Empire: Total War

[dusematic]

There was a poopload of bugs in M2. The calvary thing was mainly because, previously, you could just double click to make the dudes "run" and they'd charge.  That's intuitive.  In M2, they would "run" at the enemy and engage, but wouldn't charge, they'd just run with their swords out and engage normally.  Usually, to get a proper charge with lances, you'd have to get them situated so they were lined up perfectly, and then click once, and they'd trot out towards the destination, and when they reached closing distance, they'd lower their lances and start charging.  This was harder to accomplish, but still not too bad once you realized what was going on (I didn't until I read about it).  Basically the whole game was a fucking fiasco.  Nothing worked.  Bugs.  Tons of combat bugs.  Watered down.  Laughably easy.  Same strategy everytime.  Ridiculous micromanagement required for efficacious use of spies, assassins, merchants, etc.  I swore I'd never buy another CA game.

So why am I thinking I'm going to buy Empire now?  I'm pathetic.

[acerogue26]

There was a poopload of bugs in M2. The calvary thing was mainly because, previously, you could just double click to make the dudes "run" and they'd charge.  That's intuitive.  In M2, they would "run" at the enemy and engage, but wouldn't charge, they'd just run with their swords out and engage normally.  Usually, to get a proper charge with lances, you'd have to get them situated so they were lined up perfectly, and then click once, and they'd trot out towards the destination, and when they reached closing distance, they'd lower their lances and start charging.  This was harder to accomplish, but still not too bad once you realized what was going on (I didn't until I read about it).  Basically the whole game was a fucking fiasco.  Nothing worked.  Bugs.  Tons of combat bugs.  Watered down.  Laughably easy.  Same strategy everytime.  Ridiculous micromanagement required for efficacious use of spies, assassins, merchants, etc.  I swore I'd never buy another CA game.

So why am I thinking I'm going to buy Empire now?  I'm pathetic.

It was totally because you saw the horses leaping over fences in their charge. Let's not kid ourselves about how awesome that is.

[dusematic]

I mean, the idea they have is flawless.  The execution has been suspect for awhile.  Essentially they are remaking the same goddamn game with different skins over and over again.  I'm fine with this if it yields results that at least maintain a status quo.  It's the backsliding that disgusts me.  But cavalry jumping fences will bring me back every time.  Works every time, 60% of the time.

[Grand Design]

Supposedly Empire is not just a reskin as Medieval was.

Anyway, pre-ordered.

[Big Gulp]

Supposedly Empire is not just a reskin as Medieval was.

Anyway, pre-ordered.

Hell, I'd be fine with a prettier reskin in the gunpowder era.  My $50 would be completely justified.  Adding in naval combat?  Bitch, I'm there.

Keep in mind how rare game developers that cater to us grognards are beyond the usual RTS bullshit and just shell out the money.  You'll feel good about it, and you'll be encouraging further development.

[AngryGumball]

All I want is my fucking spies to go into another territory and fucking formulate revolt that I can see like Shogun Total War. As well as those damn vids were miles better. I'm also sick of getting dread status on my leaders cuz I make full use of my spies and assassins.

[NowhereMan]

I think the clearest example of backsliding is actually in the decrease in awesome FMV vids, though M2 was ok with this. The bugs and other stupid moves (the cavalry charge was more than a bit ) were also crappy. Like everyone else here though I will buy this when it comes out (and I have a computer that can run it).

[Morat20]

Will there be flaming pigs? I didn't realize that the ability to set pigs on fire and send them squealing into my enemy's ranks was important to me until I played R:TW, but it is.

Admittedly, I didn't think I'd spend so much of my time obsessing over elephants until I played R:TW (admittedly, I was playing Dwarf Fortress on the side.....).

The trailors look good. If it's as buggy as shit as Medieval 2, fuck that. If it's at least as playable as Rome, I'll get it.

[Paelos]

All I want is my fucking spies to go into another territory and fucking formulate revolt that I can see like Shogun Total War. As well as those damn vids were miles better. I'm also sick of getting dread status on my leaders cuz I make full use of my spies and assassins.

Seriously, WTF is up with that? It's damn near impossible to stay on the good side of the church and be chivilrous without being a total idiot. Release all the troops after every battle? Sure, that won't bite you in the ass. Never sack a city? Sure, who needs money anyway? Spy on other cities who are obviously plotting against you? No, we don't need that, we're nice. Assassinate that Inquistor who's trying to get a righteous kill on your family members? No, murder is wrong.

I mean hell, how are you supposed to play the game at all and NOT be dreaded. The system was horribly stupid. They just need to have Command, Management skill, and Loyalty.

[naum]

All I want is my fucking spies to go into another territory and fucking formulate revolt that I can see like Shogun Total War. As well as those damn vids were miles better. I'm also sick of getting dread status on my leaders cuz I make full use of my spies and assassins.

In Dominions 3, one of the races/nations (Arcosephale, mythical knockoff of ancient Greece) has a unit called a "Skeptic" — that basically goes into a enemy provinces and decreases God favor, and incites unrest… …has no military prowess like other "spy" units, but cheap and really was an interesting game piece…

[HaemishM]

I mean hell, how are you supposed to play the game at all and NOT be dreaded. The system was horribly stupid. They just need to have Command, Management skill, and Loyalty.

Welcome to the Middle Ages. It was not very hard at all to get on the bad side of the Church and be excommunicated. They banned the use of the crossbow against other Christians at one point - and very few paid any attention. The nobility used or ignored the Church as it suited their interests. As long as you were killing Muslims (or Jews), the Church loved you. Part of the original reason for the Crusades was to stop the nobility of Europe from warring against each other.

[Grand Design]

It sounds like most people have a problem with Medieval the time period and not Medieval the game.

[FatuousTwat]

It was the game.

[AngryGumball]

Why if my assassin completed a mission in killing someone else where he was not caught cause my dread status to raise. I know it sounds obvious. However why did it have to be my king that ordered that assassination if he completed it successfully without being caught. Could it not have just been a mysterious death.

It was taking away the roleplay image, that you were locked into being a Dread Leader.

And yes it was the game because I failed a high amount of 95% attempts either spying or assassin jobs.

[Big Gulp]

Welcome to the Middle Ages. It was not very hard at all to get on the bad side of the Church and be excommunicated. They banned the use of the crossbow against other Christians at one point - and very few paid any attention. The nobility used or ignored the Church as it suited their interests. As long as you were killing Muslims (or Jews), the Church loved you. Part of the original reason for the Crusades was to stop the nobility of Europe from warring against each other.

Or my favorite Holy Roman Emperor; Frederick II Hohenstaufen.  He promised the pope he'd go on crusade to take back Jerusalem, and then didn't go.  Pope excommunicates him and forbids him from now going on crusade.  Frederick ignores him and goes anyway, but he doesn't go in for the whole "kill the infidel, take the city" route.  Since he also ruled Sicily he was on really good terms with the various Muslim powers, so he just negotiated with them to get Jerusalem back.

So now the pope is in the situation of having excommunicated the guy who retook Jerusalem after 100 years of Muslim control without a drop of Christian blood being shed, and Frederick II is stuck with basically being a semi-heretic who is also one of the most successful crusaders ever.  In any case, the pope eventually drops the excommunication.  That doesn't last, though, and Frederick II is excommunicated one other time and also has a crusade called against him.

[NowhereMan]

I mean hell, how are you supposed to play the game at all and NOT be dreaded. The system was horribly stupid. They just need to have Command, Management skill, and Loyalty.

Welcome to the Middle Ages. It was not very hard at all to get on the bad side of the Church and be excommunicated. They banned the use of the crossbow against other Christians at one point - and very few paid any attention.

The thing was they included chivalry as a stat for your king but made it pretty much impossible to get. It basically acted as a penalty to dread rather than anything else but that wasn't something they really explained too well. I don't think a lot of people liked it being in there and it seems to me due more to the fact that aside from doing things that obviously harmed your own interests there didn't seem to be any way to gain it. I also didn't get the impression that not producing spies and assassins increased your chivalry, meaning it was difficult to gain in but very easy to lose.

[Big Gulp]

The thing was they included chivalry as a stat for your king but made it pretty much impossible to get. It basically acted as a penalty to dread rather than anything else but that wasn't something they really explained too well. I don't think a lot of people liked it being in there and it seems to me due more to the fact that aside from doing things that obviously harmed your own interests there didn't seem to be any way to gain it. I also didn't get the impression that not producing spies and assassins increased your chivalry, meaning it was difficult to gain in but very easy to lose.

Chivalry isn't actually all that hard to gain.  You know how in battles it'll ask you if you want to end the battle or continue it?  If you continue to run down the routing enemy units you stand a chance of gaining dread.  Let them go, and you stand a chance of gaining chivalry.  The same with hostages.  Ransoming them is the middle option, while releasing them grants chivalry, and executing them grants dread.  Founding a lot of churches grants chivalry.  Brothels and things like that the opposite.

[NowhereMan]

Ok, I knew about the prisoners thing but the main problem I found was that the game is a nightmare without using spies and assassins at the very least to counter enemy spies and assassins and the game seems to add on dread for training them or building the necessary buildings for them. At least that's my understanding of it but then I usually pumped out fleets of both along with priests so I may have skewed it somewhat.

I was going to complain that it's so much easier to play with dread rather than chivalry but then I realised that aspect of it is pretty accurate. I doubt the system will be in Empire though because it doesn't really fit the period, governance types for your empire could be interesting though, as will be how they handle the faction leader for the US.

[Paelos]

The truth is that it's easy to be chivilrous early. However, the gains of prancing around like a goody-two-shoes once you own 20 regions become meaningless. Hell in my current game I own 6 spots on the college of cardinals, and I still got my ass excommunicated b/c the Pope has a hard-on for the Holy Roman Empire. You know, those dudes who keep attacking me, sending in assassins and spies, and trying to buy off all my merchants. I have all the major cathedrals, all the kickass priests and theological headquarters, and this fucker gets mad when I cut a few throats.

Time period or not, it's stupid game design when the Pope favors your opponents all the time to make things more difficult, even when they are doing the EXACT same shit as you if not worse.

[eldaec]

Favour of the church is driven by how much money you spend upgrading churches and generating Bishops.

Just like in real life.


The only influence your behaviour has on the matter is when you attack someone with prettier or uglier churches, the pope take the side of whoever spends the most on the church.

I find so long as I pick one high population territory and dedicate it to enormous churches and churning out bishops, I can do whatever the fuck I want and the pope still loves me.

EDIT : btw, having cardinals does jack shit as far as I can tell, other than letting you pick the pope. And a pope from country x will never let anyone attack that country - that seems to be the exception to the above.

[Big Gulp]

EDIT : btw, having cardinals does jack shit as far as I can tell, other than letting you pick the pope. And a pope from country x will never let anyone attack that country - that seems to be the exception to the above.

True, but controlling the papacy can be an absolute godsend.  I used to send out my assassins far and wide to kill cardinals.  Eventually I got to the point where the college of cardinals were all Germans with the exception of one Polish cardinal.  Yeah, life was sweet.

[Grand Design]

I had a cardinal voted in as Pope this weekend.  I immediately started attacking the factions I needed to, only to have my Pope die two turns later.  Sigh.

[dusematic]

Controlling the pope and declaring crusades is so OP.

[Morat20]

Controlling the pope and declaring crusades is so OP.

Nerf the Pope.

[dusematic]

Seriously.  Who cares how realistic something is if it's not balanced for good gameplay.

[Merusk]

Seriously.  Who cares how realistic something is if it's not balanced for good gameplay.

Wargamers?

[Paelos]

Seriously.  Who cares how realistic something is if it's not balanced for good gameplay.

Apparently a small, but very loud subsect of gamers. I don't enjoy being handcuffed by historical accuracy personally. If they coincide politely, that's fine.

[dusematic]

Yeah, I guess.  I think a lot of times people SAY they want shit that isn't fun, and THINK they do.  Lots of times when things aren't realistic it's just a sloppy mistake or poor design implementation.  But if there is a feature that fundamentally unbalances a game, the integrity of the game should take precedence.  Anyway, the realism of sending out a squad of assassins to insure one of your clergymen gets elected pope, and then the complete ease with which you can then get him to declare crusades, is suspect.  Not to mention that all crusades are more or less equal as far as effectiveness.   

But what's REALLY important is whether anyone has seen this:  http://store.steampowered.com/app/10600/

That's right, a special edition version of Empire: Total Wars that is TWENTY dollars more than the regular version of the game.  What do you receive for 20 dollars?  Six units.  Six.  That's basically a punch in the dick to all the hardcore Total War fans.

[Grand Design]

When Steam offered that option to me instead of the vanilla pre-order, I was pretty incredulous.

[dusematic]

Perhaps the biggest special edition ripoff I've ever seen.  Could they at least throw in a art book or behind the scenes dvd? 

[Grand Design]

I was amused, honestly.  You know there are neckbeards out there who lavish in the thought that they have those six shiny units.




You know who you are.

[dusematic]

The HMS Victoria does sound pretty useful...

[Paelos]

I was amused, honestly.  You know there are neckbeards out there who lavish in the thought that they have those six shiny units.




You know who you are.

Morons? I'm sorry but the accountant in me screams WAY too loud at paying 33% more for nothing.

[Big Gulp]

Morons? I'm sorry but the accountant in me screams WAY too loud at paying 33% more for nothing.

Yep.  Besides, the only reason I'll be playing vanilla Empire is because mods won't be out for it yet.  I can't be the only person who only plays Rome with the Total Realism mod enabled, or Medieval II with Stainless Steel enabled.

These mods change the whole game, they don't just add some shiny units.

ETA:  Rome Total Realism really is a must own mod.  I absolutely hated how they divvied up the Roman empire into three "families".  Completely ahistorical and silly.  This gets rid of that.  The only thing sort of bad about it is that you're going to be fighting a shitload of phalanxes.  Basically any civilized state is going to be fighting on the Greek model.  There'll be some differences here and there, like elephants or chariots, but the infantry will primarily be hoplites.

[dusematic]

How do they balance it so that Rome isn't a runaway power?  Do they start you off earlier so you're clawing for provinces?