Empire: Total War

[Big Gulp]

How do they balance it so that Rome isn't a runaway power?  Do they start you off earlier so you're clawing for provinces?

Exactly.  It starts you off in 280 BC before Rome managed to subjugate most of Italy.  Southern Italy is still Magna Graecia (Greater Greece).  Keep in mind that this is before Rome formulated legionary doctrine, so facing the phalanx is a wee bit difficult at this stage of the game.

[HaemishM]

I've just started a game with Stainless Steel enabled. It's SLOW. I'm not sure if I like the supply lines mechanic or not, but I must admit the battles are much better. My Fatmid Caliphate armies had to watch Kingdom of Jerusalem dismounted knights charge, pull back, then charge again. I managed to win, but the casualties were much higher than they would have been.

[dusematic]

How do they balance it so that Rome isn't a runaway power?  Do they start you off earlier so you're clawing for provinces?

Exactly.  It starts you off in 280 BC before Rome managed to subjugate most of Italy.  Southern Italy is still Magna Graecia (Greater Greece).  Keep in mind that this is before Rome formulated legionary doctrine, so facing the phalanx is a wee bit difficult at this stage of the game.

Well it already was tough going at the hoplites with velites and principes.  Basically, you had to have numerical advantage plus cavalry to win consistently.  Your forces simply took too much damage and lost too much morale too quickly to hold a decent line without imploding.

[Big Gulp]

I've just started a game with Stainless Steel enabled. It's SLOW. I'm not sure if I like the supply lines mechanic or not, but I must admit the battles are much better. My Fatmid Caliphate armies had to watch Kingdom of Jerusalem dismounted knights charge, pull back, then charge again. I managed to win, but the casualties were much higher than they would have been.

Yeah, that's what I love about the game.  I always thought of the European middle ages armies as basically barbarians compared to the Muslims.  They pretty much were but they also managed to come up with a really effective mix of combined arms tactics.  Particularly with heavy infantry and cavalry the Muslims just didn't have anything that could match it until the Ottomans came along.

You're tempted into thinking that playing the Moors or the Fatimid Empire will be a cakewalk since they're so rich, but when you've got waves of heavy infantry/cavalry crusaders washing over your territory you start to rethink that.

[Big Gulp]

Well it already was tough going at the hoplites with velites and principes.  Basically, you had to have numerical advantage plus cavalry to win consistently.  Your forces simply took too much damage and lost too much morale too quickly to hold a decent line without imploding.

Stretch out your lines.  Most common mistake I see people make is to go for defense in depth, which is basically what the phalanx represents.  Stretch those bitches out, and when they attack your center you can wrap around their units with your wings.  Granted, you don't have much staying power, and this also doesn't work great in cities, but for the open field it works like a charm.

[HaemishM]

You're tempted into thinking that playing the Moors or the Fatimid Empire will be a cakewalk since they're so rich, but when you've got waves of heavy infantry/cavalry crusaders washing over your territory you start to rethink that.

Hell no. They may be rich, but I had been playing as the English, whose cavalry is really weak. I was used to relying on static formations of longbow with flanking cavarly attacks and hope for some decent foot troops. Having most of my cavalry be of the brittle variety (or of the missle variety) is a huge shift in thinking, especially when about half my foot troops are likely militia level or worse.

[Big Gulp]

You're tempted into thinking that playing the Moors or the Fatimid Empire will be a cakewalk since they're so rich, but when you've got waves of heavy infantry/cavalry crusaders washing over your territory you start to rethink that.

Hell no. They may be rich, but I had been playing as the English, whose cavalry is really weak. I was used to relying on static formations of longbow with flanking cavarly attacks and hope for some decent foot troops. Having most of my cavalry be of the brittle variety (or of the missle variety) is a huge shift in thinking, especially when about half my foot troops are likely militia level or worse.

To be honest I used to play really artillery heavy, and I still tend to have a couple of units around just for general mayhem/fun, but I've really taken a shine to cavalry.  Right now I'm playing the Danes, and I'm in love with mounted huscarls (axemen).  I've been going through Novgorod like a hot knife through butter with a light infantry/heavy cavalry strategy.

You're right, though.  Missile cavalry is a huge shift in tactical thinking, and I'm still not great with them.  I'm too used to thinking of my cavalry as shock troops, and missile cavalry just don't fill that role.

[dusematic]

I thought the most effective use of missile cavalry is just to wear the enemy down.  I would make huge 20 unit armies of missile cavalry, and that much fire power will lay waste to marching enemies.  Infantry cant catch up, and enemy cavalry will be able to make a charge, but will quickly succumb to the rain of arrows. 

The problem with this strategy is that it's boring.  The battles take forever as you expend your ammo before you engage.  I guess there are other uses for missile cavalry, but I can't see a more effective use.

[HaemishM]

Flanking skirmishers, taking out artillery if it's been left in the back, or just as a delaying tactic (keep the big heavy cavalry pinned under missle fire away from your squishy milita infantry).

[Morat20]

You're right, though.  Missile cavalry is a huge shift in tactical thinking, and I'm still not great with them.  I'm too used to thinking of my cavalry as shock troops, and missile cavalry just don't fill that role.

Wasn't missile calvary -- the "Shoot two arrows, ride away, shoot two more" -- tactic what led to the various Mongols beating the shit out of Europe over and over again?

I haven't played Medieval 2 -- it's on my "I should try that" list -- but longbows and mounted archers should fuck with your opponents. I mean, keeping the real cavalary off your archers is the real problem with regular archers, but mounted archers -- ones that don't have to dismount to fire -- should be the bees knees.

[Yoru]

Reports are trickling in that the E:TW demo is due out in a few hours on Steam.

[Big Gulp]

Reports are trickling in that the E:TW demo is due out in a few hours on Steam.

Oh shit.  And I'm supposed to start moving today (okay, boxing stuff up, at any rate).  Why must they test my will like this???   

[Yoru]

Priorities. Which is more important: a new house, or birthing the free world with the blood of a thousand redcoats? 

[Big Gulp]

I haven't played Medieval 2 -- it's on my "I should try that" list -- but longbows and mounted archers should fuck with your opponents. I mean, keeping the real cavalary off your archers is the real problem with regular archers, but mounted archers -- ones that don't have to dismount to fire -- should be the bees knees.

Oh, they're a major problem.  Even with regular cavalry they're hard to run down unless you can get lucky and sandwich them between another unit.  The problem is, like I said, that they're not really shock units.  They can whittle down your forces and be a real pain in the ass, but if you're used to treating your cavalry like a hammer in the western tradition it's hard getting your head around how to properly use mounted archers/javelin tossers.

Also, like Haemish said, the muslim powers have really squishy infantry units.  Think only slightly better than peasants.  You can work with that if you have a really solid core of heavy hitting cavalry, but these guys don't fill that role of supporting weak infantry.

[Big Gulp]

Priorities. Which is more important: a new house, or birthing the free world with the blood of a thousand redcoats? 

How about uniting Germany 150 years before Bismarck did it under the glorious Prussian banner?  Moving is already something I'm dreading...

[Grand Design]

According to Shacknews, you have two hours until the demo is released on Steam.

Chop chop, get moving.

[NowhereMan]

I am going away for the weekend and this news has made me not want to see old friends. Hopefully I will overcome this on arriving and not spend a weekend sitting in a corner going, "Damnit I could be massacring the upstart Prussians and decimating English regiments in the name of Imperial France right now!" Which no doubt would lead to some odd looks.

[Morat20]

Oh, they're a major problem.  Even with regular cavalry they're hard to run down unless you can get lucky and sandwich them between another unit.  The problem is, like I said, that they're not really shock units.  They can whittle down your forces and be a real pain in the ass, but if you're used to treating your cavalry like a hammer in the western tradition it's hard getting your head around how to properly use mounted archers/javelin tossers.

Also, like Haemish said, the muslim powers have really squishy infantry units.  Think only slightly better than peasants.  You can work with that if you have a really solid core of heavy hitting cavalry, but these guys don't fill that role of supporting weak infantry.

Oh, okay. Yeah, they're hit-and-run sorts. They're supposed to avoid melee engagements, and really should avoid anyone with a longer range than them.

[Grand Design]

Demo is up on Steam.  Its ~2 gigs.

[Yoru]

Demo description says you get to play as the English, first trying to beat up Washington during the American Revolutionary War, and the second trying to roughhouse some Frenchies at some point or another.

Downloading at the positively zippy speed of 50kb/sec.

[HaemishM]

I'm downloading the demo now, but it looks like it won't finish before lunch time, which means I'll have to redownload it tonight after work.

[Grand Design]

Well, I was hoping to see the new campaign map, but the demo is only a land battle and a sea battle.

[Big Gulp]

Oh, okay. Yeah, they're hit-and-run sorts. They're supposed to avoid melee engagements, and really should avoid anyone with a longer range than them.

Tell me that when you've played the game.  Weak infantry + squishy, need to keep your distance cavalry = unsupported, vulnerable infantry.  Unsupported infantry tend to die a lot.

[Morat20]

Tell me that when you've played the game.  Weak infantry + squishy, need to keep your distance cavalry = unsupported, vulnerable infantry.  Unsupported infantry tend to die a lot.

I'll happily agree that they're completly not suited for protecting weak infrantry. They're not suited for protection, period.

I don't know if that's the role M2 wants to pigeonhole them in -- seems unlikely -- but they're, by nature, light offensive units. They can be really, really, REALLY nasty if used right, but "protecting infantry" is not a proper use.

I'm speaking historically here, and not game-specific. I can't imagine M2's game mechanics encourage them to protect infantry. I do agree it'd suck monkey nuts if that was ALL you had to keep real cavalry off your infantry.

[dusematic]

Dude like I said earlier, you put them in that formation where they ride in circles firing on the enemy.  You just have massive hordes riding in circles and raining death.  It works great.  If they send cavalry in, you focus fire and draw them away, then swarm them.  Infantry will never get close.  Works great.  The problem is, like I said above, that it's BORING.  The battles take forever whittling down troops this way and being elusive. 

[Big Gulp]

Dude like I said earlier, you put them in that formation where they ride in circles firing on the enemy.  You just have massive hordes riding in circles and raining death.  It works great.  If they send cavalry in, you focus fire and draw them away, then swarm them.  Infantry will never get close.  Works great.  The problem is, like I said above, that it's BORING.  The battles take forever whittling down troops this way and being elusive. 

It also doesn't work for taking cities, which is the majority of where you do your fighting if you're doing it right.

[Morat20]

Dude like I said earlier, you put them in that formation where they ride in circles firing on the enemy.  You just have massive hordes riding in circles and raining death.  It works great.  If they send cavalry in, you focus fire and draw them away, then swarm them.  Infantry will never get close.  Works great.  The problem is, like I said above, that it's BORING.  The battles take forever whittling down troops this way and being elusive. 

Well, boring = good. Exciting generally meant you might lose. :) Don't know about taking cities. I can't remember how the Mongols did it. Probably avoided fortified cities -- they don't seem the "lay seige" type.

[HaemishM]

The Mongols tended to get siege weapons down when they took over the Chinese empire. Plus, they could always just starve your ass out, or even better, bypass your fortified point and leave you following in the trail of their army. No one could move faster on the march than the Mongols and by the time you figured out they'd just slaughtered your reinforcements, you realized that you had to leave the castle eventually.

[Morat20]

The Mongols tended to get siege weapons down when they took over the Chinese empire. Plus, they could always just starve your ass out, or even better, bypass your fortified point and leave you following in the trail of their army. No one could move faster on the march than the Mongols and by the time you figured out they'd just slaughtered your reinforcements, you realized that you had to leave the castle eventually.

Fuck, I need a good war game now. I suck at them, but I like playing them.

[Big Gulp]

Anyone else having big problems with the demo?  Like incredibly long load times and screen flicker?

[dusematic]

Dude like I said earlier, you put them in that formation where they ride in circles firing on the enemy.  You just have massive hordes riding in circles and raining death.  It works great.  If they send cavalry in, you focus fire and draw them away, then swarm them.  Infantry will never get close.  Works great.  The problem is, like I said above, that it's BORING.  The battles take forever whittling down troops this way and being elusive. 

It also doesn't work for taking cities, which is the majority of where you do your fighting if you're doing it right.

That's part of my problem with these games.  Too many siege battles.  They're ok once in awhile, but I'd like to see more field battles.

[HaemishM]

Anyone else having big problems with the demo?  Like incredibly long load times and screen flicker?

I've had to force quit on it 3 times on my work computer. It runs like ass on low settings (but this computer has an 8400GS - a shitty shit shit card). But goddamn is it gorgeous. The naval battles are poetry in motion. It takes the Medieval engine and turns it up a notch.

[Yoru]

Runs okay on mine at medium/high settings, after I upgraded my graphics drivers. It CTDed on startup with un-upgraded drivers. I got some flickering during the first tutorial but it went away after about 2 minutes. I proceeded to play the 2 tutorials and 2 standalone battles without problems, although the load times were certainly atrocious.

On land, it's basically M2 with guns, which is cool. The naval battles are more fun, I think, since you can micromanage the shit out of your ships if you want.

It's also funny watching the computer use historically-accurate ship-o-th'-line tactics,  and then get smashed to fucking pieces when you start micromanaging broadsides and doing tricks with maneuverability that would capsize real ships.

I'll probably wait until I either have a moment of weakness or it goes 25%-off or half-off on Steam before picking it up.

[Big Gulp]

Runs okay on mine at medium/high settings, after I upgraded my graphics drivers. It CTDed on startup with un-upgraded drivers. I got some flickering during the first tutorial but it went away after about 2 minutes. I proceeded to play the 2 tutorials and 2 standalone battles without problems, although the load times were certainly atrocious.

Yeah, I finally got it working.  Turns out that it flakes out if you have anti-aliasing turned on through the Catalyst drivers.

I don't think I like the default speed of the game.  I'm too used to Rome/Medieval unit speed, but in this infantry just streaks across the screen like they were cavalry.  And man, the prevalence of cannons really make you pay attention to terrain a lot more than the other games do.  Really nice seeing the cannonballs skip across the ground plowing through multiple units, though.  I can tell I'll be back to my old artillery heavy ways with this game.

[Yoru]

Yeah, I opened by taking the high ground on the enemy's flank and letting my artillery rip. Took out their general pretty much right off the bat, at which point the idiot AI made him charge into the right wing of my main battle line. No more general.

As you'd expect with gunpowder-era units, terrain is huge, infantry on a ridge destroy other infantry, and cavalry charging into a hail of gunfire get cut down right quick.