin out of slavery on the grounds that slavery is simply unacceptable) and I think generally just did not get involved with nearly all that. Their presence at the Trade Federation blockade felt almost ceremonial until Sideous rang up and said "attack them". Etc.--it's all consistent with the Jedi being already kind of irrelevant and defanged and remote and stultified hence being easy for most people to just forget about or regard as "fake news".
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