Empire: Total War

[Daspied]

Is no one doing battles online through Steam with this? I'd be interested in a scheduled hour or two long Naval battle or Army attack, and a friend and I tried it on his network and it worked vaguely ok.

I'd be willing to schedule a time, maybe we can get a few together to do a 2 vs 2 or something.

On the journalist note, I think they tend to look after them selves, or maybe they get payed based on how many games they review. Honestly I don't know, but the general rating seems to be based off. O-hai this game looks purdy, good job company x. I don't need to go into actual game play as a game that looks this good must preform!

[dusematic]

Game reviewers obviously played the first couple chapters of the tutorial on easy difficulty, stuck their fingers up their butts, and called it macaroni.

[taolurker]

I agree the AI is still seriously borked, but as some people have mentioned before there are mods that help with this.

As far as the reviews go, I agree that someone paid for the good reviews it's getting, because at launch it was a bug riddled stinking pile, with a rushed "sequel" feel. I like many of the updates, changes to campaign, and also units/technology, but with the AI severely crippled and the amount of bugs and unfinished stuff (Multi-player Campaign?) it definitely received some form of blow job scores.

This was part of the reason I only played it in small doses, trying different nations, and why it now maybe deserves a look from people being disappointed waiting for the needed changes (because of the patch).

I'm actually at the point now where enough is fixed to recommend this, if you were a fan of the series, although waiting for a price drop would also be included.

[dusematic]

There's no way in hell you should be recommending this game to anyone.  Do we own the same game?  I mean are we playing the same game?  Because the game I've been playing has AI that declares war on you and then sends an army comprised of one unit into your base, followed by no further action for the rest of the war.  The game I've been playing, I've never seen a godamn naval invasion, in, as someone pointed out, a game largely built around the idea of naval expansion.  This game is a disaster and a joke.  I honestly don't see how this game could be fun for anyone.  Put it this way, if your idea of grand strategy game is one where you're never facing even the barest whisper of losing in any way shape or form, then this game is for you.  I mean this is the type of game where you could let your 5 year old nephew take over for 40-50 years and not have to worry about losing any territory.  Recommend this game?  Give me a fucking break.  I recommend you put this game in the trash can.  It's garbage.

[Sky]

Hmm, probably worth checking out.

[Paelos]

The AI never attacks. This is true. They will declare war on you and do nothing except wait for you to crush them. The game is fucked until they patch in some balls for the computer.

[HaemishM]

I honestly don't see how this game could be fun for anyone.

YMMV

It's fun for me. I modded it to make the AI better. I didn't have nearly the bugs that most other folks complained about, though there were definitely some stability crashes before the patches.

It's obvious you really really hate this series of games. But that's the funny part about a sequel - you ought to know going in what you're going to get. This series is the Madden NFL of wargames.

[Engels]

Nevermind the AI. I still don't understand how anyone can sit through the endless AI turns. Over a minute for me each time I hit 'end turn'. Often times you're just waiting on army buildup or construction, and there's not much to do during your own turn. You hit end turn, and have to wait a minute. This is/was the game breaker for me, more than anything else.

[NowhereMan]

Campaign AI sucks, is the battle AI just as borked? Will the enemy army just stand at the other side of the battle field and wait for you to pound them with artillery or is there at least scope for awesome battles? I know that campaign AI has never been especially sophisticated in TW games but they've usually done a good enough job on the battlefield (with appropriate difficulty levels) to be entertaining. At least if you enjoy watching hundreds of little animated minions fighting to the death in the name of your cause.

[Big Gulp]

Nevermind the AI. I still don't understand how anyone can sit through the endless AI turns. Over a minute for me each time I hit 'end turn'. Often times you're just waiting on army buildup or construction, and there's not much to do during your own turn. You hit end turn, and have to wait a minute. This is/was the game breaker for me, more than anything else.

Umm, I grew up with a C64 that had a tape drive.  A one minute wait is fucking nothing.

Also, what Haemish said.  Much like the Elder Scrolls series you're a fool to play the vanilla form of any Total War game.  As soon as mods hit the scene you snatch 'em up.

[Engels]

Umm, I grew up with a C64 that had a tape drive.  A one minute wait is fucking nothing.

I grew up with the same. But its not like 1 minute and then I have stuff to do for 5 minutes. Its like 1 minute, I have 15 seconds of stuff to do, then I have to wait another minute, then another 15 seconds, then another minute. Am I missing something here? How is this not driving people batshit?

[taolurker]

dusematic is acting like he's been seriously chaffed by this game, and although I had some buyers remorse, it's still a solid game and I've been playing it for many hours longer than many games.

I also am a huge fan of the series, of which none I bought until they were reduced in price because of the massive amount of bugs.

The AI never attacks. This is true. They will declare war on you and do nothing except wait for you to crush them. The game is fucked until they patch in some balls for the computer.

The new patch was why I was posting here.

There's no way in hell you should be recommending this game to anyone.  Do we own the same game?

 

When I decided to buy, I knew full well that it was an unpatched, just released, not heavily tested, version of other games I enjoyed. It's waaay less broken with the new patch (2 months after release) and now at least it's worth spending money on. I bought the game knowing I was beta testing it, and was on the forums and sending bug submissions... plus many many crash reports through windows. Not bitching and cursing into a text box.

I mean are we playing the same game?  Because the game I've been playing has AI that declares war on you and then sends an army comprised of one unit into your base, followed by no further action for the rest of the war.  The game I've been playing, I've never seen a godamn naval invasion, in, as someone pointed out, a game largely built around the idea of naval expansion.

The game had a massive bug where the computer couldn't figure out how to get troops to board ships, and believe it or not it was a release bug for the last 3 Total Wars if memory serves me correct. I knew about it from reading the E:TW forums, and in lurking in and out of this thread never saw it mentioned once. For me it was a reason to not play that much and just learn about units, benefits to improvements or buildings, which is probably why I'm not as jaded as you.

This game is a disaster and a joke.  I honestly don't see how this game could be fun for anyone.  Put it this way, if your idea of grand strategy game is one where you're never facing even the barest whisper of losing in any way shape or form, then this game is for you.  I mean this is the type of game where you could let your 5 year old nephew take over for 40-50 years and not have to worry about losing any territory.  Recommend this game?  Give me a fucking break.  I recommend you put this game in the trash can.  It's garbage.

I happen to be enjoying the game, and yes the AI is really bad (only on Hard were naval battles even remotely challenging) but that's where the mod helped. What difficulty were you playing on? Were you just stacking troops infinitely? I was doing lots of mismatched battles. Instead of long sieges I was attacking a city with 4 units to their 12 with citizens and winning... or having a blast losing and trying the battle over.

I'd say releasing the closed minded hatred, and maybe trying it again with the new patch and a mod, but then again both of us are trolling a 10 page thread, dusematic.

Umm, I grew up with a C64 that had a tape drive.  A one minute wait is fucking nothing.

I grew up with the same. But its not like 1 minute and then I have stuff to do for 5 minutes. Its like 1 minute, I have 15 seconds of stuff to do, then I have to wait another minute, then another 15 seconds, then another minute. Am I missing something here? How is this not driving people batshit?

You can select to turn off auto managing, and micromanage stuff, which does make for more campaign map time, but I also noticed severe differences on some machines. When there's lots of units and you are trying to get the 100 regions conquered Achievement, it takes a full five minutes to load a game or map sometimes on one machine of mine. I also was trading save games of really intense lopsided battles to try and win with friends.

Anyone wanting to maybe arrange a weekend Steam battle or something send me a PM. Maybe I'll start a thread in the Steam forum if there's interest this weekend.

[dusematic]

I honestly don't see how this game could be fun for anyone.

YMMV

It's fun for me. I modded it to make the AI better. I didn't have nearly the bugs that most other folks complained about, though there were definitely some stability crashes before the patches.

It's obvious you really really hate this series of games. But that's the funny part about a sequel - you ought to know going in what you're going to get. This series is the Madden NFL of wargames.

DUDE.  You MODDED the game.  I shouldn't have to MOD the game for it work.  I mean, I'm happy for you that you enjoy playing the MODDED version of the game.  I truly am.  But I don't really feel like delving that deep with the game.  Nor should I have to.  And if I'm talking about the standard edition of the game, and you're talking about the MODDED version, then what you have to say isn't really relevant, save to those also playing MODDED versions of the game. Because we're not playing the same game.  And since you seem like a pretty smart fella most of the time, I'm pretty sure the MOD must be a pretty big fucking overhaul, since I can't imagine anyone with two brain cells to rub together challenged in the slightest by the AI on the hardest difficulty. So no, my mileage won't vary.  The game is garbage. End of story.  I'm sure you can MOD Barbie Island Princess into being a stellar game if you spend enough time on it. 


Edit:  By the way, funny you bring up Madden.  Here are my thoughts on Madden (still relevant): http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10709.0

The problem is for both Madden and Total War, they're pretty much the only game in town of their kind.  So I invariably end up getting them, and invariably end up disappointed.  Not because the games suck, but because THEY GET WORSE. 

[dusematic]

Campaign AI sucks, is the battle AI just as borked? Will the enemy army just stand at the other side of the battle field and wait for you to pound them with artillery or is there at least scope for awesome battles? I know that campaign AI has never been especially sophisticated in TW games but they've usually done a good enough job on the battlefield (with appropriate difficulty levels) to be entertaining. At least if you enjoy watching hundreds of little animated minions fighting to the death in the name of your cause.

The battle AI is fucked as well. 

[dusematic]

dusematic is acting like he's been seriously chaffed by this game, and although I had some buyers remorse, it's still a solid game and I've been playing it for many hours longer than many games.

I also am a huge fan of the series, of which none I bought until they were reduced in price because of the massive amount of bugs.

The AI never attacks. This is true. They will declare war on you and do nothing except wait for you to crush them. The game is fucked until they patch in some balls for the computer.

The new patch was why I was posting here.

There's no way in hell you should be recommending this game to anyone.  Do we own the same game?

 

When I decided to buy, I knew full well that it was an unpatched, just released, not heavily tested, version of other games I enjoyed. It's waaay less broken with the new patch (2 months after release) and now at least it's worth spending money on. I bought the game knowing I was beta testing it, and was on the forums and sending bug submissions... plus many many crash reports through windows. Not bitching and cursing into a text box.

I mean are we playing the same game?  Because the game I've been playing has AI that declares war on you and then sends an army comprised of one unit into your base, followed by no further action for the rest of the war.  The game I've been playing, I've never seen a godamn naval invasion, in, as someone pointed out, a game largely built around the idea of naval expansion.

The game had a massive bug where the computer couldn't figure out how to get troops to board ships, and believe it or not it was a release bug for the last 3 Total Wars if memory serves me correct. I knew about it from reading the E:TW forums, and in lurking in and out of this thread never saw it mentioned once. For me it was a reason to not play that much and just learn about units, benefits to improvements or buildings, which is probably why I'm not as jaded as you.

This game is a disaster and a joke.  I honestly don't see how this game could be fun for anyone.  Put it this way, if your idea of grand strategy game is one where you're never facing even the barest whisper of losing in any way shape or form, then this game is for you.  I mean this is the type of game where you could let your 5 year old nephew take over for 40-50 years and not have to worry about losing any territory.  Recommend this game?  Give me a fucking break.  I recommend you put this game in the trash can.  It's garbage.

I happen to be enjoying the game, and yes the AI is really bad (only on Hard were naval battles even remotely challenging) but that's where the mod helped. What difficulty were you playing on? Were you just stacking troops infinitely? I was doing lots of mismatched battles. Instead of long sieges I was attacking a city with 4 units to their 12 with citizens and winning... or having a blast losing and trying the battle over.

I'd say releasing the closed minded hatred, and maybe trying it again with the new patch and a mod, but then again both of us are trolling a 10 page thread, dusematic.

Umm, I grew up with a C64 that had a tape drive.  A one minute wait is fucking nothing.

I grew up with the same. But its not like 1 minute and then I have stuff to do for 5 minutes. Its like 1 minute, I have 15 seconds of stuff to do, then I have to wait another minute, then another 15 seconds, then another minute. Am I missing something here? How is this not driving people batshit?

You can select to turn off auto managing, and micromanage stuff, which does make for more campaign map time, but I also noticed severe differences on some machines. When there's lots of units and you are trying to get the 100 regions conquered Achievement, it takes a full five minutes to load a game or map sometimes on one machine of mine. I also was trading save games of really intense lopsided battles to try and win with friends.

Anyone wanting to maybe arrange a weekend Steam battle or something send me a PM. Maybe I'll start a thread in the Steam forum if there's interest this weekend.

1.  Once again, my comments on the game reflect the current game client. 

2.  Once again, I don't give a flying fuck about your experiences with a MODDED version of the game.  I don't feel like fucking with MODS to enjoy a game.  Maybe I should, and maybe I will, but I shouldn't have to.

3. I shouldn't have to fight with one hand behind my back, and handicap myself by fighting "mismatched" battles.  That's retarded.  Play2crush.

4. I know I come off as a pretty big dick (I am) but don't take my rants about the game as a personal attack. 

5.  Try not to SirBruce me ever again if you can help it.

[Paelos]

Well Duse is off the deep end at this point.

[dusematic]

LOL. Par for the course.  But I do think it's madness to have people talking about how great the game is while sweeping under the rug the fact they have downloaded 250 meg mods.  Look, I'm glad they found a way to enjoy the game, but not everyone is up for that.  And I don't think anyone has raised any valid points of contention with anything I've said about the game in its natural state.  So in that sense, I'm the voice of reason here. 

[NowhereMan]

Haemish's Elder Scroll comparison was a good one. This is a game that, for the last couple of iterations, has only really been great with mods. You are effectively (at least if you want a great game) paying for an engine and basic AI set up that you can change around a lot. If you were having to pay for the mods or if we were in the bad old days of 56K where it took you a week to download a single mod then you'd have a very valid point in complaining about it, as it is mods basically act as fan made patches to the game that fix broken shit. You can be pissed off that the devs haven't fixed these problems themselves but I guess I don't understand why it's fundamentall different that you get the 'patch' from fans vs. official developers.

Unless your problem is that you're not paying the fans for the work they contribute but I don't get the feeling you'd be happy with paying less for the game overall and then paying for the mods that fix it. Would you genuinely be this pissed off if you bought a game that was borked and had to wait 2 months for an official patch that fixed it? Bearing in mind in this case, fixed means makes it fun to play not just stops it from crashing every time you click on a navy after you've had a city selected or something.

[HaemishM]

DUDE.  You MODDED the game. 

I enjoyed it on vanilla and the modded version has just made the game better. That's what mods are for. You obviously don't like the game or the series at all in anything other than the concept. I'm finding it hard to imagine why you'd have bought the game KNOWING what you know about the game. I knew the same things yet I enjoyed all the previous games in the series despite their warts. The mods just enhanced my enjoyment.

EDIT: And because Duse brought it up, the last version of Darth Mod that I downloaded was a 56k RAR file download. It required copying 2 files into two different directories. It was harder to FIND the mod than download and install it.

I played a short campaign (the Austrian one til 1750) SANS mods. I didn't mod it until my second campaign game. I STILL ENJOYED IT.

Yes, Total War is the only game of its kind, like Madden is the only football game. And yes, they both have flaws that carry over from version to version. And Duse, YOU KNOW THE PROBLEMS WITH EACH VERSION AND YOU STILL PAID FOR IT. So you either expect when you plunk down your money that you'll be buying a game you know you will need to mod to enjoy, or you don't fucking buy the game. I'm hardly one to tell someone to stop nerdraging, but I think you're nerdraging is bordering on the ridiculous when YOU KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT BEFORE YOU BOUGHT IT.

[taolurker]

I also played E:TW both vanilla and modded, on various difficulties and had done so with previous versions as well.

Mods enhance games, and if you play PC games without modding you are missing 30% of the reason to keep playing on a PC. I can't even imagine some games without mods.

It being broken enough to need a mod right now is exactly because it was released March 4th, and is only 2 months + in "early adopter beta". Being informed about the series and previous bugs, this game probably did inherit much of it's audience from fans of the series, and I think everyone is used to release patching being the norm in PC gaming (another rant/thread altogether).

I think dusematic needs a console. LOL ;)

BTW in a serious twist of irony, I was playing since the patch without a single issue up until today.

[dusematic]

DUDE.  You MODDED the game. 

I played a short campaign (the Austrian one til 1750) SANS mods. I didn't mod it until my second campaign game. I STILL ENJOYED IT.

I think you're nerdraging is bordering on the ridiculous when YOU KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT BEFORE YOU BOUGHT IT.

1.  The AI DOESN'T ATTACK. (Even Paelos backed me up on that point, and we're not exactly bff's).  I don't know what's so hard to understand.  At that point, we can end the discussion.  The game is shit.

2.  The AI was never quite that bad.  Like I said, the game has been getting worse through every iteration. I guess I should have expected that this game would be even worse, but for some reason, ever the optimist, I hoped there would be improvement.

3.  But you're right that I should probably download a mod.

[dusematic]

You are effectively (at least if you want a great game) paying for an engine and basic AI set up that you can change around a lot.

No.  You are.


Edit:  I got the anger out of my system.  I think this is the same sort of thing as Madden.  You'll never read a Madden review (except for mine) that mentions the paralytic menu lag and game chop omnipresent in their game since 2008.  All the fanboys ignore it.  This is the same thing.  This is a game I DESPERATELY want to like.  But for some strange reason, I can't eat shit and exclaim, "mmmm, delicious!"

[dusematic]

I think dusematic needs a console. LOL ;)

QFT

[HaemishM]

You'll never read a Madden review (except for mine) that mentions the paralytic menu lag and game chop omnipresent in their game since 2008. 

Actually, both my '08 and '09 reviews of Madden for the Wii make very pointed criticisms of the shit menus Madden uses. A problem that has infected all the EA Sports titles on the Wii. It's like they took all the shittiness of the Battlefield 2 menus and rolled it into Madden.

As for Empire, the AI does attack, it just happens to do so as piddly raids. But as has been said, it's a holdover from the other versions of Total War.

[Paelos]

I guess if we're counting attack as "running 3 units around in a circle pillaging my farms after I took your province center away from you with ease," then yes the AI does attack. Still after 3 turns and the populace stops bitching long enough for me to repair things in town, I just stomp the remnants and enjoy 100 years of prosperity in that province free of reprisal.

[NowhereMan]

The thing Empire's got going for it over Madden is that TW hasn't cockblocked anyone else from developing a tactical game using the Enlightenment era setting through licensing deals. I fully understand why people rage at Madden because it's not improved and it actively prevents other studios from competing but I don't get the same level of anger at TW games. Yes it's frustrating that they haven't fixed that shit in the last 5 games but otoh if you've been buying those games you've got no excuse for being surprised at this.

[dusematic]

You'll never read a Madden review (except for mine) that mentions the paralytic menu lag and game chop omnipresent in their game since 2008. 

As for Empire, the AI does attack, it just happens to do so as piddly raids. But as has been said, it's a holdover from the other versions of Total War.

See, I can't understand you defending this game or enjoying it in the slightest in its natural state after realizing this.  My understanding of the Total War series, after having played every game, is that the AI was never this impotent.  I recall facing stacks, and being pummeled by armies.  Go play Medieval 2 again, you'll face quite the endless stream of Mongols.  Question:  Can you give me a good rundown of the more seminal enhancements to the campaign AI in the mods you use (that you've noticed)? 

To me, the game is inexcusable, and CA should be pilloried.  But I think I'm done ranting about the game for now, it's been 3 pages and I've run out of steam.  But if you can get me excited about this game by talking about the mods (of which I know nothing) that would be cool.


Edit:  BTW, good job on calling EA out on their menu bullshit.  I think you must be the only other person in America to do so besides me at this point.  The lag in their game is inexcusable and it gives me a conniption fit every time I think about it or read a review or talk to someone and it's not mentioned or recognized as a fundamental problem with the game.  How the fuck are you supposed to enjoy a franchise mode when you're knee deep in statistical menus and staring down the barrel of crippling menu lag every time your thumbs strokes the digital pad?

[dusematic]

I guess if we're counting attack as "running 3 units around in a circle pillaging my farms after I took your province center away from you with ease," then yes the AI does attack. Still after 3 turns and the populace stops bitching long enough for me to repair things in town, I just stomp the remnants and enjoy 100 years of prosperity in that province free of reprisal.

So true.  I think I would have had a stroke if it weren't for you in this thread.  It's so fucking Twilight Zone when people are cool with shit that bugs you.

[HaemishM]

The only Empire mod I've used so far is Darth Mod. It changes the AI on the battlefield, as well as many of the unit strengths, costs, upkeep costs, etc. While I can't say it helps with the naval invasion bug (since I played Russia with it and there just isn't much naval invasion to do there), it definitely makes the AI a bit more intelligent. It doesn't send the piddling raids that the vanilla AI does. Battle AI is much improved, as the opposition does make a concerted effort to flank your lines at every opportunity. It really makes the cavalry aggressive.

Here is a list of some of the mods for Empire. You can read more about them there. Frankly, though, I don't think you'll be happy based on what you've said so far. There are some things at the core level (naval invasions) that still require CA's attention to fix.

As for being cool with bugs, I look at it this way. Most people HATED Red Steel for the bugs and gameplay. I loved it. It's still one of my favorite games of all time. There are some games for which your enjoyment outweighs flaws that are obvious to anyone, even to you as you play the game. The Total War series is that way for me as well. I can see some of the flaws but I enjoy the total package enough that they don't bother me. As I said, YMMV.

[dusematic]

Dude, quick question:  If I install a mod, is there a separate launch icon?  Like, will it interfere with me loading up the standard game?  And what about the next time Steam has a patch ready?  Will that fuck up the mod?

[taolurker]

Dude, do you want us to install it for you too?

It's got really easy instructions and an installation video on the forum page inside the link Haemish gave. It uses the same shortcut to launch the game you currently use, and the hardest part of installation is locating the folder you copy two files into.

It might interfere with previous saves, and most mods recommend you starting from a new game to not cause compatibility issues or crashes. Also if you remove the mod, common sense would say that a save using the mod probably will cause problems.

Patches won't normally change the mod files, and I haven't had a patch interfere with a mod already installed, or require any adjustment to either file. Mods do get updates too which are separate, and need to be done manually, but again as an early adopter you shouldn't expect everything to work perfectly. Two and a half months is early in the life cycle of any game (especially a TW sequel) to have everything working bug free.

dusematic I find it hard to imagine you owning the other TW games on release day, because a similar update with Medieval 2 wasn't out until the 3rd or 4th month.

While I can't say it helps with the naval invasion bug (since I played Russia with it and there just isn't much naval invasion to do there), it definitely makes the AI a bit more intelligent. It doesn't send the piddling raids that the vanilla AI does. Battle AI is much improved, as the opposition does make a concerted effort to flank your lines at every opportunity. It really makes the cavalry aggressive.

It also makes the ship combat AI work infinitely better than the vanilla version, which alone made it worth it for me.

I've been playing without the mod on my most recent campaign, with the new patch, and the AI now does attempt Naval invasions and moves troops via ships to disputed regions.

[dusematic]

I just wanted to know if I installed a mod whether I'd have to uninstall it to play the regular game.  But after looking at the mods they don't seem that great.  Haemish was right in that I don't think it's going to be a silver bullet to automagically make a horrible game palatable.  Also, I never said anything about owning the rest of the TW games on "release day."  Though I do own them. 

[Tebonas]

So, it is at a good patch level now? And are the Elite units anything but a ripoff (even for 5 dollars)?

[HaemishM]

Couldn't tell you about the elite units. I'm sure they wouldn't make that huge of a difference. But Steam is selling both special edition and regular versions for 50% off this weekend. $25 for Empire is a good deal even if you have problems with the formula. I haven't played it for at least a month (felt like taking a break until there were some more complete mods and other things took up my attention span) so I can't say what the patches have fixed.

[dusematic]

So, it is at a good patch level now? And are the Elite units anything but a ripoff (even for 5 dollars)?

The elite units are a ripoff.  Originally it was $20 more for 5 extra units.  That's such complete bullshit I won't even bother getting angry. Res ipsa loquitur and all that jazz.


It's not at a good patch level.  They are releasing a new patch next week, but if you've read any of my posts in this thread, you can be sure that I find it an extremely dubious proposition that this will render the game suddenly palatable.  I'd wait to buy this game until it's bargain binned and fully patched.  But go back and read everything I wrote to make sure my thoughts on the game jive with you.  Some people are puzzlingly more forgiving than I.  I will say that if you fancy yourself a armchair general and only feel satisfied with victory if it is wrest forcefully from the breast of the enemy, then you will detest the AI in this game and ultimately the game itself.  The AI is a fucking abortion.